In his long-anticipated appearance via videotape, President Bill Clinton refuted the testimony of the government's main witness, David Hale. Although the press has sought copies of the videotaped examination, Clinton has said he wants only transcripts to be released to avoid later "attack ads" during this fall's Presidential campaign. Elizabeth Farnsworth discusses the trial and the testimony with Los Angeles Times reporter Sara Fritz, who has been covering the Whitewater story.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: President Clinton's videotaped testimony is the centerpiece of the defense in the bank fraud and conspiracy trial of James and Susan McDougal and Arkansas Governor Jim Guy Tucker. The McDougals and Tucker are on trial in a case brought by Whitewater independent counsel Kenneth Starr.

Jim McDougal and Governor Tucker are accused of scheming to get $3 million in illegal loans. Susan McDougal faces four fraud counts involving a $300,000 government-backed small business loan. Prosecutors say the loan was never used for its stated purpose but was utilized, instead, by the McDougals to purchase and improve land and cover debts. About $50,000 of the money was used to pay for land owned by the Whitewater Development Corporation. President and Mrs. Clinton were partners in that venture with the McDougals between 1978 and 1992.

President Clinton was called as a witness for the McDougals to counter statements by prosecution witness David Hale, whose Little Rock company arranged for the small business loan to Susan McDougal. Hale has testified that in 1986, he was pressured by then-Governor Clinton to make the loan to McDougal. President Clinton was questioned under oath for three and a half hours on April 28th at the White House. At a press conference today, the President spoke about his testimony.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, my testimony will speak for itself. It will be fairly straightforward. All I want the American people to understand is that I was asked to testify because they thought I might have some evidence that was helpful, and I was glad to testify, and then what I said would be a matter of public record when it's run. If it's run this afternoon, it will be. I believe the press should have access to my testimony. I just think that it ought to be treated like everybody else's testimony in federal court, and it shouldn't be subject to abuse or, or misconstruction.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: For a report on what happened in the courtroom today in Little Rock, we turn to Sara Fritz of the Los Angeles Times, who has been covering the Whitewater story. Thanks for being with us, Sara. Would you describe the scene in the courtroom today.

SARA FRITZ, Los Angeles Times: (Little Rock) Well, until today, this trial has been kind of a sleepy little event that got only modest news attention. Today, however, the courtroom was packed with reporters from all over the country, spectators. They were literally sitting on the edge of their seats watching the President's testimony on a large screen television. There was so much tension in the room that when the President tossed off a kind of joke at the beginning of his testimony, there was a ripple of nervous laughter through the room. In contrast, the President was extremely relaxed and self-confident. He made a number of asides. He was--even seemed to be enjoying the reminiscences he was having of his relationships with the three defendants.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Did you see only him in the tape, or did you see the lawyers too?

MS. FRITZ: Only the President.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What was the most important part of the testimony, in your view?

MS. FRITZ: Well, I think, uh, in terms of the trial, itself, it was his denial that he had put pressure on David Hale, the government's chief witness, to loan money to these defendants, and in a sense denying or in a very real way denying the crime at the heart of this conspiracy. In a larger context, however, it had a lot of political importance for the President, himself. This is the first time the President has testified in public, under oath about Whitewater. And so since he is not on trial here, this is really probably as close as he'll come to proving his innocence, and I'm sure the people in the White House are very happy tonight that the President was not tripped up by the independent counsel who questioned him.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: On that crucial question of whether he pressured David Hale, could you describe that testimony. Was the question asked several times, one time?

MS. FRITZ: It was asked at least a dozen times, if not more, first in a very perfunctory way by the defense, and then more intensely by the prosecution. And he denied it repeatedly until at the end as the testimony was coming to a close and he was asked one more time by Ray Yon, the prosecutor, "did you put pressure on Mr. Hale?", there was clearly irritation in his voice.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And explain why this testimony was so important for the defense. Put this in a little bit of context for us.

MS. FRITZ: Well, the defendants have denied that any of these crimes took place, that there was any conspiracy among them to defraud the government, or these government-backed institutions, or that these transactions were, indeed, criminal. And the defense is relying almost entirely on the word of the President, the credibility of the President to persuade the jury that this was not a conspiracy that involved him or any of these defendants.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And you're talking about McDougal here, both McDougals?

MS. FRITZ: The McDougals and Governor Jim Guy Tucker.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Uh-huh. The President first testified for the defense, as I understand it, in taking the testimony in the White House, the defense got the first shot, right?

MS. FRITZ: Right.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Describe how that went.

MS. FRITZ: Well, that was very perfunctory. They--each of the defense lawyers stood up and asked questions pertinent to their client. Did you do this? Did you do that? And the President persistently denied any knowledge of any of these crimes. And that part of the testimony only took about 20 minutes. The rest of it was taken up by the prosecution.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Describe that too, because that's many hours of testimony. What else was in that material?

MS. FRITZ: Right. The prosecution first spent a great deal of time reviewing all of the Whitewater transactions. Whitewater, as you recall, is the investment that the Clintons and the McDougals had together in a resort development up in the Ozarks, and--

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Just remind us the tie is that some of the money that was loaned by Hale went to, to buy some Whitewater property.

MS. FRITZ: There is no proof that the President or Mrs. Clinton benefited by that money that passed through the Whitewater account but it did pass through the Whitewater account, and so even though Whitewater has been really tangential in this trial, they went through all of the Whitewater transactions and you got the impression that this is the interview that they would have done of the President if they could have brought him to trial.

And then they moved on to the meetings the President might have been involved in that related to the crimes in this case, the most crucial being the meeting in which Hale claims that he met with both the President and Mr. McDougal and they arranged this $300,000 loan that you referred to in your opening. And the President really made light of that and said, no, no, that didn't exist, and joked about how he couldn't have gone to a meeting far off in South Little Rock wearing jogging shorts since it was too far to jog.

The other meetings he discussed in detail were one that McDougal says he had with the President, then governor of Arkansas, in which McDougal claims Clinton came in, into his office at Madison Guaranty, and asked him to put Mrs. Clinton on retainer as a lawyer for Madison. McDougal says he remembers this because the President left perspiration stains on his chair, but the President says he has no recollection of that meeting.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Sara, how unusual is it for sitting President, a President in office, to, to be asked to give this kind of testimony and to give it?

MS. FRITZ: It's unusual but certainly not unprecedented. It goes back to the beginnings of some of the first Presidents gave depositions in, in criminal trials, and as you'll recall, many of the recent Presidents have also done so. Now it seems to be standard practice that these depositions are done by videotape.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Where does the trial go from here? What happens next?

MS. FRITZ: Well, the defense rested. Immediately after the President's testimony was shown, and so the next step is closing arguments and then jury deliberation.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Well, Sara Fritz, thanks for being with us.

MS. FRITZ: Thank you.

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