|
|
 |
|
 |
 |
| THE ROAD TO THE HAGUE | |
 June 25, 2001  |
|
|
Yugoslavia votes to extradite former president Slobodan Milosevic to the Hague on war crimes charges.
|
|
|
MIROLJUB LABUS, Deputy Prime Minister: I think that there has to be a line of extraditions, a line of surrendering our people to the Hague. The indictments that are out, there is no arguing about them. The indicted people have to go to the Hague.
Milosevic was jailed in April, officially on corruption charges. But internal pressure for his extradition has been growing in Yugoslavia, especially since the recent discovery near Belgrade of the bodies of some 800 ethnic Albanians killed in Kosovo. Those atrocities are now being investigated by a former chief of the Serb secret police.
TOMA FILA, Milosevic attorney: There is no legal backup for this decision. Our laws and constitution do not recognize this. We appealed against this to the constitutional court, but we have to see what will happen, not only in this case, but also in the other cases against Serbian citizens. RAY SUAREZ: Currently the Yugoslav constitution doesn't allow for extradition of its citizens for trial by a foreign government, but the Hague court is an international tribunal. |
 |
||||||||||||||||||
| Cooperating with the Tribunal | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
RAY SUAREZ: For more on sending Milosevic to the Hague, we turn to Charles Ingrao, Professor of History at Purdue University. He is currently writing a book about ethnic conflict in central Europe. And Nina Bang-Jensen, special counsel for the Coalition for International Justice, a private group with offices in Washington and the Hague that assists the International War Crimes Tribunal in its work. Charles Ingrao, months after Milosevic was jailed, even further months after his government fell, why now?
RAY SUAREZ: Nina Bang-Jensen, do you think it's just the money or is the internal situation changing with revelations like the mass graves, the revelations concerning Milosevic and the huge bank bankruptcy? NINA BANG-JENSEN: I certainly think that those are huge factors that people believe it or not didn't really understand what was done in their name by Slobodan Milosevic. I agree with Charles that the principal factor is the donor's conference coming up. They are desperate for this money. |
 |
|||||||||||||||||||
| Possible delays | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
RAY SUAREZ: And was there a political evolution on the part of the current government when Kostunica took office he seemed to insist that this was something that could be handled internally?
RAY SUAREZ: But, Charles Ingrao, did Kostunica's insistence that this could be handled by Yugoslavia crumble under the pressure that he got when he ventured outside the country to the rest of the world? CHARLES INGRAO: Well, he did go to Washington a few weeks ago and up until then he had been lambasting the ICTY. When he came back those criticisms stopped. So, that certainly is one of the reasons. But I think you have to realize he's a rational actor, he's a Serbian patriot. He understands that Serbia needs to make changes. Because of the financial incentives and the opposition as Nina has pointed out within the democratic coalition he was the last person in the coalition to sign off on delivering Milosevic to the Hague but he went along with it because he understands that that's necessary. RAY SUAREZ: Let's talk a little bit about the practical effect. I notice that there was no airplane at a Belgrade runway waiting to whisk him away to the Netherlands. This decree opens the door but didn't deliver Milosevic. How long might this take?
RAY SUAREZ: You've read the decree, Nina. Are you as optimistic as Charles Ingrao about the timetable? NINA BANG-JENSEN: Regrettably I'm not. There's already been a constitutional challenge by Mr. Milosevic's lawyer. So that in itself will cause delays before they even get to the timetable which is any order from the tribunal can be challenged, sent to a five-judge panel and then sent in 15 days from there to the Supreme Court. But the whole issue of this decree, while we're all celebrating it and certainly there's very good language about urgent cooperation, there are tremendous number of obstacles in this decree. |
 |
|||||||||||||||||||
| Problems with the decree | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
RAY SUAREZ: Like what? NINA BANG-JENSEN: Well, for example, it says that, this decree, which is supposed to address the issue that Yugoslavia contended that its constitution does not permit the extradition of Yugoslav citizens. The decree says that the cooperation is dependent on cooperation not contravening the Constitution. So it's a totality that is a very important provision. There are other things in it that suggest substantive scrutiny of the underlying indictments.
RAY SUAREZ: Professor, do you share some of these concerns? CHARLES INGRAO: Yes, in fact, one of the stumbling blocks is the Yugoslav Justices who will pass judgment on these appeals are themselves Milosevic appointees. So what we're depending on now is you have Milosevic at the top of the pyramid and the people who actively supported him over the last decade are being called upon to switch sides. My bet is that enough of them will because they want to be co-opted by the new system to stay in power. One of the good things that I think Kostunica has done is he's reassured many of the people under Milosevic that if they play ball with the new democratic coalition that there will be a future for them in Serbia. So I think we're banking on getting that cooperation. But one thing is for sure. If we don't get that cooperation, Serbia gets no money from the United States. The bottom line is, therefore, there will be cooperation and it's only a matter of time. RAY SUAREZ: Let me return to your pessimistic read of the decree because also contained in it are provisions that almost reassure the reader that they're dealing with a very normal country. It welcomes the tribunal to examine forensic records, looks for assistance the interview and gathering of evidence from Yugoslav citizens, allows the tribunal investigative and police powers on Yugoslav soil. NINA BANG-JENSEN: Those provisions are good, but thoroughly unnecessary. The problem is when you enact a law that's unnecessary you provide all sorts of opportunities for lawyers to challenge and to slow things down. There's absolutely crystal clear.... |
 |
|||||||||||||||||||
| The opinions of ordinary Serbs | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
RAY SUAREZ: But these are the kinds of things up couldn't get from Yugoslavia not that long ago. Why do you say unnecessary? NINA BANG-JENSEN: Because it isn't necessary as a matter of law. They could have done these things and they should be doing them right now. All you do... It's a political document. It's not a judicial document. We have to accept that political documents are important and helpful. But in this circumstance it's going to cause further delays. Unfortunately the concern is it's going to cause delays that will only be resolved after the donors conference. So in other words, we'll see this as a demonstration of good faith, which we should. There's certainly people within the government who are doing the right thing. But unless we have concrete proof prior to the donors' conference, I certainly hope that the United States is not going to participate. RAY SUAREZ: Charles Ingrao, you mentioned the fate of other suspects and other people accused of war crimes. Probably the best-known unarrested people from that part of the world are Mladic and Karadzic from the Bosnian civil war. Does this change their situation at all, if you can catch a big fish like Milosevic?
There were five total among the major figures who have to be delivered. I would say of all of these individuals, I'd like to see Mladic go first and we have to find out where he is, but these people are just at the top of the pyramid. What we need to realize is that this is an historian or a social scientist would say the really important impact is at the bottom of the pyramid. The 10 million Serbian people who elected Milosevic, who re-elected him, who supported him at every stage in all of these conflicts. And the war crimes trials will eventually bring them around, as will press coverage as it has already begun to do. That's the real pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. RAY SUAREZ: Your thoughts in response?
RAY SUAREZ: But a guy like Karadzic who is believed to be in the Bosnian-Serb area, does this as a practical matter turn up the heat on him? NINA BANG-JENSEN: I would think so. I would think he should be frightened now. I would think that if there's positive development in Belgrade it will worry some of his body guards, worry some of his supporters that they will not get the financial and political support that they had been relying on maintain their power. RAY SUAREZ: Nina Bang-Jensen and Charles Ingrao, thank you both. |
 |
|||||||||||||||||||
| |||||
 | |||||
| |||||
|
|
| |||
| |||||
| |||||
| Support the kind of journalism done by the NewsHour...Become a member of your local PBS station. | |||||
RAY
SUAREZ: The Yugoslav parliament had been deadlocked for weeks over extraditing
former President Milosevic and 15 other Yugoslavs indicted for war crimes
by an international tribunal. The cabinet of President Vojislav Kostunica
took the matter in its hands Saturday, and issued a decree that paved
the way for Milosevic and others to be sent to the Hague tribunal for
trial. 
RAY
SUAREZ: The U.N. War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague was established in 1993
to prosecute crimes against humanity committed during the wars in former
Yugoslavia. Milosevic was indicted in 1999, in the midst of the Kosovo
war, for alleged war crimes against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. More
than 3,000 Kosovar Albanians are still missing. Milosevic was ousted
as President last October after a disputed election brought mass protests.
Initially, his successor, Kostunica, and other Serb nationalists in
parliament had been reluctant to force the extradition of Milosevic
and other accused war criminals in Yugoslavia to the Hague Tribunal.
For months, the new president said Milosevic should be tried in a Yugoslav
court.
And
pressure from the outside world was also intensifying: International
donors, including the United States, called for the extradition of Milosevic
in return for at least $1 billion in aid to rebuild the devastated and
bankrupt economy. An international donors' conference is scheduled to
begin later this week. Today Milosevic's lawyers filed a challenge against
the Yugoslav government's extradition decree. They said the Yugoslav
and Serb constitutions don't allow for such a decree.
CHARLES
INGRAO: Well, it really has a lot to do with money. When we bombed Serbia
in 1999 during the Kosovo War a lot of damage was done to the infrastructure.
Serbia needs to rebuild. Of course ten years of sanctions before that
have had a cumulative effect. The United States and its allies have
agreed to help rebuild, but the principle of conditionality. The Serbs
have to cooperate with the international criminal tribunal. The first
deadline was March 31, and the Serbs met that by arresting Milosevic
just a few minutes after the deadline and by sending two Bosnian Serb
indictees to the Hague. This donors' conference will be attended by
the Europeans but the United States has a firmer position in saying
we will not participate unless something substantial happens, whether
he is delivered to the Hague or other major Serb war criminals.
NINA
BANG-JENSEN: There is an evolution. Certainly there's been a battle
between the alliance, between the coalition government -- increasingly
as these dates have approached. For example, the March 31 date was a
date under something called the McConnell-Leahy law, a law enacted by
those two Senators, which said that the U.S. could not vote yes or give
bilateral aid unless certain things happened. Now we're at the next
deadline, which is the donors' conference and there will be other things
coming up, other votes of the international financial institutions.
So they know that taxpayers around the world are not going to hand over
hundreds of millions or billions of dollars unless they see that they
like any U.N. member will honor their obligations under international
law. 
CHARLES
INGRAO: Well, I think the absolute longest is 23 days. I was told there
are a series of appeals he can make. But the conventional wisdom is
sometime in the next week or two that he would be delivered. Let me
say that delivering Milosevic is only one part of the puzzle. There
are other major war criminals who are on Serbian soil who have not been
delivered and the Serbs could deliver other individuals and still qualify
for the donors' conference for U.S. participation. But Milosevic is
obviously the one person who would have the cache to bring the U.S.
money in. 
For
example, it says that if a proceeding has begun in a Belgrade court
for any reason against any of these defendants, the tribunal presents
its indictment. There is a review first to see, a reasonable review
to make sure that the indictment is within the jurisdiction of the tribunal
and they have the right person. But then there is a review as to the
substance of the indictments by these five judges. No court, whether
in Croatia or Bosnia, has that authority. Under the Security Council
resolution that established the tribunal, which has a limited jurisdiction,
every member state of the United Nations and really every state in the
world is supposed to honor the orders of the court without intervention
by their own system. 
CHARLES
INGRAO: Well, it may not directly affect Karadzic and Mladic. Incidentally
the two of them recently in a poll in Serbia topped out as two of the
most popular Serbs to the Serbian people which leads us to another point
about what the problem beneath the problem is. But Karadzic is in Bosnia,
and his arrest will depend on the United States and the s-4 forces that
he's been living under the noses of for the last five years. Mladic
may be in Serbia as being protected by the Serbian military, the Yugoslav
military. The others are the former President of Serbia, the interior
ministry had, the former head of the army during the Kosovo war. 
NINA
BANG-JENSEN: I would say yes that they've been lied to for so long that
press coverage of these trials will be extremely important. I also am
more optimistic that there's a big change in Serbia, if there's demonstrated
cooperation in Serbia, the Serb entity within Bosnia will follow because
they usually follow the lead in Belgrade. In the past they followed
a bad lead. We hope now they follow what turns out to be a good lead.
