TRUST FUND QUESTIONS July 30, 1997 Transcript

The Online Explainers take your question on the investigation. The NewsHour's coverage of the Congressional Investigation. The inside stories on the political fight behind the public investigation. The investigation is big news in Washington, but how's it playing around the country. A closer look at the issues really under scrutiny by the Congress.

A RealAudio version of Kwame Holman's report on the hearing is available. KWAME HOLMAN: Charlie Ya Lin Trie is this week's central figure in the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee's investigation. The former Little Rock restaurant owner, seen here in 1996, followed his friend and customer, Bill Clinton to Washington, and later raised hundreds of thousands of dollars in questionable contributions for the Democratic Party. All the money was returned, and Trie, reportedly, is in China and refuses to testify. CHARLIE TRIE: I've got nothing to do. KWAME HOLMAN: But what the committee heard today was that Trie's fund-raising wasn't limited to the Democratic Party. Michael Cardozo heads the Presidential Legal Expense Trust, a private fund that pays President and Mrs. Clinton's legal expenses related to the Whitewater investigation and the Paul Jones sexual harassment lawsuit. The trust is overseen by a bipartisan group that includes prominent Washington insiders. MICHAEL CARDOZO, Presidential Legal Expense Trust: Among the trustees are two former attorney generals of the United States who are with me today: Mr. Elliott Richardson and Mr. Nicholas Katzenbach, both seated behind me. As well, there are three former university presidents and a distinguished theologian. KWAME HOLMAN: Under questioning from Republican Committee Attorney Mark Tipps, Cardozo testified he granted an appointment to Charlie Trie in 1996 based on Trie's friendship with the President. MARK TIPPS, Deputy Chief Counsel: And he told you also that he had become aware of the President's legal expenses and he had taken it upon himself to do something about that. And I think at about that time your testimony is he leaned down and pulled up an envelope and pulled another envelope out of that first envelope, is that correct? MICHAEL CARDOZO: Yes. There was a large envelope, which contained a second manila envelope. MARK TIPPS: All right, sir. And you pulled out that second manila envelope, and I believe your testimony was that a mound of checks and money orders came out onto the table at that point, is that correct? MICHAEL CARDOZO: Yes, it is. MARK TIPPS: And he told you that he had brought to the legal defense fund $460,000, is that right? MICHAEL CARDOZO: I think he said $469,000, but--yes-- MARK TIPPS: In that ball park. MICHAEL CARDOZO: Yes, yes. MARK TIPPS: Now, at this point in time, in your deposition, you told me that your--I believe your exact phrase was your suspicions were arising by the men. Is that an accurate portrayal of how you felt at about that time? MICHAEL CARDOZO: Yes, it is. KWAME HOLMAN: Cardozo testified Trie said the money came from Asian-Americans eager to help the President. But Cardozo said he decided to take his suspicions about the contributions to White House officials, including the First Lady. MARK TIPPS: And, as you told us, she didn't--she was not able to shed a whole lot of light on Mr. Trie, other than she remembered he was from Little Rock, and I believe she did know that he had a Chinese restaurant down there, is that accurate? MICHAEL CARDOZO: She required some prompting before she even recognized his name, and then she realized that he was the proprietor of the restaurant that the then governor liked to patronize for lunch. MARK TIPPS: Did you ask her any more questions about Mr. Trie to get any more background on him? MICHAEL CARDOZO: No, I did not. And I would like to point out that even at this early juncture, you know, we've gotten $460,000, we wanted to know if these were eligible contributions, we were not focused on Mr. Trie. Mr. Trie was not in the newspapers; he was not the subject of any congressional investigation; he was an unknown entity and was largely irrelevant to the Trust. He was the messenger. We wanted to know what was behind the messenger. KWAME HOLMAN: Finding that out, Cardozo said, involved having an aide examine the $460,000 in checks and money orders. MARK TIPPS: And she was finding, just to summarize some of the things you said in your opening statement, I believe, she was finding sequentially numbered money orders purchased in bulk. Some of them contained the same handwriting. On some of them the word "presidential" was misspelled with a "c-i-a-l" instead of a "t-i-a-l." And she was also finding--and on the money orders, by the way, even though they looked to be purchased in bulk and some of them filled out with the same hand, they were on behalf of people from all over the country, correct? MICHAEL CARDOZO: That is correct. MARK TIPPS: And she was also finding checks that had been written by one person on behalf of another, correct? MICHAEL CARDOZO: In some instances, yes. MARK TIPPS: In some instances. Mr. Trie came back on April 24th for the second batch of money, I think $179,000, is that correct? MICHAEL CARDOZO: He came--he requested a second meeting, came to my office, had a large sack with him, and said that in that sack he had another $170,000, which he would like to contribute to the Legal Expense Trust. I advised him that we had not finished evaluating the eligibility of the original contributions and we would not be able to accept whatever funds it was he had with him. I never saw the checks and money orders. MARK TIPPS: Never actually saw the money. MICHAEL CARDOZO: I never saw them. They were in an envelope, but he said they totaled $179,000. MARK TIPPS: What was your reaction when you saw him coming with that bag? MICHAEL CARDOZO: Well, it was a large shopping bag, and it was heavily laden, and I said to myself, oh, my God, he's got a million dollars this time. KWAME HOLMAN: Cardozo said the presidential trust's own investigation showed some of the contributions may have been coerced from members of a California Buddhist sect Charlie Trie was a member of. He said the trust eventually rejected all the contributions generated by Trie. MICHAEL CARDOZO: Michael Sovern, the former president of Columbia, said, you know, we're in a situation where we've got apples in a barrel. We've got a few--apparently, we have a few bad apples. Let's reject all the contributions because we've got a few bad apples. And that's what we did. KWAME HOLMAN: As has been the case at other times during these hearings, today's testimony evoked different conclusions from Republicans and Democrats. SEN. DICK DURBIN, (D) Illinois: I would like to get into the other aspect of this in terms of Mr. Trie as some sort of intermediary or pawn in this so-called international conspiracy involving the Chinese effort to affect the outcome of the presidential election. I think as you've gone on to describe some of your dealings with him, he is an unusual individual. To come in carrying $460,000 in money orders and checks and dump it on a conference table is highly unusual even by Washington standards, but then you go on to say that this man whom we suspect to be part of a Chinese spy network dumped this $460,000 in contributions on a table in a glass-enclosed conference room MICHAEL CARDOZO: Yes, he did. SEN. DICK DURBIN: Not much cloak to that dagger-- MICHAEL CARDOZO: Right. SEN. DICK DURBIN: --as I read it. SEN. ROBERT BENNETT, (R) Utah: My question, which is a rhetorical one, is that you smelled a rat when you met Charlie Trie. Your other trustees smelled a rat when they met Charlie Trie. But the folks at the White House and the Democratic National Committee allowed him to enter the White House 23 times and didn't seem to have the sense and antenna that you have. I think that's a fairly telling thing in this overall circumstance. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. KWAME HOLMAN: Committee Chairman Fred Thompson of Tennessee also said the committee will respond to what he sees as a slow response by the White House to committee requests for documents. SEN. FRED THOMPSON, Chairman, Governmental Affairs Committee: We have objected on several occasions. They were trying to manipulate the press and us by waiting until testimony had happened before relevant documents will be produced. Supposedly the story would then become old news. We're not going to tolerate that. Subpoenas have been prepared for all relevant documents. It's already been signed, awaiting committee consideration, and it will be issued later this week. KWAME HOLMAN: The hearings resume tomorrow.

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