OUTSIDE THE BELTWAY October 6, 1997 NewsHour Transcript

The Online Explainers take your question on the investigation. The NewsHour's coverage of the Congressional Investigation. The inside stories on the political fight behind the public investigation. The investigation is big news in Washington, but how's it playing around the country. A closer look at the issues really under scrutiny by the Congress.

A RealAudio version of this report is available. KWAME HOLMAN: The White House released some 90 minutes of videotape yesterday showing the opening moments of 44 White House coffees, most held in the so-called Map Room from August 1995 to August 1996. President Clinton and in one snippet Vice President Gore are seen greeting their guests, potential campaign donors. The ability to hear what's being said varies from segment to segment. The tapes were recorded by TV crews from the White House Communications Agency, a military unit that tapes White House events that are open to the press and some that are closed, including the coffees. WHITE HOUSE CAMERAMAN: This is 23 August 1996, coffee in the Map Room with Texans for Clinton. Closed event. KWAME HOLMAN: White House officials said the tapes were discovered just last week and sent over the weekend to congressional and Justice Department investigators looking into the Democrats' 1996 fund-raising practices. Among the segments, an April 1, 1996 coffee attended by major Democratic Party contributor and controversial businessman Roger Tamraz. A May 1, 1996 coffee held inside the Oval Office, the only coffee held there, according to published reports. And several appearances by Democratic National Committee Chairman John Fowler, a chief organizer of the coffees. At one of the coffees Fowler can be heard off-camera refusing to accept campaign contribution checks from a donor until he's left the White House. But there is no audio on the tape recorded on June 18, 1996. According to one of the participants at that coffee, who testified before the Senate Campaign Finance Investigative Committee last month, Democratic fund-raiser John Huang, seen here shaking hands with the President, made a direct appeal at the coffee for support for the President's re-election; however, other participants, who also testified, said they heard no such appeal. This afternoon the White House released what it said was separately recorded sound from the Huang coffee. John Huang is not heard on that tape. Later this afternoon President Clinton was asked about the videotapes. REPORTER: How could your staff not know about the existence of these tapes? PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, I think that probably they never discussed it with anybody in the White House Communications Agency. You'd have to ask them, but I can tell you, when I--as soon as I became aware of it, I instructed them to be turned over to the appropriate committees as soon as possible. We have fully cooperated with these committees. We've given over a hundred thousand pages of documents to the Senate Committee alone, I believe, and we'll continue to do so. KWAME HOLMAN: But Senator Fred Thompson, chairman of the Senate Committee investigating campaign fund-raising abuses during the last election, was less forgiving than the President was about the belated discovery of the videotapes. SEN. FRED THOMPSON, Chairman, Governmental Affairs Committee: There's no question that this is a part of an effort to delay and instruct the investigation that has been going on for some time until our deadline passed. KWAME HOLMAN: And Sen. John McCain, chief sponsor of the Senate's Campaign Finance Reform Bill, said he too was troubled by the latest White House revelations. SEN. JOHN McCAIN, (R) Arizona: The question is, is does the appearance of the tapes over the weekend undermine the White House's position that they've done nothing wrong and undermine the position of Attorney General Reno that no further investigation is needed. I believe that--as I've said for months--there will be further revelations and further scandals. I believe that some of them will affect Republicans, as well as Democrats. My specific answer to Bob is that, yes, I believe that it undermines the credibility of both. And I'm beginning to worry about the credibility of the attorney general of the United States because I worry about the credibility of the Justice Department. KWAME HOLMAN: McCain spoke at an afternoon news conference he and Sen. Russ Feingold called to release petitions signed by one million Americans in support of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform bill. Immediately following the event McCain returned to the Senate floor to try to convince more of his colleagues to sign on as well. SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Now, Mr. President, a couple of months ago--in fact, February 1997, more than a couple of months ago, there was a Fox poll, Fox news poll. And it says the following: Which of the following phrases better describes most politicians? 36 percent dedicated public servant; 36 percent of the American people believe that most politicians are dedicated public servants; 44 percent lying wind bag, lying wind bag. I don't think anybody could deny that one of the major reasons--the major reason why the American people feel that had this low--such low opinion of their elected representatives is because of the campaign finance reform and the system with which we elect our people, their representatives, and perhaps more importantly how their elected representatives behave once in office and what they do to stay in office. KWAME HOLMAN: However, aside from McCain and two or three others, most Senate Republicans today continue to oppose the McCain-Feingold bill. SEN. GORDON SMITH, (R) Oregon: It isn't without some reservation that I take that position. I have the greatest esteem and respect for the Senator from Wisconsin, Senator from Arizona. And I know their motives in all of this are good and honorable. I just happen to come from a state, however, where we enacted a bill not dissimilar, not identical, and not dissimilar to the McCain-Feingold bill. And my state legislative process went through an entire cycle with Byzantine kinds of rules that were applied before our state Supreme Court, a very liberal Supreme Court threw it all out as unconstitutional, as violating the right of freedom of speech. KWAME HOLMAN: Complicating matters for supporters of McCain-Feingold is Majority Leader Trent Lott's amendment to the bill that would restrict labor unions' ability to use membership dues for political activities, an amendment overwhelmingly opposed by Democrats. SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD, (D) Wisconsin: Mr. President, I'm afraid this isn't about the role of labor unions. It's too much about partisanship. The majority leader stated on a week ago Friday that his intention was to create a situation where the Democrats would be forced to filibuster campaign finance reform. And those on the other side know that the passage of this amendment will trigger such opposition. KWAME HOLMAN: As a result, the current debate on campaign finance reform could come to an end tomorrow, after the Senate takes a series of votes involving both the Lott amendment and the McCain-Feingold bill, itself. If the bill is stalled, however, Minority Leader Tom Daschle this afternoon said he's prepared to attach the McCain-Feingold bill to almost any other piece of legislation that comes along. SEN. TOM DASCHLE, Minority Leader: There should be no mistake. We will continue to fight for this bill and continue to ensure that we reach out to our Republican colleagues to break the logjam in as meaningful a way as we can. KWAME HOLMAN: But at this point it appears there are not sufficient votes in the Senate to secure passage of any version of campaign finance reform. JIM LEHRER: Now, an outside Washington look at this debate over reforming the political fund-raising system. It's that of a diverse group of Denver voters we have brought together before to discuss other things. Elizabeth Farnsworth talked to them again last Friday. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Thank you all very much for being with us again. It's nice to see you. Mr. Jornayvas, from your point of view how important is campaign finance reform? ROBERT JORNAYVAS, Oil & Gas Executive: Well, I think the attempt at reform is as important as reform, itself. Once again, I think we need to bring the issue to the forefront for discussion. Campaigns have just gotten too expensive, the abuses seem to be too prevalent, and I think we're just at a point in our history where we need to work on it. It's a good system, but I think we can make it better if we can somehow simplify it and make it a little bit cheaper than it is right now. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Eric Duran, do you agree with that, or do you think that the issue as it's being played out in Washington right now is overblown? ERIC DURAN, Financial Analyst: Well, I think it's been a little bit overblown, at least to the American public and how the American public really feels about campaign finance reform on the national level. I think the best evidence is that, you know, campaign finance reform hasn't become one of those single issues where somebody will go out and vote against someone else because they've taken large contributions, or because they've raised too much money. If it wasn't the major issue like abortion or the deficit or the economy, right now Ross Perot or Jerry Brown would be our president, and that's not the case. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What do you think, Chris Goodwin? Do you think that it's an important issue for the whole country, and are people here paying attention to it? CHRIS GOODWIN, Stockroom Manager: I think it's a very important issue. I think money is the number one problem in politics. I think it's corrupted politics to the point where our democracy is becoming corrupt and very limited. In Maine in the last election they passed a public financing law which is the direction I think we absolutely need to go in. I think we need to get all the money out of politics. I think the kind of things they're talking about now is just basically tinkering with the system. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Dee Cisneros. DEE CISNEROS, Retired Schoolteacher: I think people should be made to see how important it is, and I think it's very unfair for a candidate who decides to run for office and then has to become a fund-raiser. If they become fund-raisers, then it's very difficult to talk about issues. And I think it's very important. JAMES SULTON, Higher Education Administrator: It interests me that, on the one hand, we bemoan the apathy that exists in politics and the fact that many people don't want to participate. On the other hand, we look at the circus, and the fact is there's a feeling that you have to be a millionaire to be an elected official in this country and, therefore, why bother, I'm not a millionaire, it's not my world. I don't participate in it, and then you ask me why I don't vote. Well, I'm not saying me personally but people I think generally feel that's sort of Quixotic. You cannot expect people to be heavily invested in the political system if the system is so far removed from them. And campaign finance reform is really getting there at the tip of the iceberg. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Eric Duran. ERIC DURAN: I don't think we're going to have any reform on the national level until the majority of those people in the House of Representatives have been elected under some type of campaign finance law that exists in their state. Here in Colorado we just passed our own campaign finance amendment which limits contributions for individuals to $1,000 and for Political Action Committees to $3,000. And I think that's where we're going to see the reforms at the state and local level. But there really isn't any way that it's going to happen nationally. I can't see people in the House of Representatives, you know, creating some type of limits on themselves when that's the very reason they got elected to begin with. DEE CISNEROS: It's up to you. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Mr. Conway, what do you think about that? THOMAS CONWAY, Stockbroker: Well, I think-- ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Reforming themselves. THOMAS CONWAY: Quite honestly, I don't care how much they spend. I don't care if these people spend all of their own money. What's more important is whole and complete disclosure. They get an ex-chairman of the Securities & Exchange Commission; they'll clean it up pretty quickly. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Connie Chapman-- DEE CISNEROS: I don't think disclosure is doing anything. I mean, so you know that AT&T--so you know that Amway gave a billion and a half dollars to the Republicans--I mean, what does that do-- THOMAS CONWAY: It's help you know who to vote against. DEE CISNEROS: I'm concerned about-- ERIC DURAN: No. People don't vote on single issues like that, and that was my point at the beginning. It's not like abortion. It's not like the deficit. People don't care or adamantly believe enough in campaign finance reform to make it their single issue to vote on. DEE CISNEROS: They did here in Colorado. SUZANNA CORDOVA, Elementary School Asst. Principal: I don't think that because I think that it's not the kind of issue that for me like burns in my heart. It's not the kind of-- ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Have you paid much attention, for example, to the hearings and to the McCain-Feingold bill that will be voted on this week? SUZANNA CORDOVA: I know what's going on, you know--when pressed, I could probably come up with a definition for soft money and hard money, which I think most Americans probably could not do. I don't think that it really matters all that much. I agree that there's too much money in campaigns, and I think that the prerequisites almost now to run for office are exorbitant, and I absolutely would feel like I would never be able to do that. And yet, at the same time, it's just not something that do-- ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Do you not care because you think no matter how much it's reformed money will always talk? SUZANNA CORDOVA: I'm very cynical, I guess. I'm very cynical about what--about the possibility for reform. I believe that these reforms would be very beneficial to the system. I guess I just don't--I don't really feel like there's a lot--that a lot of effort is going to produce a lot of change. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Tanya Chattman, what do you think about it? TANYA CHATTMAN, Graduate Student: Well, I agree with you to a certain extent, that it's not--that--I think that it's been blown out of proportion. I guess I kind of disagree. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: You think there are bigger problems? TANYA CHATTMAN: Yes, I do. I think that there are bigger problems in the country. To me campaign finance is just the Whitewater of the second term. I just think that they are going to spend exorbitant amounts of money trying to find out exactly what's going on. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: So when you say that, do you mean a way to embarrass the President, that's what it's about? TANYA CHATTMAN: Yes. Yes, I do. There's a big controversy in whether he used the Oval Office phone. And I just think that we have lots more important issues. And I think the average American really feels that way as well. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: You do? TANYA CHATTMAN: That campaign finance is just not that important an issue. CHRIS GOODWIN: I think there are more important issues, but I think part of the reason that we don't get anything accomplished on those other issues is because politics is dominated by big money in Washington, and it's the power of the lobbyists that keep things from happening. Look at the tax code. It's one big giant loophole, and those loopholes are designed for people who give the campaign contributions to the politicians. Look what happened to health care reform, the lobbyists for the health care, the health insurance industry killed health care reform because they can make the campaign contributions to stop those kind of things from happening. Look at what the tobacco industry has gotten away with for decades. That's because of the power of the money they spread around in Washington. DEE CISNEROS: I think there's something missing. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Just let me--Linda Houston, do you agree with that? LINDA HOUSTON, Insurance Broker: I agree totally I think that reform is one of the most important things we have to think about right now because I'd like to think that the United States gives everyone equal opportunity and you do not give candidates equal opportunity as long as you don't have ceilings on financing; having been in that position, and we actually raised a lot of money. In fact, I felt guilty after we raised that money. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: This was your husband-- LINDA HOUSTON: My husband. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: --that ran for state office. LINDA HOUSTON: State office. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: State representative. Right. LINDA HOUSTON: And I felt guilty that we raised that much money because I looked back and I thought, you know, we could have given two families an entire income on what we have raised. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: But this experience makes you think there should be caps. LINDA HOUSTON: Absolutely. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: So that you don't have to raise that kind of money. LINDA HOUSTON: Everyone should be on the same, equal plane, and I think it's very important. And I also believe that just like Mr. Jornayvas that the process is important. If nothing else, we're all becoming very aware of where this money is coming from and who's being influenced by this money. And I think that it's--this is part of politics. This is the very core of politics. It's who are they buying. ERIC DURAN: I think there's something, though, from the discussion. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Go ahead. ERIC DURAN: You know, what I'm thinking is, well, what happens to this money; where does all of these millions of dollars go? All of this money goes to the media. And I think that's something that's missing in the discussion, you know. This goes to radio ads. This goes to TV time, and it's ironic that we get the media covering campaign finance reform but we don't see the media doing-- ERIC DURAN: Ponying up, giving out, you know, hours of free time to get the word out. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Tom Conway, how disappointed will people be, people like you who think this is important, if the Senate and the House do not pass reform legislation this year? TON CONWAY: Significantly. Our political process is subjected to corruption constantly. And that's why I believe that complete and fair disclosure of all the money that they get is what we need to have first. If we have the information, then we can vote for or against these individuals--if we know what they're doing. The problem that we have with the political process now is that we don't know what they're doing. There's too much hidden from us because of the corrupt politics. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Sam Arnold, do you think people--do you agree that people will be disappointed if nothing happens, or will it just be more of the same? SAM ARNOLD, Restaurant Owner: I think it's more of the same. To me, the idea of campaign reform is to stop the campaigns from starting until a month before the primaries-- ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: You're more worried about time. SAM ARNOLD: --let them run through the primaries to the election, and that will give you enough. The big complaint that the public has is that they're bombarded on all sides for a year. And the poor candidates--by the time they get to election day--they're dead. And the tremendous numbers of millions of dollars that are spent in media advertising, it just goes on and on and on--I think that's where people are so disturbed, because they get too much of it. It's like having soap shoved down your throat. It's obscene. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: The main opponent of the McCain-Feingold bill, which is currently before the Senate, is the Senator from Kentucky and Mitch McConnell, and here's what he says--and I wanted to ask you about this--he says that only $3.89 per person was spent on the campaigns last year, which is really not very much, about like a McDonald's, the cheapest McDonald's dinner. And of all the commercials on TV last year 1 percent were political. He says there's no need for finance--any kind of reform because there's not that much being spent on it. What do you think? GUEST: He's getting it. ROBERT JORNAYVAS: I really disagree. When the President of the United States is spending as much time as he is focusing on raising money and who he's going to have coffee with and who's going to spend the night in the White House, we've got much more pressing issues for our President to be working on. And clearly the discussion is important. Whether we get reform or not this year I don't think is that important. It's important that it's now up. We're talking about it. I think the thing that's come up to me is how petty some of these rules are. I mean, somehow we've got to simplify whether or not they're making a phone call from which office in the White House is really kind of silly. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: It just doesn't seem important. ROBERT JORNAYVAS: We need to figure out how to simplify this process and continue to discuss it and somehow end up with a better system. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What do you think about the Lott amendment, the Trent Lott amendment to the McCain-Feingold bill, which would prohibit unions from deducting fees or dues from paychecks of union and non-union workers without their permission for political activities? DEE CISNEROS: They've been trying to kill the unions for a long time. And I think that's a poison pill. I think it's true they're trying to destroy the unions. ERIC DURAN: I strongly disagree. I think that what they're trying to do is to give the individual union member the right to say whether or not he wants his dues to go for political purposes, rather than purposes of running the union. I don't think it has anything to do with seeing whether or not the union's survived. It's a function of keeping their power in check. CHRIS GOODWIN: I'm a union member and my contribution to my union's Political Action Committee is totally voluntary. It's a separate contribution on my paycheck from my duties. And any time I want to stop making that contribution I can. In fact, if I'm not happy with how they use the money, I could ask for a refund and get a refund of that money. SAM ARNOLD: Has a union member ever gotten a refund that's requested it? CHRIS GOODWIN: Well, I've never asked. They wouldn't set that system up if they wouldn't take it seriously. My union is run democratically. I think there's a stereotype of unions being these huge, corrupt institutions that it's just a stereotype. That's what it is. And union money was a drop in the bucket in what was spent in the last election. SAM ARNOLD: Well, whether it's union or non-union, if you're a worker, you should have the right to say where the fruits of your labors are going to go. And so that's--that's the essence of it. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Thank you all for being with us again.

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