MR. NEWMAN: Mr. Reynolds.

MR. REYNOLDS: Mr. President, when you came into office you spoke very eloquently of the need for a time for healing, and very early in your administration you went out to Chicago and you announced, you proposed a program of case-by-case pardons for draft resisters to restore them to full citizenship. Some fourteen thousand young men took advantage of your offer, but another ninety thousand did not. In granting the pardon to former President Nixon, sir, part of your rationale was to put Watergate behind us to - if I may quote you again - truly end our long national nightmare. Why does not the same rationale apply now, today, in our Bicentennial year, to the young men who resisted in Vietnam, and many of them still in exile abroad?

MR. FORD: The amnesty program that I recommended in Chicago in September of 1974 would give to all draft evaders and - military deserters the opportunity to earn their - good record back. About fourteen to fifteen thousand did take advantage of that program. We gave them ample time. I am against- an across-the-board pardon of draft evaders or military deserters. Now in the case of Mr. Nixon, the reason the - the pardon was given, was that, when I took office this country was in a very, very divided condition. There was hatred, there was divisiveness - people had lost faith in their government in many, many respects. Mr. Nixon resigned, and I became president. It seemed to me that if I was to adequately and effectively handle the problems of high inflation, a growing recession, the - involvement of the United States still in Vietnam that I had to give a hundred percent of my time to those two major problems. Mr. Nixon resigned. That is disgrace. The first President out of thirty-eight that ever resigned from public office under pressure. So when you look at the penalty that he paid, and when you analyze the requirements that I had - to spend all of my time working on the economy, which was in trouble, that I inherited; working on our problems in Southeast Asia - which were still plaguing us - it seemed to me that Mr. Nixon had been penalized enough by his resignation in disgrace and the need, and necessity for me to concentrate on the problems of the country fully justified the action that I took.

MR. REYNOLDS: I take it then, sir, that you do not believe that - it is - that you are going to reconsider and - think about those ninety thousand who are still abroad. Uh - have they not been penalized enough - many of 'em been there for years?

MR. FORD: Well, Mr. Carter has indicated that - he would give a blanket pardon to all - draft evaders. I do not agree with that point of view. I gave, in September of 1974, an opportunity for all draft evaders, all deserters, to come in voluntarily, clear their records by earning an opportunity to restore their good citizenship. I think we gave them a good opportunity - we're - I don't think we should go any further.

MR. NEWMAN: Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER: Well I think it's ... very difficult for President Ford to - explain the difference between the pardon of President Nixon and - and - his attitude toward those who violated the draft laws. As a matter of fact - now- I don't advocate amnesty; I advocate pardon. There's a difference in my opinion - and in accordance with the ruling of the Supreme Court and accordance with the definition in the dictionary. Amnesty means that - that you - that what you did was right. Pardon means that what you did, whether it's right or wrong, you're forgiven for it. And I do advocate a pardon for - for draft evaders. I think it's accurate to say that in - two years ago when Mr. Nixon - Mr. Ford put in this amnesty that three times as many deserters were - excused as were - as were the - the ones who evaded the draft. But I think that now is the time to heal our country after the Vietnam War and I think that what the people are concerned about is not the - pardon or the amnesty of - those who evaded the draft, but - but whether or not our crime system is - is fair. We've got a - a sharp distinction drawn between white collar crime - the - the - the big shots who are rich, who are influential very seldom go to jail; those who are poor and - and who have no influence - quite often are the ones who are punished. And - and the whole subject of crime is one that concerns our people very much, and I believe that the fairness of it is - is what - - is a - is a major problem that addresses our - our leader and this is something that hasn't been addressed adequately by - by this administration. But I - I hope to have a complete responsibility on my shoulders to help bring about a - a fair - criminal justice system and also to - to bring about - an end to the - to the divise- divisiveness that has occurred in our country as a result of the Vietnam War.

MR. NEWMAN: Mr. Gannon.

MR. GANNON: Governor Carter, you have promised a sweeping overhaul of the federal government, including a reduction in the number of government agencies - you say it would go down about two hundred from some nineteen hundred. That sounds, indeed, like a very deep cut in the federal government. But isn't it a fact that you're not really talking about fewer federal employees or less government spending, but rather that you are talking about reshaping the federal government, not making it smaller?

MR. CARTER: Well, I've been through this before, Mr. Gannon, as the governor of Georgia. When I took aver we had a bureaucratic mess, like we have in Washington now, and we had three hundred agencies, departments, bureaus, commissions - some - fully budgeted, some not, but all having responsibility to carry out that was in conflict. And we cut those three hundred - agencies and so forth down substantially. We eliminated two hundred and seventy-eight of them. We set up a simple structure of government that could be administrated fairly and it was a - a tremendous success. It hasn't been undone since I was there. It resulted also in an ability to reshape our court system, our prison system, our education system, our mental health programs and - and a clear assignment of responsibility and - and authority and also to have our people once again understanding control our government. I intend to do the same thing if I'm elected president. When I get to Washington, coming in as an outsider, one of the major responsibilities that - that I will have on my shoulder is a complete reorganization of the - of the executive branch of government. We now have - a greatly expanded White House staff. When Mr. Nixon went in office, for instance, we had three and a half million dollars spent on - on the White House and its staff. That has escalated now to sixteen and a half million dollars, in the last Republican administration. This needs to be changed. We need to put the responsibilities back on the cabinet members. We also need to have a great reduction in agencies and programs. For instance, we now have - in the health area three hundred and two different programs administered by eleven major departments and agencies, sixty other advisory commissions responsible for this. Medicaid's in one agency; Medicare is in a different one. The - the check on the quality of health care is in a different one. None of them are responsible for health care itself. This makes it almost impossible for us to have a good health program. We have - just advocated - this past week a consolidation of the responsibilities for energy. Our country now has no comprehensive energy program or policy. We have twenty different agencies in the federal government responsible for the production, the regulation, the - information about energy, the conservation of energy, spread all over government. This is a - a gross waste of money, so tough, competent management of government, giving us a simple efficient purposeful and manageable government would be a great step forward and if I'm elected - and I intend to be - then it's gonna be done.

MR. GANNON: Well, I'd like to - to press my question on the number of federal employees - whether you would really plan to reduce the overall - number, or - or merely put them in different departments and relabel them. Uh - in your energy plan, you consolidate a number of a - agencies into one, or you would, but does that really change the overall?

MR. CARTER: I can't say for sure that we would have fewer federal employees when I go out of office than when I come in. It took me about three years to completely reorganize the Georgia government. The last year I was in office - our budget was - was actually less than it was a year before, which showed a great improvement. Also, we had a - a 2 percent increase in the number of employees the last year. But it was a tremendous shift from administrative jobs into the delivery of services. For instance, we - completely revised our prison system. We established eighty-four new mental health treatment centers. And we shifted people out of administrative jobs into the field to deliver better services. The same thing will be done - at the federal government level. I - I accomplished this with s - substantial reductions in employees in some departments. For instance, in the Transportation Department we had - we cut back about 25 percent of the total number of employees. In giving our people better mental health care, we increased the number of employees. But the efficiency of it, the simplicity of it, the ability of people to understand their own government and control it was a - was a - substantial benefit derived from complete reorganization. We - have got to do that at the federal government level. If we don't, the bureaucratic mess is going to continue. There's no way for our people now to understand what their government is. There's no way to get the answer to a question. When you come to Washington to try to - as a governor - to try to begin a new program for your people, like the treatment of drug addicts, I found there were thirteen different federal agencies that I had to go to, to manage the drug treatment program. In the Georgia government we only had one agency responsible for drug treatment. This is the kind of change that would be made. And - it would be of - of tremendous benefit in long-range planning, in tight budgeting, saving the taxpayers' money, making the government more efficient, cutting down on bureaucratic waste, having a clear delineation of authority and responsibility of employees, and giving our people a better chance to understand and control their government.

MR. NEWMAN: President Ford.

MR. FORD: I think the record should show, Mr. Newman, that - the Bureau of Census - we checked it just yesterday - indicates that - in the four years that - Governor Carter was governor of the state of Georgia, - expenditures by the government went up over 50 percent Uh - employees of the government in Georgia during his term of office went up over 25 percent; and the figures also show that the, - bonded indebtedness of the state of Georgia during his governorship went up over 20 percent. And there was some very interesting testimony given by Governor Carter's successor, Governor Busby, before a Senate committee a few - months ago on how he found the Medicaid program when he came into office following Governor Carter. He testified, and these are his words - the present governor of Georgia - he says he found the Medicaid program in Georgia in shambles. Now let me talk about what we've done in the White House as far as federal employees are concerned The first order that I issued after I became president was to cut or eliminate the prospective forty-thousand increase in federal employees that had been scheduled by my predecessor. And in the term that I've been president - some two years - we have reduced federal employment by eleven thousand. In the White House staff itself, when I became president, we had roughly five hundred and forty employees. We now have about four hundred and eighty-five employees, so we've made a rather significant reduction in the number of employees on the White House staff working for the president. So I think our record of cutting back employees, plus the failure on the part of the Governor's programs to actually save employment in Georgia, shows which is the better plan.

MR. NEWMAN: Mrs. Drew.

MS. DREW: Mr. President, at Vail, after the Republican convention, you announced that you would now emphasize five new areas; among those were jobs and housing and health and improved recreational facilities for Americans. And you also added crime. You also mentioned education. For two years you've been telling us that we couldn't do very much in these areas because we couldn't afford it; and in fact we do have a $50 billion deficit now. In rebuttal to Governor Carter a little bit earlier, you said that if there were to be any surplus in the next few years you thought it should be turned back to the people in the form of tax relief. So how are you going to pay for any new initiatives in these areas you announced at Vail you were going to now stress?

MR. FORD: Well, in the - last two years, as I indicated before, we had a very tough time. We were faced with - heavy inflation, over 12 percent; we were faced with substantial unemployment. But in the last - twenty-four months we've turned the economy around and we've brought inflation down to under 6 percent, and we have reduced the - well, we have added employment of about four million in the last seventeen months to the point where we have eighty-eight million people working in America today - the most in the history of the country. The net result is we are going to have some improvement in our receipts. And I think we'll have some decrease in our disbursements. We expect to have a lower deficit in fiscal year 1978. We feel that with this improvement in the economy; we feel with more receipts and fewer disbursements we can in a moderate way increase, as I recommended, over the next ten years a new parks program that would cast a billion and a half dollars, doubling our national park system. We have recommended that in the h- housing program we can reduce down payments and moderate monthly payments. But that doesn't cost any more as far as the federal treasury is concerned. We believe that we can do a better job in the area of crime, but that requires a tougher sentencing, mandatory certain prison sentences for those who violate our criminal laws. We - believe that you can revise the federal criminal code, which has not been revised in a good many years. That doesn't cost any more money. We believe that you can uhh - do something more effectively with a moderate increase in money in the drug abuse program. We feel that - in education we can have a slight increase - not a major increase. It's my understanding that Governor Carter has indicated that - he approves of a $30 billion - expenditure by the federal government as far as education is concerned. At the present time we're spending roughly three billion five hundred million dollars. I don't know where that money would come from. But as we look at the quality-of-life programs - jobs, health, education, crime, recreation - we feel that as we move forward with a healthier economy, we can absorb the small necessary cost that will be required.

MS. DREW: Sir, in the next few years would you try to reduce the deficit, would you spend more money far these programs that you have just outlined, or would you, as you said earlier, return whatever surplus you got to the people in the form of tax relief?

MR. FORD: We feel that - with the programs that I have recommended, the additional $10 billion tax cut, with the moderate increases in the quality-of-life area, we can still have a balanced budget which I will submit to the Congress in January of 1978. We won't wait one year or two years longer, as Governor Carter - indicates. As the economy improves, and it is improving, our gross national product this year will average about 6 percent increase over last year. We will have the lower rate of inflation for the - calendar year this year - something slightly under 6 percent. Employment will be up, revenues will be up. We'll keep the lid on some of these programs that we can hold down as we have a little extra money to spend for those quality-of-life programs which I think are needed and necessary. Now I cannot, and would not, endorse the kind of program that - Governor Carter recommends. He endorses the Democratic - platform which, as I read it, calls for approximately sixty additional programs. We estimate that those programs would add a hundred billion dollars minimum and probably two hundred billion dollars - uhh maximum each year to the federal budget. Those programs you cannot afford and give tax relief. We feel that you can hold the line and restrain federal spending, give a tax reduction and still have a balanced budget by 1978.

MR. NEWMAN: Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER: Well, Mr. Ford takes the - same attitude that the Republicans always take. In the last three months before an election, they're always for the programs that they always fight the other three-and-one-half years. Uh - I remember when - Herbert Hoover was against - jobs for people. I remember when Alf Landon was against Social Security and - later President Nixon, sixteen years ago, was telling the public that John Kennedy's proposals would bankrupt the country and would double the cost. The best thing to do is to look at the record - of Mr. Ford's Administration and Mr. Nixon's before his. Uh - we had last year a $65 billion deficit - the largest deficit in the history of our country - more of a deficit spending than we had in the entire eight-year period under President Johnson and President Kennedy. We've got five hundred thousand more Americans out of jobs today than were out of work three months ago and since Mr. Ford's been in office two years, we've had a 50 percent increase in unemployment from five million people out of work to two and a half million more people out of work and a total of seven and a half million. We've also got - a comparison between himself and Mr. Nixon. He's got four times the size of the deficits that Mr. Nixon even had himself. This - talking about more people at work - is distorted because with a 14 percent increase in the cost of living in the last - two years, it means that - that women and young people have had to go to work when they didn't want to because their fathers didn't make enough to pay the increased cost of - food and housing and clothing. We have - in this last two years alone a hundred and twenty billion dollars total deficits under President Ford and - at the same time we've had, in the last eight years, a doubling in the number of bankruptcies for small business: we've had a negative growth in our - in our national economy measured in real dollars. The take-home pay of a worker in this country is actually less now than it was in 1968 - measured in real dollars. This is the kind of record that's there and talk about the future and a drastic change or conversion on the part of Mr. Ford as of last minute is one that just doesn't go.