The First Presidential Debate:
Part I, Part II, Part III

The 1988 Campaign & Debates

An Interview with President Bush

NewsHour Coverage of the 1988 Debates

 

MASHEK: Governor, you've mentioned the American dream of home ownership, and it's certainly become an impossible one for many of the young people of our nation who are caught up in this economic squeeze of the middle class, as you've said so frequently during the campaign. And yet in spite of your answer just a few minutes ago, what promise can you realistically hold out to these people that with the costs of housing going up, and with limited help available from Washington, are we destined to become a nation of renters?

DUKAKIS: Well, I certainly hope not. And it's all a question of what our priorities are. Mr. Bush talked about values. I agree with him. What are our values? Isn't providing housing for families of low and moderate income, isn't it making possible for young families, first time home buyers to own their own home some day something that's part of the American dream? I think so. You know, back after World War II when we had hundreds of thousands of GI's who came back from the war, we didn't sit around. We went out and built housing. The government was very much involved; so was the housing industry; so was the banking industry; so were housing advocates; so were non-profit agencies; so were governors and mayors and people all over this country who believe deeply in home ownership and affordable housing. Now, that's the kind of leadership that I want to provide as president of the United States. This isn't a question of a little charity for the homeless. This is a question of organizing the housing community. I've talked to bankers and builders and developers, the housing advocates, community development agencies, and they want leadership from Washington. Washington, by itself, can't do it all. We shouldn't expect that. But governors are ready; mayors are ready. Builders and community leaders are ready. It will require some funds, John. And we ought to be prepared to provide those funds. But that, too, will require some choices. Mr. Bush wants to spend billions and trillions on Star Wars. Well, that's a choice we have to make, isn't it? Do we spend money on that weapon system in the billions and trillions, or is providing some decent and affordable housing for families of this country something that is at least as important and probably more so. Because it's so essential to our economic strength and to our future. Now, that's the kind of presidency I believe in. And simply to say, well, the McKinney bill will do it just doesn't do. We need a president who will lead on this issue, who has had experience on this issue. It's the kind of priority that will be at the top of our list beginning in January of 1989.

LEHRER: A response, Mr. Vice President.

BUSH: I think the governor is blurring housing and the homeless. Let's talk about housing which the question was. When you talk to those bankers, did they discuss where interest rates were when your party controlled the White House? Ten days before I took the oath of office as president they were 21 and a half percent. Now, how does that grab you for increasing housing? Housing is up. We are serving a million more families now. But we're not going to do it in that old Democratic, liberal way of trying to build more bricks and mortars. Go out and take a look at St. Louis at some of that effort. It is wrong. I favor home ownership. I want to see more vouchers. I want to see control of some of these projects, and I want to keep the interest rates down. They're half, now of what they were when we came into office, and with my policy of getting this deficit under control, they'll be a lot less. But if we spend and spend and spend, that is going to wrap up the housing market, and we'll go right back to the days of the misery index and malaise that President Reagan and I have overcome - thank God for the United States on that one.

LEHRER: All right, the next question is to the governor. Ann Groer will ask it.

GROER: Governor Dukakis, is there a conflict between your opposition to the death penalty and your support for abortion on demand, even though in the minds of many people, that's also killing?

DUKAKIS: No, I don't think there is. There are two very different issues here, and they've got to be dealt with separately. I'm opposed to the death penalty. I think everybody knows that. I'm also very tough on violent crime. And that's one of the reasons why my state has cut crime by more than any other industrial state in America. It's one of the reasons why we have the lowest murder rate of any industrial state in the country. It's one of the reasons why we have a drug education and prevention program that is reaching out and helping youngsters all over our state, the kind of thing I want to do as president of the United States. You know, the vice president says he wants to impose the death penalty on drug traffickers, and yet his administration has a federal furlough program which is one of the most permissive in the country, which gave last year 7,000 furloughs to drug traffickers and drug pushers, the same people that he says he now wants to execute. The issue of abortion is a very difficult issue, one that I think that we all have to wrestle with, we have to come to terms with. I don't favor abortion. I don't think it's a good thing. I don't think most people do. The question is who makes the decision. And I think it has to be the woman, in the exercise of her own conscience and religious beliefs, that makes that decision.

LEHRER: Response, Mr. Vice President.

BUSH: Well, the Massachusetts furlough program was unique. It was the only one in the nation that furloughed murderers who had not served enough time to be eligible for parole. The federal program doesn't do that. No other state programs do that. And I favor the death penalty. I know it's tough and honest people can disagree. But when a narcotics wrapped up guy goes in and murders a police officer, I think they ought to pay with their life. And I do believe it would be inhibiting. And so I am not going to furlough men like Willie Horton, and I would meet with their, the victims of his last escapade, the rape and the brutalization of the family down there in Maryland. Maryland would not extradite Willie Horton, the man who was furloughed, the murderer, because they didn't want him to be furloughed again. And so we have a fundamental difference on this one. And I think most people know my position on the sanctity of life. I favor adoption. I do not favor abortion.

LEHRER: Question for the vice president, Ann?

GROER: Yes. Mr. Vice President, I'd like to stay with abortion for just a moment if I might. Over the years you have expressed several positions, while opposing nearly all forms of government payment for it. You now say that you support abortion only in cases of rape, incest, or threat to a mother's life, and you also support a constitutional amendment that if ratified would outlaw most abortions. But if abortions were to become illegal again, do you think that the women who defy the law and have them anyway, as they did before it was okayed by the Supreme Court, and the doctors who perform them should go to jail?

BUSH: I haven't sorted out the penalties. But I do know, I do know that I oppose abortion. And I favor adoption. And if we can get this law changed, everybody should make the extraordinary effort to take these kids that are unwanted and sometimes aborted, take the - let them come to birth, and then put them in a family where they will be loved. And you see, yes, my position has evolved. And it's continuing to evolve, and it's evolving in favor of life. And I have had a couple of exceptions that I support - rape, incest and the life of the mother. Sometimes people feel a little uncomfortable talking about this, but it's much clearer for me now. As I've seen abortions sometimes used as a birth control device, for heavens sakes. See the millions of these killings accumulate, and this is one where you can have an honest difference of opinion. We certainly do. But no, I'm for the sanctity of life, and once that illegality is established, then we can come to grips with the penalty side, and of course there's got to be some penalties to enforce the law, whatever they may be.

LEHRER: Governor.

DUKAKIS: Well, I think what the vice president is saying is that he's prepared to brand a woman a criminal for making this decision. It's as simple as that. I don't think it's enough to come before the American people who are watching us tonight and say, well, I haven't sorted it out. This is a very, very difficult and fundamental decision that all of us have to make. And what he is saying, if I understand him correctly, is that he's prepared to brand a woman a criminal for making this choice.

BUSH: I just -

DUKAKIS: Let me finish. Let me simply say that I think it has to be the woman in the exercise of her own conscience and religious beliefs that makes that decision, and I think that's the right approach, the right decision, and I would hope by this time that Mr. Bush had sorted out this issue and come to terms with it as I have. I respect his right to disagree with me. But I think it's important that we have a position, that we take it, and we state it to the American people.

LEHRER: Peter Jennings, a question for the vice president.

JENNINGS: Mr. Vice President, I'm struck by your discussion of women and the sanctity of life. And it leads me to recall your own phrase, that you are haunted by the lives which children in our inner cities live. Certainly the evidence is compelling. There's an explosion of single parent families. And by any measure, these single parent families, many with unwanted children, are the source of poverty, school drop outs, crime, which many people in the inner city simply feel is out of control. If it haunts you so, why over the eight years of the Reagan-Bush administration have so many programs designed to help the inner cities been eliminated or cut?

BUSH: One of the reasons, and I first would like to know which programs you're talking about, and then we could talk on the merits of the programs. But, you see, my fundamental philosophy is give local and state government as much control as possible. That might be the explanation, if you tell me the program. I do strongly support the WIC program. I think it is good. I think part of the answer to this haunting of these children that are out there and suffering lies in extension of Medicaid, to challenge the states, and maybe we're going to have to enforce more on the states in terms of Medicaid taking care of these. But, Peter, so much of it is, gets into a whole other phase of things. The neighborhood, the kind of environment people are growing up in, and that leads me to the programs I'm talking about in terms of education. I think that part of it is the crime infested neighborhoods, and that's why I'm a strong believer in trying to control crimes in the neighborhood, why I was so pleased to be endorsed by the policemen on the beat, the Boston Police Department the other day. I think they understand my commitment to helping them in the neighborhoods. And so it's a combination of these things. But do not erode out of the system the thousand points of light. The people that are out there trying to help these kids, the programs like cities and schools, the work that Barbara Bush is doing so people can learn to read in this country and then go on and break this cycle of poverty. I'm for Head Start and moving that up. And I've already made a proposal - and yes, it will cost some money. But I favor that. So these are the combination of things I want, and the fact that I don't think the federal government can endorse a $35 billion program does not mean I have less compassion than the person who endorses such a program.

LEHRER: Governor.

DUKAKIS: Well, I must have been living through a different eight years then the ones the vice president's been living through, because this administration has cut and slashed and cut and slashed programs for children, for nutrition, for the kinds of things that can help these youngsters to live better lives. It's cut federal aid to education; it's cut Pell grants and loans to close the door to college opportunity on youngsters all over this country. And that, too, is a major difference between the vice president and me. Let me just give you one other example. We have a great many people, hundreds of thousands of people living on public assistance in this country. The 50 governors of this nation have proposed to the Congress that we help those families to get off of welfare, help those youngsters, help their mothers to become independent and self-sufficient. It's taken months and months and months to get Mr. Bush and the administration to support that legislation, and they're still resisting. That's the way you help people. Being haunted, a thousand points of light - I don't know what that means. I know what strong political leadership is. I know what's happened over the course of the past eight years. These programs have been cut and slashed and butchered, and they've hurt kids all over this country.

LEHRER: A question for the governor, Peter.

JENNINGS: Governor, the crisis is no less a crisis for you if you are elected president. Where would you get the money to devote to the inner cities which is clearly needed. And can you be specific about the programs not only you'd reinstate, but the more imaginative ones that you'd begin.

DUKAKIS: Well, I said a few minutes ago, Peter, that you could improve the lives of families and youngsters and save money at the same time. Welfare reform is one way to do it. If we invest in job training, in child care for those youngsters, in some extended health benefits so that that mother and her kids don't lose their home.