JIM LEHRER: Admiral Stockdale, welcome. You were the Reform Party candidate for vice president in 1992, and you participated in the vice presidential debate. In general terms, how would you characterize that experience for you?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: It was terribly frustrating because I remember I started with, "Who am I? Why am I here?" and I never got back to that because there was never an opportunity for me to explain my life to people. It was so different from Quayle and Gore. The four years in solitary confinement in Vietnam, 7½ years in prisons, drop the first bomb that started the ... American bombing raid in the North Vietnam. We blew the oil storage tanks of then off the map. And I never - I couldn't approach -- I don't say it just to brag, but, I mean, my sensitivities are completely different.

JIM LEHRER: That line, "Who am I?" and "Why am I here?" of course, got great publicity. Was that something that you just said spontaneously, or had you thought about it before the thing began?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: I had thought about it a little bit, and I thought it would come to me in a way that I could explain the idea of building a prison civilization. You remember, I really remembered Mark Van Doran's quote. He said, "An intelligent person is one who should a catastrophe strike, say doomsday... he could refound his own civilization," and I said, that's what I'm here to do. And we had our own laws. I mean, I wrote them. And we had our own customs, and traditions, and proprieties.

It was a very great group to work with. They did not want to be - here is the typical situation. A new guy, rather senior, comes in and he is, because of his seniority he takes over this cell block - and I've heard this so many times. And he'll get up and give an apologetic little whispered talk. You weren't to talk but at the right time. But he said, "I don't feel like - I feel empowered, and under these circumstances when we're getting tortured for all these things - empowered to design your own defense. I'll leave that up to you." And then silence.

And then time and again the old boys, the guys said, "Sir, you have no right to tell us good luck and leave us. We want to know what you want us to take torture for. Give us the list. Give us 10 or 12 things that we have to go in there and take torture for." Now that's where they wanted to live so we can sleep at night. People wouldn't think that was -

JIM LEHRER: Fair. And yet you wanted, as a candidate for vice president of the United States, you wanted to be able to explain that to people as in terms of who you are, and who you were, and how you got there.

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: That's human nature. I think it's a very valid photograph of human nature, of smart, aggressive people.

JIM LEHRER: And yet you said that you feel like you were - I quote, "I feel like I'm an observer at a ping-pong game." That's what you - I mean, and that's what it boiled down to, is that right, for you?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Yeah. I mean, it just seemed to me that it was - I felt so helpless to this business of not having any papers. That seems like a throwback to a schoolboy.

JIM LEHRER: Taking an exam of some kind?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Yeah, and, you know, of course, these guys are right where they live. They, you know, every day they love to talk about health care, and, you know, Social Security, and I don't have, you know, I can learn about it but, I mean, that isn't the thing I get up in the morning and start sweating about.

JIM LEHRER: But there were a lot of - a lot of criticism of you, of course, as you know, was that you were not prepared on the issues like that. Did you - was that a fair criticism?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: That's a fair criticism, but I didn't get much help from anybody about it.

JIM LEHRER: What was the process that led up to the debate?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Well, first of all, I was asked by Ross Perot on a telephone call in March of 1992 if, since he had committed on the Larry King Show to becoming a candidate for president, to get on all 50 ballots, he said, now, he said, you know, "I just now came across the information, and about half the states have to have, or demand to have the - the candidate's name at the start." Each state runs its own show on that, I'm sure. But anyway, he said, "What I want to ask you is for a favor." He said, "Would you let me put in your name as a stand-in candidate, and then as soon as I can get a real politician to join me, I'll let you know and we'll erase your name." And we got stuck in the mud somewhere.

I mean, we were just sitting back there in Coronado, and we - and pretty soon then he called up in July and said that I'm going to be going on TV in a few minutes and I'm going to say I'm resigning from the candidacy, that I'm going to get out. Well, then, I don't know where all this paperwork was - that's another thing, because the wheels were turning and I thought my name had been removed. But it hadn't, and he hadn't found anybody to run with him, as near as I can tell. And so it was - there was no preparation sponsored.

JIM LEHRER: And suddenly you were told you had to debate Gore and Quayle?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: We didn't know. Sybil and I were on the -

JIM LEHRER: Sybil's your wife.

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Sybil's my wife, and on the first day of October, that's the first time I knew Ross was going to run.

JIM LEHRER: That he was coming back into the race. Yeah.

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Yeah. And so Sybil said to me, whispered to me on that occasion, said, "Are you going to have to be in that - if they have a V.P. debate" - and it hadn't been really decided yet - "You're not going to have to be in that, are you?" I said, "No, everybody knows I'm not a politician." Then I started saying, "Well, let me think about that." And this was a rather short time span.

The debate popped up 12 days after that. I think that was about the date of the debate, and I sat there and I had already told her that, and then I started counting the time, and about a week before the debate I called Ross. I seldom called him, but in this case I said, "You know, I'm in luck. Nobody has ever mentioned that debate, and it's too late to invite me, and I think that's as it ought to be because I'm not a politician." He said, "Oh, Jim, I forgot to tell you. Your invitation came here about three weeks ago and we accepted for you, and I forgot to tell you." So that was the preparation.

JIM LEHRER: So you never sat down with briefing books, or didn't discuss this with Ross Perot in any way whatsoever?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: I never had a single conversation about politics with Ross Perot in my life; still haven't.

JIM LEHRER: Do you feel that you were treated unfairly by this whole thing?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: No, I guess not. I'm a grown man. You know, I've been in a lot of scrapes, but I never felt like I got so -- there are probably a lot of things I should have done that I didn't do. I mean, I didn't - I should have demanded attention of the boss maybe, or something like that that might have backfired. This I would just take as it came.

JIM LEHRER: But in this context, the context was you were not out campaigning, right? You were not out making speeches as the vice presidential candidate of the reform party?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Only a few in early summer, right after I got this call. There were Perot organizations that cropped up around San Diego as in most cities and -

JIM LEHRER: That's where you live, isn't it, San Diego?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Yes. And we - on several occasions they had asked me to give a short speech at the thing and go hurrah for Ross and that sort of thing. But after that, no, nothing.

JIM LEHRER: So in September and October, leading up to the debate, you were not an active candidate; right?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: No. Now, after the debate, Sybil and I opted for Secret Service protection, and then went on some campaigns, but never a flashy performance...

JIM LEHRER: Do you feel that these debates should focus less on issues and more on these character kinds of things?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Yes. I think character is permanent, and issues are transient. Half the issues they - are so polished they're talking about - are dead by the time they get into the office, and into the midst of their tour where they're really productive. So this is just a rhetoric exercise generally. This idea, as you know, that I have firm convictions that the idea of issues being a big deal where our mutual friend went back and he felt so strongly that the determining factor in electoral success should be a proven character. And you've got to design these so that everybody can somehow portray his character.

JIM LEHRER: How would you do that, Admiral?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Well, ask them. What was the most risky, physical provocation you made? I mean, did you - did you strike the commissar, did you - were you willing to go in the ropes? I mean, I really think that I would expect somebody that's leading the country to have some kind of - some kind of courage physically, personally.

JIM LEHRER: In other words, you would ask questions like have you ever been afraid, Senator? Have you -

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: ...If I were up there today, if I could have taken this book and read a few passages from it to the audience, they would have said oh, I get it. He's a novice, but he's had these - he's experienced in leadership in tight circumstances. He started - he dropped the first bomb, led the first air strike into North Vietnam. I see. He's a little bit different, but let's get them all together, and that's -

JIM LEHRER: And those things, you think, are relevant to being president or vice president of the United States.

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: I do.

JIM LEHRER: Why?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Because people are - people are, I think, interested in the quality of the man's experience, and what he's prepared to do. The guy that just arranges things so that the stock market holds up is nobody in my - in my estimation.

JIM LEHRER: And somebody who can stand up and say things about issues in a kind of tight situation on a stage is not a test of presidential or vice-presidential leadership?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Oh, I suppose there are such things as people who have inspirations at just the right time to turn some issues around. I don't want to be just one-way about this, but I think that as I view the political array that they're such babes in the woods about the way the real world works, there's seldom - John McCain, my best friend, has been there, but he's the only one we're talking about now.

JIM LEHRER: But Admiral, what would you say to somebody who said, Hey, wait a minute. If only people who have been through these kinds of experiences are qualified to be president and vice president of the United States, a candidate pool would be very, very small, would it not? It would first of all exclude everybody.

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: I wouldn't limit it. I just think that ... people that should be in politics are not limited to those who go to law school and then get a seat in Congress, and sit there until their time is up. That's a stereotypical American politician, and I think if you look at the whole world, the countries have varied backgrounds, and some of them are warriors, some of them are inventors, some of them are scientists, and we're just stuck on this one stereotypical guy that gets up there and recites these things. It just - the whole thing reminded me of a May pole dance. I was standing there trying to figure out how I could get my oar in and never really did. And they're just exercising right where they live everyday. They'll take an issue like Medicare, and they'll go from this way to that, and there's four different ways you can look at it, and they dance counter-clockwise a while. I said, what am I doing here? How can I break in and tell them this is - that's not the whole story on being the national leader.

JIM LEHRER: ... How did you feel about the reaction in the public and in the press to your performance at that debate?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Well, of course, I - I had more positive feedback than I expected to. For one thing, the referee of the debate was very, very fair.

JIM LEHRER: Was Hal Bruno maybe seen as -

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: I thought he sized up my predicament. I mean, I was a fish out of water, and he was very kind about that, and I'll tell you when my heart turned around. I think it was about three days after we got to Coronado and I picked up the New York Times, as we always do in the morning at our house, and there was Safire's column, and it was a tribute to the way I performed and, I mean, it was - it really just made me feel like a million bucks and I couldn't wait to see him, and hadn't ever met him before, but soon we were in the same company and, I mean, we met. But there were highs as well as lows, it was as though they said everybody was picking on the man who had more practical real life experiences than the whole batch of them put together.

JIM LEHRER: So on balance it was a fairly positive experience?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Yeah. I'm not going to ever do it again, but ...

JIM LEHRER: There's another line here that you were praised for saying, "I believe that a woman owns her own body, and what she does with it is her own business, period."

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: Well, I believe that, and I hadn't given it much thought, but I've got four daughters-in-law that would be pretty mad at me if I'd said much else....

JIM LEHRER: Let me ask you finally this question, Admiral. When it was all said and done, back to the 1992 election, do you think in the final analysis you would have been, in fact, a good vice president of the United States?

ADMIRAL JAMES STOCKDALE: I think so. I think so. I've done nothing but manage - I mean, I'm - yeah, I think I would have been surprisingly good, because I call them like I see them, and I think I'm fair-minded, and I have a good understanding of international law, and all the other accoutrements that are necessary for military decision-making at a high level, and Ike didn't do too badly, did he?

JIM LEHRER: No. Admiral, thank you.