JIM LEHRER: From New Hampshire, we go to three of the so-called battleground states, New Jersey, Texas, and California. We do it with the same three newspaper editors who were with us two weeks ago, Ed Baumeister, Managing Editor of the Trenton, New Jersey Times; Lee Cullum, Editor of the Editorial Page of the Dallas Times Herald, she's at public state KERA in Dallas; and Gerald Warren, Editor of the San Diego Union, who's at public station KPBS in San Diego. Lee Cullum, to you first. Do you agree with the consensus that Bush won the debate?

LEE CULLUM, Dallas Times Herald: Oh, yes, Jim. I don't think there's any question that bush won the debate. And as far as Texas is concerned, he was comfortably ahead by 10 points before last night's encounter with Michael Dukakis. His performance last night could only enhance that lead.

JIM LEHRER: Gerald Warren, how did it look from San Diego?

GERALD WARREN, San Diego Union: It looked the same way. I think everybody agrees that Bush is way ahead nationwide. He's probably not very far ahead in California, but the pollsters I talked to today believe he is moving up in California.

JIM LEHRER: Ed, in Trenton.

ED BAUMEISTER, Trenton Times: I think that's probably true, Jim, that Mr. Bush did win, but in talking to people today, I got a sense that they're beginning to feel malnourished by this whole process, that while they're making up their minds based on, you know, warmth or just sort of intangible things like this, that at the end of this debate part of the process, they really don't have enough to go on.

JIM LEHRER: To go on to make a choice between the two men?

MR. BAUMEISTER: They don't feel firm -- this admittedly small sample I took on the phone and down the street today, they don't think that this process, the debate process, coupled with the sort of drop-in process, you know, they come here and there, Mr. Bush was in Trenton this week, they don't think that that's giving them enough to make up their minds based on the issues, the hard issues, that concern them.

JIM LEHRER: Lee, do the people in Texas want more information on these two men?

MS. CULLUM: Oh, Jim, I don't hear any call for more information. I think they are satisfied with George Bush. They're worried about Mike Dukakis. His negative ratings are astoundingly high, as high as 50 percent. I think Texans feel fairly comfortable with George Bush. He's a native of this state, after all.

JIM LEHRER: What are the negatives? Spell out the negatives, as seen in Texas, that Dukakis has to deal with?

MS. CULLUM: Well, I think that one that hasn't been talked about very much but is beginning to surface in the ads is his stand on defense spending. You know, Texas doesn't like to think about it, but this state is heavily dependent on defense spending. One ad that Chuck Yeager is doing says the state will lose 300,000 jobs if Dukakis is elected. That can enforce a negative impression that certainly flows from his being characterized as a liberal.

JIM LEHRER: Jerry Warren, well, you say that you agree, that everybody agrees that Bush won last night. Tell me why you think he won. What was it that he did that was either superior to Dukakis, or that Dukakis did not do that was inferior to Bush?

GERALD WARREN, San Diego Union: Well, taking the last question first, Jim, Dukakis is unable to inspire America. He is unable to set out a position and talk about that position proudly and warmly and with some heat, and say, this is where America should go and have America follow him. I think George Bush last night staked out his positions once again, pointed out the clear differences between himself and Gov. Dukakis, and took a lot of Americans with him.

JIM LEHRER: Where do you come down on the question that Ed raised, that he felt at least his small sample in New Jersey today, that there's still some question about these two guys, not so in California?

MR. WARREN: I don't think there's -- I know it's not so in San Diego, and I would assume it's not so in California, and I doubt that it's so in the nation. These two pollsters I talked to are both nationally known, who happen to live and work in San Diego or California, both said barring any cataclysmic events it's all over.

JIM LEHRER: All over in New Jersey, Ed?

MR. BAUMEISTER: It may be. A fresh poll hasn't been taken, but I stopped by on the way here to look at another poll that was taken overnight. There was movement among the people who watched the debate.

JIM LEHRER: Which way?

MR. BAUMEISTER: For Bush. Among people who hadn't watched the debate, there was not much movement.

JIM LEHRER: What do you make out of this ABC/Washington Post poll that got so much attention on our program and elsewhere the last 24 hours -- just to refresh, the electoral vote 10,000, they polled 10,000 people in all 50 states, and it gave a huge electoral margin to Bush, which essentially said the election is over -- how did you react to that story?

MR. BAUMEISTER: Well, it's just another piece of the evidence that so much of the coverage is focused on polls and reactions and so forth and the effect it has -- people I talked to mentioned that, that you know, it doesn't matter what we think, if we're for Dukakis, because it's all over in the electoral college. This kind of reporting has a real effect on the campaign I think.

JIM LEHRER: Do you agree, Lee?

MS. CULLUM: Oh, yes, of course, it does. You know, Texans like winners and they don't like losers. If it's the Dallas Cowboys or the Texas Rangers, or a political candidate, they want to be with the winner, it certainly has an effect.

JIM LEHRER: Do you think Vice President Bush was right last night when at one point he turned it around and criticized the press for not covering some of the issues the way that the two candidates have been talking about it, and also covering the polls too much? Do you agree, Lee, with Bush?

MS. CULLUM: Yes, I think that's very possible. I think it's true.

JIM LEHRER: True, Gerry?

MR. WARREN: Well, I'm a little nervous with that position. It is true that we're still covering campaigns the way we covered them 20 years ago, and what's changed is that the polling science is so much better today than it was 20 years ago. We know now almost instantly where this nation stands, and so naturally, we rely on that. It's important to note and to remember though that polls are only as good as the date and time they were taken.

JIM LEHRER: Does it concern you though, Gerry, as an Editor of a major newspaper, that it is now in the journalistic wind and that means it's in the public wind that George Bush has this election won, three weeks, three and a half weeks before a vote is cast?

MR. WARREN: It's too early to give it to George Bush obviously, but, Jim, it didn't start with the press. It started with the public. These pollsters don't call me and ask me how I feel. They call people out in America and in San Diego, and they tell them how they feel at any given time. The polls are saying George Bush, and we're just reporting that.

JIM LEHRER: Ed, what's the solution to this?

MR. BAUMEISTER: Well, I don't know what the solution is, but I think the candidates could contribute more. I mean, I may have missed it, but I don't think either of them has sat down for a one on one interview with somebody like Bill Moyers or one of the commercial anchors, and it seems to me that in the last -- you know, go back 12 years -- that was a sort of a staple of getting to know these people. The candidates are available only in these extremely limited forums, whether the debate's like last night or the visit on Monday to Trenton. George Bush came, went to the Italian section of the town, praised them for their fight against crime, and left. We had really no opportunity to sit down and talk about some of the nitty gritty that affects us. If they contributed more by being more available, I think there'd be less time to go run after the latest poll.

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