MR. MacNEIL: Next, last night's presidential debate as viewed by voters. Over the course of this campaign, with the help of the Times Mirror Center for the People and the Press, Charlayne Hunter-Gault has talked to a variety of voters from key swing groups from around the country. We brought eight of them to New York, where they were joined by two New Yorkers to watch the debates this week and next. Charlayne Hunter-Gault has this report on their reactions to last night's debate.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: It was a diverse group of people from around the country -- Republicans, Democrats, and independents -- but mostly swing voters, considered critical to the outcome of the election. Going into the debates, most of them were undecided about which candidate they would vote for in November. For them, last night's debate could have been decisive. When it was over, the first thing on their minds was Ross Perot.

SCOTT MacCORMACK, Computer Consultant, Republican, Denver: Ross Perot had the most to gain in this debate, and I think did gain the most in this debate.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Why?

SCOTT MacCORMACK: Well, his answers were somewhat simplistic, but that's perhaps good on TV and in the time span he had. He was funny and humorous. Maybe that goes a long way. But I do think he -- I think he had the furthest to go, and I think he showed he's been thinking about this. I didn't hear a lot of solutions, but I heard some. And I frankly through fault of my own haven't heard enough of his -- his platform. But I think he did the most to help himself.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Jason Conley, you once were intrigued by Perot early in the campaign. And then you switched, and the last time we talked, you were pretty solidly for Bush. What do you think of Perot now?

JASON CONLEY, College Student, Republican, Wake Forest University: Oh, he's funny, and he has pinpointed more problems and he's been more precise about those problems, but his solutions are still very simplistic. They don't hold much water, and I don't think his economic plan is the right one for America.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But do you think he's back in it now, I mean, as a real contender?

JASON CONLEY: I think more so than he was. He can't go below the 10 percent base. I see him not rising much above that either though. People are pretty much decided by this time.

GWEN CLINKSCALES, Teacher, Independent, New York City: I think he's definitely back in, and like I said before, it certainly made the debate more exciting. Otherwise, I think the debate would have been quite boring, and I probably would have turned it off, but because of his one-liners, his humor, and the change, you know, the kinds of things that he was talking about, he was a little more real than the other candidates. I mean, he's saying things like "there has to be a gasoline tax." He's saying things that aren't very popular, so he's a little bit more real than the other candidates I think.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What do you think, Robin Ganzert?

ROBIN GANZERT, Accountant, Democrat, Winston-Salem, NC: I agree with you that right now we do need a vehicle for change. I just disagree with the fact that Ross Perot was that vehicle. Quite frankly, the gasoline tax would put us in a worse state of economy, worser state of affairs, than what we currently are in. And quite frankly, Ross Perot would just lead us into more division, in my opinion.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Where do we leave the character issue tonight as a result of the debate?

ANNE GREER, Real Estate Agent, Republican, Columbus, Ohio: We have to remember in 1968 and 1969 there was a thought in the United States of how patriotic people should behave. And Jane Fonda went to Hanoi, and everybody to this day, she's kind of tainted. What in the world would this young man -- I don't care -- college student -- been gifted and given opportunities -- what would he be doing in Russia? Remember, this was the time of Abbie Hoffman and all the other things going on in this country. And everybody wants to wash Bill Clinton off and hang him out there and say he's just a real nice pretty little boy, and give him a lot of credibility. And some of the things that he was saying tonight didn't give me any credibility.

ROBIN GANZERT: It's a ridiculous remark. If I had a chance to go to Russia, I would love to take a study opportunity to go to Russia. It's just, in my opinion, a ridiculous remark. It has no place whatsoever in this campaign.

DR. WILLIAM EURE, Retired Physician, Republican, Hattiesburg, MS: But you know, you have to say, in defense of what Anne said, you have to say that Bill Clinton has not been clear and cohesive in his defense of these charges they've brought against him. Everything -- everything that he has done to defend the charges for his personal behavior, for his trip to Russia, the bits and pieces, and it's been incoherent and not cohesive. And we hear bits and pieces of remarks coming out at different times. And so it makes you wonder. You just have -- you can't but wonder why is he so inconclusive when he tries to convince us that those are not worthy charges?

SCOTT MacCORMACK: I think it was wrong of Bush to bring it up, and I think it's been wrong of Clinton to be as indecisive about putting it to rest. Those are not qualities I want in leaders. So who gains by that? We're back to Ross Perot. That's his position, to gain as these two guys tear at each other through negative campaigns and so on. So both candidates hurt themselves, I think. And everybody they do that, Perot gains.

MARTHA MacCORMACK, Teacher, Democrat, Denver: I think it's interesting that we keep hearing about the character of Clinton or Bush, but we have yet to hear about Perot's character. He stood back tonight and said that people make mistakes when they are young but when they make mistakes when they're mature, that's when we have to be concerned. And I wonder what he -- his underlying message is. Is there a mistake that we don't know about that is his?

JAMBE CLINKSCALES, Computer Technician, Democrat, New York City: I think that what he might have been alluding to is perhaps comparing what Clinton did as a youth in Moscow, and I think what you said is right, that is to be looked at because it goes to character, but if you are going to compare what he did as a young man before he got in office, then you've got to compare that to what somebody in office, who was the vice president, and what did he do during that time. And the issue I'm referring to is the Iran-Contra thing. He's -- Bush has constantly said that he didn't know anything about that, but there's been some evidence lately that perhaps he might have been in the loop, even though he said he hasn't. There's also this thing about loans to -- going to Iran to keep -- I mean to Iraq to keep Iraq boosted up. So there's questions there. If you are going to compare the character judgments that Clinton made when he was young, you have to also compare the judgments and what Bush has been saying about what he did when he was the vice president.

JASON CONLEY: Bush opened a wound, yet again, but he didn't go for the kill. The entire thing, Moscow was just a small piece of, of Bill Clinton's disceptiveness. No, we don't know definitively what he did in Russia, but we know there are bits and pieces of contradictory statements on his part. And I think that's been true on his stance in the Gulf War, on his stance on what should be done in Yugoslavia, on his stance on a number of issues, on his marijuana, about his marital infidelity, and this shows a bit of deception, the character of a man who was willing to say anything and to readjust what he says according to what the American people want, according to which truth is the most popular.

DR. WILLIAM EURE: You know, Charlayne, on the issue of character, the point was made that in maturity we have to be careful that we don't make the wrong decision. I think Ross Perot has bankrupt his currency of trust. If he can't stand the heat of the media's questioning him and if he wants to withdraw from the campaign halfway through, how do we know that three months into the presidency he might decide to go back to Dallas and leave his vice president?

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What about the point President Bush continued to make, that he's tired of these people running down America, and you know, America has a lot to be proud of, did that resonate with anyone? I mean, was that --

GWEN CLINKSCALES: I kept thinking that President Bush does not take the subway to Washington Heights, where I go every day, and he doesn't see the same America that I see. He doesn't see all the people laying in the -- in the subway sleeping and using it as their home. He doesn't see the people in Washington Heights, two and three families in one apartment. And it's not because they're not working. It's because they're working, but they're not making enough money to rent their own apartment. He must be seeing a totally different place in America than what I'm seeing every day.

ROBIN GANZERT: She's in New York. I'm in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. We see similar situations, homeless on the street asking for work, food for work.

JASON CONLEY: Well, I think you need to look at the situation relatively, how bad is America. Well, is it horrible? Look at 1929. Look at 1979. Look at Somalia. Look at the Soviet Union. It could be worse. And I think that's what he's saying. He's comparing our economy to quite devastated ones. And of course there's going to be poverty no matter, in any economy, because, you know, because unlimited demand and scare resources, and it will happen every time.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Some of you have said that you really didn't see a lot of difference, particularly between President Bush and Gov. Clinton. Let me just run around the room right quick on this. I mean, did this in any way clarify for you the difference between the two men, and you can throw Ross Perot in too. I mean, were the differences clarified for you at all enough to give you some sense that you might go this way or might go that way?

STEPHEN HERRING, Substitute Teacher, Republican, Hattiesburg, MS: Bush's main thing all along has been that he is a world leader in world peace, and the gulf war and this type situation, which I've known that all along. Maybe he hasn't addressed the economy like he should -- and I think he could in the future with the help of Congress -- but -- and Clinton, his constant thing was that it's time for a change. And Perot, he had a lot of one-liners. I think everyone in there has said that. But he never really had any solutions for a lot of things. He agreed that many things need to be changed, but he didn't have much to say about how to change it. I don't think I'll vote for Perot. I don't think he's electable.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What about the other two?

STEPHEN HERRING: The other two, I'm kind of straddled on the fence, as someone else mentioned.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Robin Ganzert.

ROBIN GANZERT: The debate tonight reinforced my opinion that Bush does not have a vision for reforming America during the next four years. They enforced my feelings for Clinton. He performed very well. He looked like a true statesman. His answers were very well stated. He had statistics to back it up, and I'm going to vote for Clinton still.

JAMBEY CLINKSCALES: I think this is the second time that Bush has had an opportunity to speak to me and convince me that he could do better in the next four years than he has this four years. And I'm not sure that he did anything in that direction. I think that although I'm leaning towards Clinton, I still have my doubts, but I was impressed, if anything, with his sincerity. He seemed to look at the camera lot, to look at the American people like he was talking directly to them. I think Ross Perot has a good prescription but I'm not sure of his heart and whether he's able to stick out the process of government, which is just constant negotiation.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Mrs. Clinkscales.

GWEN CLINKSCALES: Well, I've certainly moved further from President Bush because his view of America is very different from mine. Ross Perot, I'm a little -- I'm afraid of. I mean, he even said, I'm not sure if you're going to put me in Washington. I mean, he wasn't that sure of himself. I'm not thrilled with everything that Clinton said, but I'm still a little confused, but moving that way.

JASON CONLEY: The debates really helped me understand Clinton's passion and Perot's passion about what the problems are and their willingness to solve the problems, but also reinforced my feelings that they don't know quite how to solve the problems. They seemed a bit idealistic, a bit quick with their answers, and not quite prudent enough to be president of the United States.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: And Bush, President Bush.

JASON CONLEY: Yes. I think he reinforced his trustworthiness. I think he defended his record well, but in the next debate, I think he needs to go a little more on the attack.

DR. WILLIAM EURE: I'm scared of Gov. Clinton. I don't think he has the maturity or he certainly demonstrated to me his lack of knowledge of Asian affairs about the China thing, so I'm going to vote for Bush as it stands now. I'm not enthusiastic, but that's where I'm going to go.

ALLEN RAMSAY, Graduate Student, Independent, Wake Forest University: Bush, overall, I was very disappointed with. I expected a much more specific action plan from him. Clinton seemed very sincere. I enjoyed the statistics just out of interest.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Because you're a business major.

ALLEN RAMSAY: I guess that could be it. And, again, maybe the lesser of three evils, but I felt like Clinton was more sincere and looked even more presidential than he has even in the past.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Anne Greer.

ANNE GREER: I'm having a very difficult time, I really am, because I don't feel that what I consider the real problem's being addressed.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Scott MacCormack.

SCOTT MacCORMACK: Well, I -- I think about Reagan when he ran. He had a vision, like it or not, and I think what we're getting from George Bush is --

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: And you voted for Reagan.

SCOTT MacCORMACK: In the first election -- or the second election, I believe, where he asked the question: "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?" And I had to answer yes at that time. Bush is not asking that question. Bush is saying, give me a shot, you'll be better four years from now. There's no vision. There's just management. He's managing old practices, some might be good, some aren't. I'm not seeing enough vision from George Bush. I was disappointed in him frankly tonight. I don't think he did that well. I thought he was shaky. Statistics are for losers. And I was really looking for Clinton to come out strong, because I've really been being pulled that way. And I think I'm probably still leaning that way a little bit. I was very disappointed in George Bush in the sense that I didn't have more of a vision and I was disappointed in Clinton that he didn't come across stronger to me with his vision. Perot had a vision and that vision scares me. I'm still on the fence.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Martha MacCormack.

MARTHA MacCORMACK: I don't know if any of it was clarified for me other than the fact that I still think it's the lesser of three evils at this point. As someone I work with said "the problem of the election is someone is bound to win." And I don't know who is going to give us the best at this point.

MR. LEHRER: Charlayne will talk to these voters again after the remaining three campaign debates.