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SIR DAVID FROST: People have said, Mr. President, you know, that the same
meticulous planning that went into winning the war didn't go into
winning the peace, and we were a bit unprepared for some of the
surprises - the unpleasant surprises -
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Yes.
 SIR
DAVID FROST: -- you know, the terrorists and all of that that
came along. Is that a fair comment?
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Ah - No. (Chuckles.) It's not a fair comment. We look at
all contingencies and are dealing with the contingencies. Look,
let me - if I could step back and maybe think out loud here about
some of the stories or some of the speculation that was going
on before we went into Iraq: one, that, you know, the oil revenues
would be blown up, the oil fields would be destroyed; they weren't.
As a matter of fact, oil production is up to 2.1 or 2.2 million
barrels a day, to the benefit of the Iraqi people. That's a very
important point. Remember there was speculation about sectarian
violence, that the long-suppressed Kurds or Shi'a make take out
their anxieties and their frustrations on the Sunnis. That didn't
happen. There was talk about mass starvation. It didn't happen.
Refugee flows that would be unmanageable - that never happened,
and so a lot of the contingencies
that we had planned for didn't happen.
What
has happened is that, in a relatively small part of the country,
there are Baathists -
SIR
DAVID FROST: You call it now the Baathist Triangle -
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Yes, Sunni Triangle - they are attacking, and they're attacking
not only coalition forces, they're attacking innocent Iraqis because
what they're trying to do is stop the spread of progress.
SIR DAVID FROST: It's almost a guerrilla war there, really.
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Well, I would call it a desperate attempt, by people who
were in - totally in control of government through tyrannical
means, to regain power. This is nothing more than a power grab.
Now there are some foreign fighters - Mujahideen types or al-Qaida,
or al-Qaida affiliates involved, as well. They've got a different
mission; they want to install a Taliban-type government in Iraq,
or they want to seek revenge for getting whipped in Afghanistan.
But nevertheless, they all have now found common ground for a
brief period of time, and what we will do is we will use Iraqi
intelligence, we will use Iraqi security forces -- we're up to
about 118,000 Iraqi folks in one type of uniform or another securing
the country - to be an
integral part of chasing these killers down and to bring them
to justice
before they kill innocent life.
In
Iraq For the Long Haul?
 SIR
DAVID FROST: But it must have taken us a bit by surprise or otherwise
we'd have prepared for it - the level of this, the combination
of the, what, 700 - perhaps - foreign terrorists who came into
Iraq, and so on. That was -
PRESIDENT
BUSH: You know, I don't think so. I think - listen, a lot of those
people who came in initially wish they hadn't come in initially.
They're not wishing at all right now, but no, I - we understood
it was going to be tough. We've been there for seven months, David,
which seems like a long time, particularly given the news cycles
the way they are. I'm certainly not complaining about the news
cycles, but it - nevertheless, there's a certain sense of impatience
that has now crept into the world, and my job is to enable our
operators and military to make adjustments necessary to succeed.
And we've got the same strategy, which is a peaceful Iraq; the
tactics shift depending upon the decisions of the enemy, and we're
making progress. That's not to say it's not tough. Of course it's
tough. But what they want to do is they want to shake the will
of the free world, and the good news about having a partner like
Tony Blair is he won't be shaken, you see, and neither will I.
And neither will Jose Maria Aznar.
I
heard Berlusconi stand up with a strong statement after the Italian
police had been murdered, and we sent - of course sent our sympathies
and prayers to the Italian people there, but Berlusconi said,
"They're not going to run us out." And that's what these
terrorists need to hear. And more importantly - or as importantly
- the Iraqi citizens need to hear that. They need to know that
we won't leave the country prematurely. They need to know two
things: we're not going to cut and run; and two, we believe they
have the capacity to run their own country.
SIR DAVID FROST: Well, as - the cut-and-run thing, obviously, is absolutely
vital. When you said you're not going to cut and run, you'll be
there as long as it takes. Tony Blair, in his speech on Monday
night, said, "We're not going to retreat one inch."
I mean, we are there for as - how long it takes to produce a successful
Iraqi democracy, are we?
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Yes, absolutely.
SIR DAVID FROST: Whether that's years and years, or what?
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Well, we don't think it will be years and years because,
first of all, we think the Iraqi people are plenty capable of
running their own country, and we think they want to run their
own country. See, some in the world - some in the world don't
believe that Iraq can run itself; in other words, they believe
that - well, might as well let them have a military dictatorship
or a tyrant. That's the only way they can be governed. I disagree,
and Tony Blair disagrees with that. We believe that democracy
will take hold in Iraq, and we believe a free and democratic Iraq
will help change the Middle East. There are hundreds of reformers
that are desperate for freedom. Freedom - freedom is not America's
gift to the world or Great Britain's gift to the world. Freedom
is the Almighty's gift to everybody who lives in the world.
SIR DAVID FROST: Is there any likelihood that Saddam himself could be behind
this violence?
PRESIDENT
BUSH: I - you know, Saddam Hussein is a violent man. Listen, he
- he tortured and maimed and killed, he had rape rooms, and people
disappeared because they spoke out against him, we've discovered
mass graves. He's a brutal, brutal tyrant - brutal tyrant.
We
did the Iraqi people a great favor by removing him, and so I wouldn't
be surprised that any kind of violence is promoted by him, but
I don't know - I don't know. All I know is we're after him.
The
Dangers of Regime-Change
SIR DAVID FROST: Because that's one of the interesting things that - I mean,
nobody has time for or a moment for Saddam Hussein. Some people
are worried, in England and around the world, by the idea of regime
change because they say once we've done regime change - Britain
and America -
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Yes.
SIR DAVID FROST: -- with Saddam Hussein, what can we say if India wants
to do regime change with - not Pakistan - or Pakistan wants to
do regime change with India?
 PRESIDENT
BUSH: Yes, well, see, I - that's - yes, I can understand their
concerns except they forgot the history. This issue has been discussed
in the United Nations for over a decade, and the United Nations,
as a - kind of multilateral international body, passed resolution
after resolution after resolution calling for Saddam Hussein to
disarm. In other words, the diplomatic process went forward. There
was plenty of diplomacy. And I would - to the critics I would
say that there will be diplomacy when it comes to India and Pakistan.
The world will speak out clearly.
The
problem is, is that when the world speaks out clearly and then
nothing happens - all we've got is empty words - its tyrants take
advantage of that. Tyrants - if tyrants don't fear, feel like
they can torture and kill with impunity, feel like they can blackmail
the world, and all the world does is put out empty words, it makes
multilateralism extremely ineffective.
Obviously
not every situation needs to be solved militarily. The military
option is the last option as far as I'm concerned. And I would
refer people to North Korea where we've got a multilateral attempt
to convince Kim Jong Ilto get rid of his nuclear ambitions. We
understand -- just like Saddam Hussein -- that he has been torturous
to his people. The - you know, people in North Korea are starving
to death, and that weapons of mass destruction in his hands, given
his history - just like weapons of mass destruction in Saddam's
hands, given his history - is a very dangerous element. It's dangerous.
It is - inhibits the capacity for peace and freedom to spread.
But
what I've done is I've convinced China and South Korea, and Japan,
and Russia to speak with one voice to the North Korean and say,
"Get rid of your nuclear ambitions." We're also, at
the same time, working on a counter-proliferation regime that
will stop his ability to ship weapons of mass destruction or a
nuclear warhead to a terrorist group. In other words, we're working
together in multilateral, multinational fashion to bring peace
and stability to the world.
Would
He Rather Be Defeated By the Voters Than By the Terrorists?
SIR DAVID FROST: Someone who knows how passionate you are about this war
on terror and the - and Iraq and so on, said, "I know George
Bush, and I think, in terms of his legacy, he'd rather - I'll
tell you how strongly he feels," he said. "He'd rather
be defeated by the voters than by the terrorists." Is that
true?
PRESIDENT
BUSH: (Chuckles.) I'd rather not be defeated by either. (Laughter.)
And we will not be defeated by the terrorists. And I say that
confidently because the allies in the war on terror are strong
and steadfast, and there's no stronger and steadfast ally in the
war on terror than Tony Blair. He understands the stakes. He knows
that freedom is being challenged. He understands, as well, that
the spread of freedom and democracy in the long run will defeat
terror. And that's why the battle, the stakes are so high in Iraq
right now.
By
the way, Iraq is a front in the war on terror. And it's important
for people to understand that, because the war takes place elsewhere.
SIR DAVID FROST: And the - and in - one of the reasons that people say in
the Arab world -- that you won't really be able to redress the
balance against America until - until the United States is seen
not to tilt towards Israel - (President Bush chuckles) - in the
Middle East.
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Yeah.
SIR DAVID FROST: What do you think about that?
 PRESIDENT
BUSH: I think about that - you know, I think it's an excuse -
I'm the first president ever to go to the United Nations -
SIR DAVID FROST: And say two -
PRESIDENT
BUSH: -- two states side by side in peace. No president has ever
said that. And I said it, and I said it with conviction, because
I believe it is in Israel's interest that there be a peaceful
Palestinian state. And I know it's in the Palestinians' interest.
However, to achieve a peaceful Palestinian state, the emergence
of a peaceful Palestinian state, a state where people are
willing to risk capital, a place where people are willing to develop
an economy, there must be a focused effort to defeat terror. And
there hasn't been with the current Palestinian leadership.
I
went and embraced in Aqaba, Jordan Abu Mazen. And the reason I
did so, David, is because he came to the Oval Office and he said
"I will join you in the fight against terror. We're not going
to allow the few to destroy the hopes of the many." As well,
I could sense in his talk, in his feeling, that he's got great
trust in the Palestinian people. In other words, given a chance,
the Palestinian people will develop the habits of democracy, and
out of that will come a great state, a peaceful state. And I trusted
him. And we were working with him. We were making good progress.
I
was working with Ariel Sharon. I gave a speech on June 24, 2002,
which says all of us have responsibilities, and you, Israel, have
a responsibility.
SIR DAVID FROST: Do you think Ariel Sharon could ever emerge as a man of
peace?
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Yes, I do.
SIR DAVID FROST: Do you really?
PRESIDENT
BUSH: I believe he wants peace for his people -- truly do. I mean,
you know, look. I mean, he's a man who has presided over suiciders,
where he has to go to the funerals of women and children because
some cold-blooded killer is trying to destroy the hopes of all
the people in the region. And, yes, I believe so. And I believe
he believes in the Palestinian state. I've asked him in the Oval
Office. I said, "Listen, am I out there by myself on the
Palestinian state, or will you support it?" And he said he
will. But both of us understand, as do a lot of other people,
that for a state to emerge, there must be a focused effort to
get after the Hamas killers, for example, who want to destroy
the hopes of the people that believe in a Palestinian state.
Lessons
From the Oval Office
SIR DAVID FROST: As we approach the end of this interview, what would you
say is the most important lesson you've learned in life in the
presidency?
 PRESIDENT
BUSH: The most important lesson in life in the presidency? Have
a clear vision of where you want to lead, and lead. And I've got
a clear vision. It's a world that is more free and therefore more
peaceful; a world based upon human rights, human dignity and justice;
a vision that does not discriminate between one group of people
or another, because I believe all people have the desire to be
free. And I'm willing to lead there. And, you know, the people
of this country will make the decision. You asked about politics.
They'll make the decision as to whether or not they - I've been
honest with them and open with them and whether or not they like
my leadership style. A lot of it will have to do on the economy,
of course, whether or not I get another four years.
But,
no, I think it's important to know where you want to lead, and
lead.
SIR DAVID FROST: Would you hope to present to the country the same team
-- Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, and Colin Powell, and Condi
Rice for the second term?
PRESIDENT
BUSH: It's been a fabulous team -- and Cheney for certain. And
I haven't - obviously, I'm not going to talk to my cabinet ministers
until after the election. And - but I'm proud of this team. I've
put together one of the finest teams, one of the finest administrations
any president has ever assembled. These are good, honest, decent,
hard-working, experienced people who give me good, unvarnished
advice. And when I make a decision, say "Yes, sir, Mr. President,
we'll go execute it."
SIR DAVID FROST: Well, thank you for your decision to do this interview.
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Thank you, sir. Enjoyed seeing you.
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