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ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Finally tonight, a Gergen dialogue. David Gergen
engages Helen Fisher, Professor of Anthropology at Rutgers University
and author of The First Sex: The Natural Talents of Women and How
They are Changing the World.
DAVID GERGEN: Among young adults in America today, ages 25 to 35, women
are better educated than men-- first time in our history.
HELEN FISHER: Right.
DAVID GERGEN: Is this something fundamentally new, as we think, or is
history, ancient history, repeating itself?
HELEN FISHER: Ancient history is repeating itself. Actually, for millions
of years we lived in these egalitarian hunting and gathering societies.
Women commuted to work. They came home from work with much of the evening
meal. The double-income family was the rule, and women were probably
just as well-educated as men. But certainly, the fact that women are
now becoming better educated than men, not only in America, but in parts
of Western Europe, too -- and we're going to see it around the world.
The United Nations has looked in 130 societies, and, indeed, women are
gaining an education in every single one of those cultures.
DAVID GERGEN: And they have come into the job market at a time when
jobs are changing - the nature of jobs are changing to fit their natural
talents.
HELEN FISHER: That is the most important thing that I discovered. You
know, when I started this book, I had no agenda. I knew women were piling
into the job market and I knew they came with some natural talents.
So I started out really wondering, "well, what impact will they
have on medicine, on law, on communications industries, on business?"
But I ended up finding, I read about all of these parts of the economy,
that much of the economy is changing in ways that actually need the
female mind.
DAVID GERGEN: In what way?
HELEN FISHER: Well, for example, I mean, the communications industry
is just booming. I mean, we're about to have 500 channels on television.
Now, who's going to do all that talking? I mean -- (Laughs) --
I mean, women are really good with words - basic articulation -- which
is finding the right word rapidly, goes up in the middle of the menstrual
cycle, when estrogen levels peak, so this -- basic language skills are
associated with the female hormone, estrogen, and even with menopause,
women are better at many language skills. So it's not only in all of
the communications industry, but we're in the information age. People
have to go to school. They've got to learn to read and write. They need
to read the newspapers, and all kinds of -- acquire information. And
women have a way with words, and that's power.
DAVID GERGEN: But it's also -- you made the point that organizations
have changed. They're no longer are as hierarchical - they're flatter
-- and there are more Web relationships, and women are particularly
good at Web relationships. They see in context.
HELEN FISHER: Women are - you know, the first chapter of the book is
called "Web Thinking, Women's Contextual View," and indeed,
as I was reading along, I didn't really know this. I didn't know any
of this material before I started the book. But, as it turns out, women
take a more holistic, more contextual view of any subject at hand. They'd
to think in webs of factors, not straight lines. So I called this web
thinking. This is Web thinking. This is why women are so good at multi
tasking, doing several things at the same time, but -- and men are more
linear thinkers. They tend to -- what I call step thinking. They compartmentalize.
They get rid of extraneous data, and then they move in a step-by- step
fashion towards a conclusion. And, indeed, in business today, the buzzwords
in business are now "systems thinking," "breath of vision,"
"depth of vision." And, indeed, women bring that to the business
community.
DAVID GERGEN: The decline of males -- you mentioned. Lionel Tiger, your
colleague at Rutgers, wrote a book by that title, of course, and he
was just here on this show - arguing, yes, women are coming out, but
that there is a serious problem here, and that is that men feel more
and more alienated from the family. They feel detached. They don't feel
like they have a place there. And therefore, there is something to worry
about in this - these changes you're discussing.
HELEN FISHER: Yes. Well, for every trend, there's a counter-trend. I
mean, we're - as Francis Bacon said, "the world is a winding stair.
One doesn't go straight to the top, either men or women." And there's
all kinds of things to worry about. So as a matter of fact, I think
there's things to worry about with women in the future of the family,
too. I mean -- however, we always hear about the bad parts. Let me just
tell you a couple of the good parts. One of them is that we're moving
towards these peer marriages, what they call symmetrical marriages or
companionate marriages. And these are marriages between equals. I mean,
for so much of our history, it was men's responsibility, entire responsibility
for the financial health of the family and women were entirely responsible
for the home. Now we finally have time in which men and women can put
their heads together, work as a team, work the way they did, actually,
for millions of years on the grasslands of Africa.
DAVID GERGEN: There's so much here I'd like to discuss. You mentioned
estrogen and testosterone.
HELEN FISHER: Right.
DAVID GERGEN: These different hormones-one's female, the other male,
in orientation-- do they really drive the differences that do exist
between men and women?
HELEN FISHER: Well, first of all, we're all a vast mix of male and female,
all of us. But, on average, men have a great deal more testosterone
and women have a great deal more estrogen. And there are just hundreds
of studies now that show that these have an impact. Now, culture has
an impact, also. Bu in fact, if you inject a fish or a lizard or a monkey
with testosterone, it begins to fight for rank. Men are much more interested
in rank than women are. Women are more interested in balancing work
and family, and that seems to be estrogen-related. So men's spatial
skills are directly related to testosterone. And, indeed, some 90 percent
of architects are men, some 80 percent of engineers and mathematicians
are men. I'm not surprised. But what's interesting is we're finally
in a time in human evolution where those women who want to go into math
or engineering or architecture can do it.
DAVID GERGEN: But I want to ask you, to what extent even as they do
it, biology becomes destiny?
HELEN FISHER: Yes.
DAVID GERGEN: To what extent, in this drive toward parity, are we going
to fall short simply because of our biology?
HELEN FISHER: They're not going to have parity in certain parts of the
workplace. And in the fields of education , I think men are going to
not only reach parity, but probably be the first sex. In communications
they're going to take over middle management. They already write most
of the books. 54 percent of books are now written by women. Over 50
percent of journalists and editors are now women. 50 percent of law
students and medical students are now women. So certain parts of the
job market, women are going to shine. In other parts of the job market,
I think men will maintain their edge. In traditional corporations, 95
percent of CEO's are still men. And I think that's largely because men
are more willing, because of levels of testosterone, to jeopardize their
health, their safety, their leisure time, to get ahead. So we're going
to see some parts of the work force where there's real general equality.
Other parts where women are going to probably dominate, and some parts
where men are going to dominate.
DAVID GERGEN: In the home place, will there come a time when men actually
pull as much weight as women? Will they ever be as nurturing as women
are with children and be as good as raising children?
HELEN FISHER: It's so interesting that you say "pull their own
weight." I honestly think that a lot of men do pull their own weight.
They pull it differently. In every culture in the world where anthropologists
have looked, in 168 societies, even where women are exceedingly economically
powerful, women do the vast majority of the raising of the very small
children. Women are interested in babies. They bear the babies. They've
got the high levels of estrogen associated with the nurturing of the
very young. Men are natural protectors, natural providers, and they
play simply -- they simply play a different role -- no, the answer is,
women will continue to be the nurturers of the very young.
DAVID GERGEN: You and Lionel Tiger looked at the same data, the same
anthropological data, the same evolutionary trends. He was a little
pessimistic about it. You seem very optimistic.
HELEN FISHER: Yes. You know, I am an optimist. I don't quite know why,
except for the fact that we are - if there ever was a time in evolution
to be a woman, that time is now. I mean, women are better educated,
they've got more business opportunities, they make more interesting
companions; they're expressing their sexuality. We're able to choose
partners for ourselves. I mean, if there ever was a time in human evolution
when both men and women have the opportunity to express their real selves,
that time is now. Now, I know that there are problems in the world.
I mean, all we have to do is pick up any newspaper to discover that.
But if you go back 100 years in America and see what men and women were
doing, their opportunities were nowhere near what they are today.
DAVID GERGEN: Dr. Helen Fisher, thank you.
HELEN FISHER: Thank you.
ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Finally tonight, a Gergen dialogue. David Gergen
engages Helen Fisher, Professor of Anthropology at Rutgers University
and author of "The First Sex: The Natural Talents of Women and
How They are Changing the World."
DAVID GERGEN: Among young adults in America today, ages 25 to 35, women
are better educated than men-- first time in our history.
HELEN FISHER: Right.
DAVID GERGEN: Is this something fundamentally new, as we think, or is
history, ancient history, repeating itself?
HELEN FISHER: Ancient history is repeating itself. Actually, for millions
of years we lived in these egalitarian hunting and gathering societies.
Women commuted to work. They came home from work with much of the evening
meal. The double-income family was the rule, and women were probably
just as well-educated as men. But certainly, the fact that women are
now becoming better educated than men, not only in America, but in parts
of Western Europe, too -- and we're going to see it around the world.
The United Nations has looked in 130 societies, and, indeed, women are
gaining an education in every single one of those cultures.
DAVID GERGEN: And they have come into the job market at a time when
jobs are changing - the nature of jobs are changing to fit their natural
talents.
HELEN FISHER: That is the most important thing that I discovered. You
know, when I started this book, I had no agenda. I knew women were piling
into the job market and I knew they came with some natural talents.
So I started out really wondering, "well, what impact will they
have on medicine, on law, on communications industries, on business?"
But I ended up finding, I read about all of these parts of the economy,
that much of the economy is changing in ways that actually need the
female mind.
DAVID GERGEN: In what way?
HELEN FISHER: Well, for example, I mean, the communications industry
is just booming. I mean, we're about to have 500 channels on television.
Now, who's going to do all that talking? I mean -- (Laughs) --
I mean, women are really good with words - basic articulation -- which
is finding the right word rapidly, goes up in the middle of the menstrual
cycle, when estrogen levels peak, so this -- basic language skills are
associated with the female hormone, estrogen, and even with menopause,
women are better at many language skills. So it's not only in all of
the communications industry, but we're in the information age. People
have to go to school. They've got to learn to read and write. They need
to read the newspapers, and all kinds of -- acquire information. And
women have a way with words, and that's power.
DAVID GERGEN: But it's also -- you made the point that organizations
have changed. They're no longer are as hierarchical - they're flatter
-- and there are more Web relationships, and women are particularly
good at Web relationships. They see in context.
HELEN FISHER: Women are - you know, the first chapter of the book is
called "Web Thinking, Women's Contextual View," and indeed,
as I was reading along, I didn't really know this. I didn't know any
of this material before I started the book. But, as it turns out, women
take a more holistic, more contextual view of any subject at hand. They'd
to think in webs of factors, not straight lines. So I called this web
thinking. This is Web thinking. This is why women are so good at multi
tasking, doing several things at the same time, but -- and men are more
linear thinkers. They tend to -- what I call step thinking. They compartmentalize.
They get rid of extraneous data, and then they move in a step-by- step
fashion towards a conclusion. And, indeed, in business today, the buzzwords
in business are now "systems thinking," "breath of vision,"
"depth of vision." And, indeed, women bring that to the business
community.
DAVID GERGEN: The decline of males -- you mentioned. Lionel Tiger, your
colleague at Rutgers, wrote a book by that title, of course, and he
was just here on this show - arguing, yes, women are coming out, but
that there is a serious problem here, and that is that men feel more
and more alienated from the family. They feel detached. They don't feel
like they have a place there. And therefore, there is something to worry
about in this - these changes you're discussing.
HELEN FISHER: Yes. Well, for every trend, there's a countertrend I mean,
we're - as Francis Bacon said, "the world is a winding stair. One
doesn't go straight to the top, either men or women." And there's
all kinds of things to worry about. So as a matter of fact, I think
there's things to worry about with women in the future of the family,
too. I mean -- however, we always hear about the bad parts. Let me just
tell you a couple of the good parts. One of them is that we're moving
towards these peer marriages, what they call symmetrical marriages or
companionate marriages. And these are marriages between equals. I mean,
for so much of our history, it was men's responsibility, entire responsibility
for the financial health of the family and women were entirely responsible
for the home. Now we finally have time in which men and women can put
their heads together, work as a team, work the way they did, actually,
for millions of years on the grasslands of Africa.
DAVID GERGEN: There's so much here I'd like to discuss. You mentioned
estrogen and testosterone.
HELEN FISHER: Right.
DAVID GERGEN: These different hormones-one's female, the other male,
in orientation-- do they really drive the differences that do exist
between men and women?
HELEN FISHER: Well, first of all, we're all a vast mix of male and female,
all of us. But, on average, men have a great deal more testosterone
and women have a great deal more estrogen. And there are just hundreds
of studies now that show that these have an impact. Now, culture has
an impact, also. Bu in fact, if you inject a fish or a lizard or a monkey
with testosterone, it begins to fight for rank. Men are much more interested
in rank than women are. Women are more interested in balancing work
and family, and that seems to be estrogen-related. So men's spatial
skills are directly related to testosterone. And, indeed, some 90 percent
of architects are men, some 80 percent of engineers and mathematicians
are men. I'm not surprised. But what's interesting is we're finally
in a time in human evolution where those women who want to go into math
or engineering or architecture can do it.
DAVID GERGEN: But I want to ask you, to what extent even as they do
it, biology becomes destiny?
HELEN FISHER: Yes.
DAVID GERGEN: To what extent, in this drive toward parity, are we going
to fall short simply because of our biology?
HELEN FISHER: They're not going to have parity in certain parts of the
workplace. And in the fields of education , I think men are going to
not only reach parity, but probably be the first sex. In communications
they're going to take over middle management. They already write most
of the books. 54 percent of books are now written by women. Over 50
percent of journalists and editors are now women. 50 percent of law
students and medical students are now women. So certain parts of the
job market, women are going to shine. In other parts of the job market,
I think men will maintain their edge. In traditional corporations, 95
percent of CEO's are still men. And I think that's largely because men
are more willing, because of levels of testosterone, to jeopardize their
health, their safety, their leisure time, to get ahead. So we're going
to see some parts of the work force where there's real general equality.
Other parts where women are going to probably dominate, and some parts
where men are going to dominate.
DAVID GERGEN: In the home place, will there come a time when men actually
pull as much weight as women? Will they ever be as nurturing as women
are with children and be as good as raising children?
HELEN FISHER: It's so interesting that you say "pull their own
weight." I honestly think that a lot of men do pull their own weight.
They pull it differently. In every culture in the world where anthropologists
have looked, in 168 societies, even where women are exceedingly economically
powerful, women do the vast majority of the raising of the very small
children. Women are interested in babies. They bear the babies. They've
got the high levels of estrogen associated with the nurturing of the
very young. Men are natural protectors, natural providers, and they
play simply -- they simply play a different role -- no, the answer is,
women will continue to be the nurturers of the very young.
DAVID GERGEN: You and Lionel Tiger looked at the same data, the same
anthropological data, the same evolutionary trends. He was a little
pessimistic about it. You seem very optimistic.
HELEN FISHER: Yes. You know, I am an optimist. I don't quite know why,
except for the fact that we are - if there ever was a time in evolution
to be a woman, that time is now. I mean, women are better educated,
they've got more business opportunities, they make more interesting
companions; they're expressing their sexuality. We're able to choose
partners for ourselves. I mean, if there ever was a time in human evolution
when both men and women have the opportunity to express their real selves,
that time is now. Now, I know that there are problems in the world.
I mean, all we have to do is pick up any newspaper to discover that.
But if you go back 100 years in America and see what men and women were
doing, their opportunities were nowhere near what they are today.
DAVID GERGEN: Dr. Helen Fisher, thank you.
HELEN FISHER: Thank you.
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