Rubin Answered Your Questions on Afghanistan

He asked, "What is the general state of the country in regards to any improvements in the people's lives, infrastructure, et cetera?"

Gary Magnuson from Seattle says, "Out of the Afghan population, what percentage were actually affiliated with al-Qaida, originally and now? I read a book by a British journalist who walked across much of Afghanistan and it seemed the towns were more like individual fiefdoms, and not really connected, and yet we attacked the country as a whole."

ELIZABETH RUBIN: That last point is really important -- it's what makes, you know, NATO's involvement very difficult. It is -- every village is its own little country. Every tribe has its own system.

There's, you know, each area you go to has its own political, economic and ideological affiliation. And so, it's really hard to unify the country, and also to govern the country as a whole.

The question about the percentages -- again, it's impossible to know. People tend to switch sides, depending on who's more powerful, because the villagers don't really care, as long as they have security.

On the question of have we brought any significant improvement in people's lives -- the first thing people want is security, and that was actually better under the Taliban.

JEFFREY BROWN: Security?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Yeah, security was better. People were not afraid of being robbed, or killed, and now that's really changed.

People are afraid to send their kids to school, partly because the Taliban are burning the schools down, and people are afraid of the roads, because there's robberies again. And those robberies are by all sorts of people. The Taliban got rid of highway robbery. And that has, you know, I've talked to truck drivers who, going from Kabul to Helmut, which is about an eight hour, nine hour drive, they're stopped probably 30 times to give tolls. And that had stopped under the Taliban.

So, to some extent the most important factor in people's lives, security, is worse now.

JEFFREY BROWN: Well, this is John Barbee from Glenwood Springs, Colo., writes just along those lines, he says, "I have worked in Afghanistan for several years in assistance and development work, was a PCV there in the '60s and have been there in the last few years. It's my observation, having worked with a large number of Afghans and local groups, working all over the country, that the primary reason why the Taliban/insurgents are winning the war is due to the people being disgusted and dismayed over the very poor performance of their government and U.S. assistance programs in dealing with warlords and corruption. What do you think?"

ELIZABETH RUBIN: I would agree 150 percent.

JEFFREY BROWN: Yeah.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Yeah. I mean, that is the biggest disappointment. People are shocked. And people in Kabul who tend to have a little bit more patience, you know, and whose lives tend to be a little bit better -- they've all become disillusioned, and have given up hope on the international community.

Many, many young, educated people are trying to find ways to leave the country.

JEFFREY BROWN: What's the thinking there among the experts over why it has -- the performance has not so, has failed so much?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Well, one of the things is, if you remember, then in 2003, our attention was completely diverted.

Iraq has taken up brain power, military power, financial power, everything, from Afghanistan. And there's just only so much that can go around. We've never had enough troops on the ground.

Had we started in the beginning with many more troops, that would have been, secured the place much more. But we turned over the entire South to the old warlords. Those are the very people that the Taliban came in to kick out. And the people were quite happy that the Taliban came in and kicked them out -- this was back in 1996 -- because these were basically uneducated thieves and warlords.

Those people were put back in power by the U.S., because it was easier than us having to deal with it. And that started a -- that started the downward fall.

JEFFREY BROWN: Let's turn to the American soldiers who you profiled -- people were interested, and one of the big focuses of your article was the kind of cultural divide, and trying to bridge that. I think you referred to them as cultural anthropologists -- or that's part of their role.

John Mustol from San Diego, writes, "Today, 5 years into the Iraq War, and 7 years into the Afghan War, is the military training soldiers to speak local languages, and do more cross-cultural outreach?"

What did you see in those terms?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: They're definitely trying. There's no question. There was one captain -- not the one that I wrote about, but another one just down the valley -- who was learning Pashto, which is the local language.

And even if he was making mistakes, the very fact that he was putting out sentences in the language and could have a little conversation with people, made a huge impression on the locals. And people are trying to understand, you know, which families are in which valley, who's married to who -- they're really making an effort that was not made in the beginning.

JEFFREY BROWN: How do they do that? How do they physically, or logistically, do that?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Well, I mean, some of it that's information that's passed on from one unit to the next, but a lot of it has to do with who your local, you know, your cultural interpreter is, on the ground, your local Afghan. And the best way, of course, is to have many different Afghans bringing you information about the region you're working in.

Because, one of the things that happened early on, is that they would rely on one group, one tribe. And, of course, that tribe may have given them good information one time, but then the rest of the time, they were just talking about their enemy. And so, that created a lot of problems for the Americans in the first few years.

I think they've gotten much wiser to that, and they're using a lot more sources of people to give them information.

I mean, answer that, but what is this idea of "friend?" I mean, what are we trying to do in reaching out, culturally?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Well, there's two things. First, let's talk about the Afghans. The Afghans do not believe too much in permanent friendship. And, you know, there's the old joke --

JEFFREY BROWN: What do you mean by that?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Well, there's the old joke about, you can't buy an Afghan, you can rent them. And what that means is that they've grown accustomed to switching sides, all the time, you know.

JEFFREY BROWN: But, this is because of a legacy of invasion, though, right?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Exactly.

JEFFREY BROWN: A history of that.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: It's a history of colonial invasion, history of, you know, civil wars. So they've -- in order to survive, on a local level, you've got to find out who's the strongest player, and align yourself with them.

And also, make as much money from them as you can while they're there. Because most people come and go, including the Americans.

So, you know, from the very beginning there was a lot of distrust about the U.S. coming in to fix up their problems, because we'd abandoned them after they kicked out the Russians.

We picked up and left, and didn't even look, you know, for one minute, back at what was going on. And there was a raging civil war, basically the seven, you know, jihadi groups that we'd set up were fighting each other and the country was being devastated -- we did nothing.

So, there's a lot of mistrust about how long we'll be there, what our intentions are. On the American side, that's also never been clear.

If you remember, in the beginning, Bush was like, "We don't do nation-building." Rumsfeld was not going to build up the Afghan National Army or put much money into it, because that's just not what we do.

And now, everybody's realizing the two most important institutions -- the Afghan National Army, and the Afghan National Police, are really lacking in autonomy, I would say. The police are totally corrupt, nobody trusts them, and the Afghan National Army -- which is better -- can't hold a candle to either the Taliban or the U.S., because they don't have the resources. And so -- and we've kept them on training wheels, you know, for the entire time that we've been there. So, they don't have the capacity to step out on their own and take over the fight, which they could if we could -- if we would pull back a little bit.

Which, in fact, brings us to another point, which everybody's calling for NATO to send in more troops, for the Europeans to bring in more troops -- what really needs to be done is to build up that Army, so that it's a real fighting force, it has enough weapons and things like water and food and uniforms and pay, so that they can handle it. And they will be much better at it then we ever could be.

JEFFREY BROWN: Well, a number of our viewers wrote in about the stresses that our soldiers that you profiled -- and as you and I talked about in our interview, that you had great access to them, they were remarkably open about their frustrations and what life was like there.

Mary Ellen from Los Angeles, says, "You indicated in your interview that the troops you shadowed are ambivalent about the approach to their mission. Do they speak about their role, vis-à-vis the overall War on Terror at all? Do they express their views on the war in Iraq, and how all the pieces of the puzzle may or may not fit in?"

And others wrote along the same lines, are they -- did you sense -- are they looking at sort of what's in front of them, and the frustration of their mission, are they looking at a more global situation?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Well, it really -- as with everything, it depends on which soldier you're talking to. I mean, people did say to me, the soldiers said, you know, we were told we were coming to win hearts and minds -- in this particular region that I was in -- and, they said, but yet we're being, the very people we're trying to bring stuff for, are shooting at us.

And, that valley has become very hostile to the Americans, and they know that, so there's a real frustration of, "What are we doing here?" Every time we go into a village and offer to build a retaining wall or find out what their needs are, you know, the retaining wall so they won't be flooded, for their farms -- then the next day or that very day when they're leaving the village, they get shot at.

And they've come to see that a lot of the village elders are playing both sides -- again, out of survival. They will, you know, help the insurgents, they will also try to help the Americans.

So, they don't trust anybody there. Which is very demoralizing in terms of the overall mission.

In other parts of Afghanistan, even just down the valley, you'll find a different situation. About an hour's drive, the Americans built a major road along the river, that's really transformed people's lives.

In fact, people say, "Why haven't done more of this? Why are they building more military bases, instead of just changing our lives with roads and commerce and things like this?"

Over the years, many, many schools and clinics were built in places that people couldn't get to, or on dried river beds that would be flooded, because there wasn't much, you know, good, solid research done.

So, it's a very mixed performance on the U.S.'s part, and we are definitely learning from those mistakes. But it's late -- it's, you know, it's six years into the mission, and people are very frustrated.

JEFFREY BROWN: Several people wrote to us about the role of women, questions about women in Afghanistan, and then also, about your own experience. Let's start with, in Afghanistan.

John Keeland from Golden, Colo., "I was wondering if you observed any women in the village who may have some positive influence on this stalemate. It seems that their social status is so suppressed that we are stuck dealing with the men in these villages. Is there any chance of winning over the women?"

And Rebecca Swan, from Austin, "Were there any -- " well, this is more, "Were there women, any women in the company you were with, the American soldiers?"

Let's start with the -- let's start with what you saw, what you've seen in Afghanistan?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Well, it really depends. Women have had such a secondary role that there's not a lot of women who are comfortable stepping forth and taking the lead. It is really a male-dominated society, and a woman can make a pronouncement, but it's not going to hold much weight.

And also, the other thing is that many women will send their sons to fight, you know, depending -- in the valley where I was, those women were giving their sons permission to go, and you know, fight Jihad.

So, it depends on their level of education -- now, in the capital of the province where I was, I know the women were playing a very positive, and much stronger role than they ever had in the past.

You have women in parliament, you have women running businesses, you have women coming to conferences being held by the, let's say, the American State Department representative in that province.

And they are trying to have a more powerful role in what goes on in the province. But, you know, the tribal leader is the man. And he is the guy who is going to decide what goes on in the village, and the valley, and the province.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: No. The first answer is no. There were no women in combat, there are, you know, ground troops in combat. There are women -- there was woman Apache helicopter pilot, there was a woman flying the AC-130, which is basically like a flying war machine. They had a very good effect on the morale of the soldiers, I'll say that. You would find --

JEFFREY BROWN: It was the woman -- the woman flying the helicopter, right? Was one --

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Becky.

JEFFREY BROWN: -- they all enjoyed going off with her, I guess?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Definitely. When they would hear her in the sky they felt very reassured.

And there were some -- I think that there were women in the -- women medics, but -- you know, it's still pretty male-dominated, in terms of the fighting companies and the platoons. I didn't see any women there. So, yeah.

JEFFREY BROWN: Okay. Well, Ms. Swan and others, then, want to know, was your experience as a journalist different because you are a woman?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Probably. Since I'm not a man I don't know the other --

JEFFREY BROWN: Come on --

[Laughter.]

JEFFREY BROWN: Answer it.

[Laughter.]

ELIZABETH RUBIN: However, I would imagine that --

JEFFREY BROWN: Well, let's rephrase the question. No, go ahead and answer.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: I would say that they are -- you know, the soldiers, to some extent, even though I'm much older than most of them, you know, they're all like 19, 20, 21 -- they are definitely more, going to feel more protective. Which also meant that, I felt on some occasions, I didn't want to be a hindrance to them. Because I knew that they would be a little distracted to protect a woman.

JEFFREY BROWN: Right. What kind of deal or arrangement do you make when you go and spend this much time with a group of men like this?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: You know, the basic deal is, I'm just like -- I'm just like you, I'm going to be living the same way that you do, eating the same way that you do, sleeping the same way you do -- don't worry about me too much --

JEFFREY BROWN: Too much, but you're going in --

ELIZABETH RUBIN: But occasionally, when we're climbing this 6,000-foot mountain --

JEFFREY BROWN: Right.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: -- I might need you to carry something.

JEFFREY BROWN: Exactly. So, that's part of the deal, right? Or --

ELIZABETH RUBIN: That is part of the deal. There was one time, one trek that was about 24 hours out -- 48 hours out.

And on the way back, I just couldn't carry what was in my pack anymore. And I started taking it out to leave by the river. And the captain, Kearney, was like, you can't leave this stuff here, just, "I'm going to take it all." And then, the soldiers who were also about to faint and die, started giving him their ammunition to carry.

[Laughter.]

ELIZABETH RUBIN: So, you know --

JEFFREY BROWN: And he wouldn't take theirs, I'll bet.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: He did, no, he took some of them.

JEFFREY BROWN: Oh, he did?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: He had to, everybody was fainting.

JEFFREY BROWN: Oh, really?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: The hikes that these guys are making with the amount of ammunition and water supplies -- it's unbelievable. And body armor.

So, yes, I would say that, you know, there was an understanding that I'm going to be a little weaker.

JEFFREY BROWN: Right.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: And people were incredibly generous, I will say that.

JEFFREY BROWN: And then, to continue that, what about the dangers involved? You described some of the ambushes, you were there -- Rod Duell, from Summerville, S.C., writes, "As someone with a great deal of respect for anyone who has faced combat, I am compelled to ask, how scared were you on these missions, and how did you learn to deal with the chaos and carnage?"

ELIZABETH RUBIN: To some extent, the fear is more in anticipation. When the thing actually happens, when you're suddenly under fire, there's so much going on that your fear kind of stops -- mine, anyway. And I just am thinking, "Where do I put myself to be the least burden and not to get killed?" You know, and you look for someplace to hide behind and just stay there until it stops.

And, it was interesting, because we were also -- there were two other photographers on this mission, both of them men. And we sort of would look out for each other so the soldiers could do their own thing. And one of them was sort of telling me to just stay down and not move. Of course, you do end up moving anyway.

But it's -- I don't know how to say it -- you're more afraid afterwards, in a way. You know, when we looked afterwards at the trees we were hiding behind, and saw that they were filled with bullet holes, I got very -- I was very panicked by that. I couldn't believe it. Because you don't know how close you are at that moment.

JEFFREY BROWN: Right. Did you know, going in, what the potential danger was? I mean, these are ambushes, obviously, but ambushes can be expected, or at least possible.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: I didn't believe that we were going to be under -- no. I am always kind of a ridiculous optimist. I just, I thought, you know, oh, nothing's going to happen, because so many of us are going, and there's so many soldiers going, and so many helicopters, there's so many planes flying overhead, there's no way the insurgents are going to attack.

And so I -- I knew it was a possibility, but I didn't expect to come under that kind of attack, and have people killed and wounded, no. Not for that mission. The soldiers did.

JEFFREY BROWN: And I guess in this forum we can talk about this, you and I talked about it, but we didn't have it in our television interview, but you were actually pregnant while you were doing this?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: That's true, yep. And I tried not to think about that too much. And just sort of assume that if I can stay safe, the baby will stay safe, and thank God, she did. And I would call my photographer's older sister, who has had many kids, to make sure I was doing everything right. And I didn't tell the soldiers about it, because I don't want them --

JEFFREY BROWN: Oh, you didn't?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: No. I mean, that just would have been -- I don't even know --

JEFFREY BROWN: Right.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: -- if they could have handled my going out with them.

JEFFREY BROWN: Right.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: In that situation.

JEFFREY BROWN: Right.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: I told them at the end. And one of the -- I told the captain, and --

JEFFREY BROWN: And what did he say?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: I can't say it on air.

[Laughter.]

ELIZABETH RUBIN: But he said, "You are blank crazy."

JEFFREY BROWN: All right, well, we should assure all the -- everyone listening, it all worked out and you have a fine little baby girl, right?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Yes, that's right.

JEFFREY BROWN: Let me ask you one last thing here, just to end, sort of where we began, or the larger picture that you had told me, and in our interview, that you went in originally because there were questions from the Karzai government about civilians being killed and injured in a lot of these.

Where does it stand now, in terms of the mission -- Howard Balfour from Park Forest, Illinois, for example, says, "What is the mission of our troops now? Does the Karzai government want us there?" Where do things stand in terms of our relationship with the government in Afghanistan?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: The Karzai government absolutely wants us there, they don't want us to leave. I mean, they couldn't -- Karzai wouldn't last, practically a week if we left.

JEFFREY BROWN: Really?

ELIZABETH RUBIN: No. The government would be under -- it's not just from the, you know, Taliban, in quotes, whoever they are -- but from many different groups.

So, the first answer is, they want us there. The second answer is, in terms of the civilian casualties, there have been a lot of efforts made by NATO, to minimize the casualties, because they understand that, you know, you're fighting a counterinsurgency, the No. 1 priority is to win over the civilians. You can't do that if you're killing them.

JEFFREY BROWN: Right.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: And so, they're taking a lot more precautions, and in some of the provinces, the Governor has said, "You can not drop a single bomb from the air without calling me first." And that has worked, I mean, in Host Province is one of them. And, "You can't search a single house, or do a nighttime raid without my involvement."

And, that's not happening where I was. But, in this province that is his -- he laid down the gauntlet.

And they're abiding by it, and it's actually making a big improvement. Because, the locals know what's going on in every village, and you can't win this war without including the locals, and having them, in some way, lead.

JEFFREY BROWN: All right, well, we'll end it there.

Let me thank, first, all the viewers who wrote in, a lot of interesting observations and questions.

And thank you, once again, Elizabeth Rubin, for talking to us.

ELIZABETH RUBIN: Thank you very much.