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REGION: Europe
TOPIC: Politics
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INSIDER FORUM STEP INTO THE DISCUSSION
TRANSCRIPT
Originally Aired: March 5, 2008
Insider Forum

Experts Answered Your Questions on Russia's Politics

On March 2, Russians headed to the polls and overwhelmingly elected Dmitri Medvedev, the candidate endorsed by current Russian president Vladimir Putin, as the new president. Putin stands to become prime minister, a position of significant power. Two experts on Russian politics answered your questions.
Russian celebrate elections; Credit: AP
 
The Knight Foundation
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RAY SUAREZ: Welcome to this week's Insider Forum. I'm Ray Suarez.

On Sunday, Russian citizens went to the polls and overwhelmingly voted Dmitry Medvedev as the new President of Russia. Medvedev is the handpicked successor to outgoing President Vladimir Putin. Putin, Medvedev has said, would become prime minister in his government, a position of significant power.

Last week, the NewsHour's special correspondent Simon Marks filed a report from Moscow on the election, and we invited you to submit questions. Here to answer those questions and others are two guests:

Sarah Mendelson is the Director of the Human Rights and Security Initiative at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. She's also a senior fellow with the Russia and Eurasia Program.

Also joining us, Cliff Kupchan. He's Director of Europa and Eurasia at the Eurasia Group, an international consulting firm. He's also the former Vice President and Senior Fellow of the Nixon Center, where he focused on the Russian energy sector and Russian politics.

Welcome to you both.

Well, let's take a look at the elections. Were they up to international standard? Did they yield a result that shows that there was a real election? Mr. Kupchan?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: Up to international standards? No. Mr. Medvedev had strong control of the state of "apparatchik" during the election, didn't even really run an election campaign, gave a number of speeches, international monitors were generally not allowed. By and large, this is not what we in the West would call a real election. No.

RAY SUAREZ: Sarah Mendelson?

SARAH MENDELSON: I totally agree. I mean, I think what happened on Sunday was the combination of many months of sort of behind-the-scenes negotiations and decision-making that were totally opaque.

And it really marks a very sad moment to my mind to post-Soviet Union history. I've observed most of the elections that have occurred over the last 15 years, and I was an advisor to the OSCE [Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe] in the last round, and the ability of the Russian authorities to essentially push back on what is a standard norm, and certainly in Europe, on election monitoring was really quite striking.

RAY SUAREZ: So is Russia a functioning democracy?

SARAH MENDELSON: No. No, it's not a functioning democracy. It is an authoritarian system that does not have transparent rules of the game. And it makes it very difficult for opposition, and any critical-minded thinking people, whether they're in politics or in media, to get their word out.

RAY SUAREZ: So, Cliff Kupchan, what do you have in Medvedev, then, the president-elect? Do you have simply just another apparatchik who's going to do the bidding of his political mentor? Or perhaps someone who might have a different view of what the office is and how it's to be used?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: So far, you have an enigma. Mr. Medvedev gave roughly half a dozen speeches in which he enunciated very liberal policies, from an attack on corruption, to emphasis on the environment, to reducing the state's role in the economies, to a more conciliatory foreign policy.

For now, Mr. Putin is going to be the senior partner, in dual power, in dual rule in Russia. For now, we're not going to know what Mr. Medvedev's real views are. I think over the long term, if Mr. Putin decides after two years or so to just go home, then we may see a more liberal Mr. Medvedev emerge. But it's going to be a long time from here to there.

RAY SUAREZ: Sarah Mendelson, do we know yet? Are all the enabling votes and documents already in existence that would make Vladimir Putin prime minister?

SARAH MENDELSON: Mr. Putin will be appointed prime minister by Medvedev. So that is essentially a sleight-of-hand that will happen automatically.

The issue is, to what extent does Putin continue to play a dominant role in Russian politics? There's several metrics that we can use to see whether or not Medvedev is, in fact, a liberal. And we're going to be watching very closely.

At the moment, there's a blacklist for certain journalists and activists and businesspeople coming into Russia. Does that continue? Is there a serious investigation of murders that have happened? Is there an end of impunity to law enforcement? Do non-governmental organizations continue to be harassed? Or is there more space and less pressure by the authorities on them?

All of those things, we'll be watching for.

Cliff Kupchan
Cliff Kupchan
Eurasia Group
The presidency has been, by tradition and by constitution, by the way it was written, to be the sort of supreme office. Now, given Mr. Putin's really overwhelming popularity, in my view, in Russia, he could easily change that.

Putin's role as prime minister


RAY SUAREZ: Nicole writes from St. Louis: "I've heard that Putin will likely be prime minister. What roles do the president and the prime minister play in Russia? And how do the roles differ and overlap? Are there term limits? May Putin run for president after Medvedev's term expires?"

Cliff Kupchan?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: The president is the Commander-in-Chief. After that, pretty much everything is up for grabs. It can be changed, without changing the constitution, in that Mr. Putin could gain more power without passing a constitutional amendment.

So far, Mr. Yeltsin and Mr. Putin have reigned supreme. The presidency has been, by tradition and by constitution, by the way it was written, to be the sort of supreme office. Now, given Mr. Putin's really overwhelming popularity, in my view, in Russia, he could easily change that. He could run again in the year 2012, or he could even run sooner if Mr. Medvedev decides to step down.

So it's fluid, and in reality, it's not a legally-based relationship. It's something the two are going to work out together, how they work together, and who does what.

RAY SUAREZ: Have any previous prime ministers invested the office with much clout?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: The prime minister, in general, has been -- has served at pleasure and for as long as the president wants him to. It's really not been a terribly strong position. In fact, it's been more of a lightning rod -- if inflation goes wrong, if terrorism goes wrong, whatever -- the prime minister gets blamed.

Now, that's a risk Mr. Putin might take. He might not be able to change that, but I think he will. The short answer to the question is no. No prime minister has really had a lot of power.

RAY SUAREZ: Anna writes from Colorado: "Where did Medvedev come from? How long have he and Putin known each other?"

Sarah Mendelson?

SARAH MENDELSON: That's a very interesting question. Well, in one sense, Medvedev came from the Putin administration. I mean, I think it's very important when we are looking at the true tea leaves, and trying to figure out, "Where will Medvedev go? And what kind of a leader will he be?" He was a key part of an administration that, over the last eight years, has steadily shrunk public political space in Russia.

Now, before that, he is a longtime colleague -- mentee, if you will -- of Putin. He comes from -- he was born in a region of Leningrad called Kupchino, which I don't know if Cliff's family is from there, but the name certainly is the same.

RAY SUAREZ: Cliff Kupchan? Is your family from there?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: My family is from the Ukraine. The name is very close. I don't think we're from there.

RAY SUAREZ: Fred writes, from Garden Grove, Calif.: "Why is the U.S. government skeptical of everything that Putin does?"

Cliff, why don't you take that?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: Mr. Putin has a brass-knuckles reputation in this town, from using, at times, energy as a tool of foreign policy, which I think they're doing now with Ukraine. I think that's very clear. Cutting gas 50 percent for, I think, political goals. They've backed out of arms control treaties. They're developing new weapons. They're increasingly authoritarian. Corruption is widely regarded as unchecked. The Litvinenko affair, where a former security service officer was murdered in London, and the Russians have stonewalled that investigation.

He is a -- he's got a bad rap here. Now, in my own view, he's done some good, a bit of good, for the average Russian citizen. But that's a different story. In Washington, he has not got a good reputation.

RAY SUAREZ: But has -- Sarah Mendelson -- the United States treated Russia in a way that's gotten some of that reaction that Cliff just gave us a litany of?

SARAH MENDELSON: Well, yes and no. I mean, quite honestly, the Putin administration and Putin himself has run a very intense anti-American campaign, including sort of veiled references to the United States as similar to the Third Reich; in major foreign policies circles, saying that the United States is advancing a very dangerous foreign policy.

And, by and large, there's been a very muted response by the Bush administration. But I think there's actually more of a split, perhaps, in the U.S. than we've discussed. The business community has been quite keen on Vladimir Putin, and viewing a lot of what Putin has done as positive.

I would say that if you do look at the life of the average Russian, beyond the fact that there is more money in that person's pocketbook, which is obviously a good thing, major institutions -- like health, police, army, education -- have actually not been reformed, and things have gotten much worse under President Putin.

RAY SUAREZ: I guess I was really asking about the world that came out of the Yeltsin years, when a Russia that had been through years of some tumult began to be treated as a secondary power by the United States, and whether Putin, during his early years as president, was doing some of things he was doing just to push back against that notion that Russia had almost departed from a central place in the world's stage.

SARAH MENDELSON: Well, in some ways, Russia was punching way above its weight. I mean, the fact that Russia is in the G8 and hosted the G8 meeting in 2006, I think, is a policy decision that was made during the Yeltsin years to bring Russia closer to the Euro-Atlantic community, but it is increasingly puzzling to a lot of people.

The moment that you're speaking of, in a lot of ways, has to do with Kosovo in 1999, and I think the Russian elite feeling that the U.S. and NATO, in particular, made some decisions and then expanded NATO, of course, to include Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. And that very much enraged the Russian government. But, of course, these are independent states.

Sarah Mendelson
Sarah Mendelson
CSIS
I suspect that, you know, there's no reason to think that Medvedev is, given the fact that he's been the mentee of Putin's, that much different from these young people. These are the Putin generation.

Energy as a political tool


RAY SUAREZ: Adam Bosco writes, from Washington, D.C.: "In light of the rapid growth of Gazprom, the major producer and distributor of natural gas, and the role of energy in regional conflicts involving Russia, how will Medvedev's election change the course of Russian energy policy?"

Sarah Mendelson alluded to Russia's use of energy as a political tool. Cliff Kupchan, any change on the horizon?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: I think that there is a consensus among the Russian elite right now around a large state role in economy, certainly the Gazprom and sort of policy. Medvedev, you know, I've only had one discussion with him of any substance, and he does seem different. He's younger. He's a different generation. He doesn't seem to have a vitriolic view that of the United States that Putin does.

But he's not going to be able to, even if he wants to, break that consensus about the role of Gazprom, and the role of Gazprom as an input into our foreign policy. I don't think there's going to be change for a good long time.

RAY SUAREZ: Sarah Mendelson, let's talk a little bit more about that generational difference. If Medvedev came to adulthood during a time when the Soviet Union was starting to really unravel, and lived through the years of chaos that followed, and now has come to power in this resurgent time, how is his worldview different from a Putin, who was really part of the apparatus and came to adulthood during, perhaps, the last chapter of the USSR's real power, as a global power?

SARAH MENDELSON: Well, I'll answer that question, relying on some survey data that I've gathered, along with colleagues. We did a survey in 2005 and 2007 of young Russians, and they're a little bit younger than Medvedev, but what's really striking is how -- well, you note the sort of tumult of the 1990s.

I think, psychologically, that had a very big impact on these young people. And Putin actually presents an image that is very satisfying to a lot of people. It's a kind of restoration and glorification of a lot of Soviet myths. There's a lot of Soviet nostalgia that both Putin encourages that the young people, I think, embrace.

And I suspect that, you know, there's no reason to think that Medvedev is, given the fact that he's been the mentee of Putin's, that much different from these young people. These are the Putin generation.

Rather than being the fall of the Berlin Wall generation, or, you know, sort of a generation that embraces international human rights norms and peace and justice, these are young people who think that Stalin did more good than bad and that agree overwhelmingly the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century, something that Putin has advanced that idea.

RAY SUAREZ: Cliff Kupchan, now that the republics have gone their own way, and a lot of the other nationalities that made up the USSR are living in foreign countries, does Russian chauvinism come back into view in a way that was not possible when the USSR was trying to at least pay lip service to the idea of a multicultural, multiethnic state?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: Russian chauvinism -- Russian nationalism, I think I would put it, is a concern. The -- in my view, the Russians have not essentially come to terms with the independence of many countries, in particular, Ukraine and Georgia.

We see the Ukraine conflict breaking loose again as we speak. The relationship with Georgia -- well, I don't think the Russians will recognize the separatist territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent. I do think that they will beef up relations with those two territories; i.e., undermine the sovereignty and independence of Georgia.

So these are going to be ongoing concerns, for the rest of the Bush administration and for the next U.S. administration, to insist that Russia does respect the territorial integrity of its neighbors.

RAY SUAREZ: And when it comes to those kind of conflicts, does $103-a-barrel oil make Russia a more self-confident character when trying to push some of these regional buttons?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: I mean, look, $103-a-barrel oil does a lot to any country, whether it's Russia, or whether it's Iran, or whether it's Chavez. Unfortunately, $103-a-barrel oil has empowered a lot of the bad guys, in our view.

So certainly, when I go to Moscow now, friends of mine, academics I've known for 25 years, tell me that there is more confidence among the Russian diplomatic and business elite than at any time since 1975. That is going to keep Russian foreign policy aggressive, on steroids, shall we say. It's going to be one very important factor.

But it's a factor on top of deeply-held beliefs about the Slavic community, about the region, and it's going to be something that's going play out slowly and in a very bumpy way. This is still a regional great power that is very difficult to boss around, especially in our backyard.

Cliff Kupchan
Cliff Kupchan
Eurasia Group
I want to boil this down to what affects the average American -- of an issue that touches them more deeply than an Iran going nuclear. Russia has connections in Iran that we don't. Russia has influence.

U.S. dependency on Russia


RAY SUAREZ: Sarah Mendelson, doesn't the United States depend heavily now, given the nature of various world conflicts, on a Russia it can do business with?

SARAH MENDELSON: Yes. Although, I think the U.S. also depends on a whole series of values that it shares with allies and partners around the world. And what I'm concerned about is that the Russian government, to a certain extent, along with China, are advancing a very sort of 19th century conception of the state.

They're really challenging the -- what we assumed was an attitude towards human rights and international law. They're advancing a kind of hyper-sovereign approach to the state. And while we need Russia for certain conflicts around the world, we also -- we want to make sure that Russia is both part of the Euro-Atlantic community, but is not challenging it in ways that makes the Euro-Atlantic community weaker.

And I think the concern has been over the last couple of years that that has happened.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, give us an example. Where are some of the tension points where the United States must have Russia as a partner in areas of common concern, and risks letting its own values down in order to indulge in --

SARAH MENDELSON: Sure.

RAY SUAREZ: -- in realpolitik?

SARAH MENDELSON: Well, I think there are two great examples. One is what we just saw on Sunday. This was not an election. It didn't conform with any international election standards. And yet, leaders around the world, including in the Bush administration, are in, in a sense, in a position where they call and they congratulate Medvedev.

And in some ways -- and they did that, also, in December, during the Parliamentary "elections" -- and I say that with quotation marks around the elections. That enabled Putin essentially to do what he did over the last couple of months, and it says to them that you can basically stage this kind of transition, and there's no real consequence.

A more probably, I think, a tragic example has to do with Darfur, and in the Security Council, and both Russia and China were involved in essentially delaying a robust international response to what was going on in Darfur.

CLIFF KUPCHAN: Ray, could I jump in briefly on that?

RAY SUAREZ: Sure, please.

CLIFF KUPCHAN: It seems to me that Iran is the key tradeoff, if we really want to see where the rubber hits the road on this issue. The Russians are at the center of the Iranian nuclear crisis.

I can't think -- I want to boil this down to what affects the average American -- of an issue that touches them more deeply than an Iran going nuclear. Russia has connections in Iran that we don't. Russia has influence. I mean, Putin just met with Ayatollah [Ali Khamenei], the supreme leader. No American could even get close to him.

We do need Russia to bail us out of some of the -- of some of our deepest conflicts. Now, that doesn't mean to cave on the democracy issue. Democracy does matter. Democracies don't go to war with each other. They're more predictable. We Americans, we support democracy.

I would like to add, though, that Russia is now 17 years old. Russia is a teenager. It comes out of a very authoritarian past. Serving in the Clinton administration, I can say that I think we all misjudged how quickly it was possible that Russia would evolve into a democracy.

Now, that doesn't mean that things look good. Russia's headed in the wrong direction. But it means: A, we need Russia on key issues, like Iran; and B, you know, I agree with Sarah that things are going well, but we've just got to show some patience here.

RAY SUAREZ: If you look at the timelines, Sarah Mendelson, since the fall of the Berlin Wall, was there a turning point where it could have been otherwise, where there was a missed opportunity or a misunderstanding of the pivotal nature of an event, that leads us to the Russia we have today instead of one that could have been different?

SARAH MENDELSON: Ray, how long do you have? There are many points -- I think three that immediately come to mind, and one sort of overarching one.

One point is '93, when actually Yeltsin used force against the White House, which I think was a time when not a lot of us recognized that this was an assault on a Democratic institution, the Parliament, but it also -- it lent -- it was a quality that the Clinton administration essentially ignored, and then, of course, Yeltsin followed up with a first war in Chechnya.

The second is the election of Yeltsin in '96, where in January of '96 he had, like, two to three percent popularity. And by June-July '96, he was president again, to great relief by the West. I think President Clinton would have worked on his campaign team, if he'd been allowed.

And then, I think the last moment, that sort of embrace of Yeltsin, despite the fact that he was so unpopular, began a pattern of very -- well, it continued a pattern of very personalized relationships with -- between the presidents. And it ignored the population.

And I think if there's one thing that I would like to see done differently, it's not only a new president in Russia -- but we're going to have obviously a new president in the United States -- I would like to see the next administration, whoever it is, reaching out and thinking much more about Russians beyond the Kremlin.

I want to hear and pay attention to the voices of Russians. Not just the leadership and I think there's been far too much of that.

Sarah Mendelson
Sarah Mendelson
CSIS
My fear is that we need a Russian government that is responsive to the needs of the Russian population, and we have not seen that yet. And the kind of corruption that plagues Russia today is very hard to combat.

Missed opportunities


RAY SUAREZ: Cliff Kupchan, do you agree that those Clinton years, when Yeltsin was in office, were times of missed opportunities and errors in decision-making in Washington?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: I think that I agree largely with what Sarah has said. I think we had opportunities we didn't grasp. I'm not sure -- and here, I think I might slightly differ with my friend -- I'm not sure it would have made any difference. I mean, my own view is that, you know, still-young Russia is on its way of finding itself.

I think that where Putin is leading Russia, international relations is necessarily a bad thing, aside from the region where they've been really assertive. I think Russia is headed towards becoming a nonaligned, independent power, like China on the one hand or India on the other hand.

And I think that's Russia's natural place in the world order. So I don't think that we blew anything that really would have made a difference in the long term. I think Russia -- Russians are going to make decisions about Russia, and that's what we're going to -- that's what we're seeing.

SARAH MENDELSON: But let -- Ray, may I just --

RAY SUAREZ: Sure, please.

SARAH MENDELSON: -- make one comment? The problem is that we were so wedded to a specific outcome, and that outcome was seeing Russia as a democracy, that we ignored flaws in the process. And Russians are not stupid. They recognized that we were, in some ways, applauding a kind of faux-democracy as a democracy, and I think that cost us a lot of credibility.

And it turned a lot of Russians off to what are very fundamental principles and values that we were hoping that they would embrace.

RAY SUAREZ: In the next couple of years, will we see a state that not only has neon-lit squares, swanky nightclubs, and posh shopping districts, but also a place where the life expectancy is not dropping, where some of the most intensely polluted patches on the planet are going to get cleaned up, where Russia -- away from Moscow -- will become more like rebuilding places in Eastern Europe and less like some of the hellholes that they are?

CLIFF KUPCHAN: Ray, my concern is that we're -- Russia is not on that trajectory right now. And given that Mr. Putin is going to still be running the place, I don't see any near-term prospect for that. My tagline, having met the guy several times, is that Mr. Putin is a war of intellect versus instinct.

He's got a Grade A intellect, but his instinct is, again, those of a Soviet espionage agent. And in order to get the kind of Russia that you're talking about, you've got to trust markets, atrophy, disorder. You've got to trust democracy. And I don't think this elite does.

SARAH MENDELSON: But I heard Ray describing a Moscow that is very rich, and then regions that are poor --

RAY SUAREZ: Right.

SARAH MENDELSON: -- unreformed, and not rebuilt. And I do think that that is a huge concern. Stratification, I mean, the huge difference between the rich and the poor has intensified.

RAY SUAREZ: And leaving behind some of those same people who value the stability and order that Putin has brought in, even though he hasn't, in many cases, made them richer or healthier or safer.

SARAH MENDELSON: Well, this health issue is really -- it's going to dog every part of the government. And it may -- we may be at a point where it's so difficult that only the equivalent of a kind of Manhattan Project for health in Russia is going to turn things around.

The efforts today have been marginal. And it's not just that people are dying young. It's that people have not been having enough babies. And the babies that are born are stunted, or there are various health problems.

Plus, of course, there's tobacco and alcohol use that is not like what we see elsewhere in the industrialized world. So it's really tragic, and I think to the extent that a lot of us in the West can engage on -- with Russians on issues that Russians care about, I think health does provide some opportunity.

RAY SUAREZ: So doesn't that provide, Cliff Kupchan, a sort of "what's wrong with this picture" moment? You've got the Russian head of government at a G8 meeting, and you've got third world style health numbers.

CLIFF KUPCHAN: It does. And Mr. Putin, in enumerating his frustrations, which is kind of a codeword for failure in my view, has mentioned his inability to tackle demography and corruption. So I think he knows what we know, that this has not worked.

I would add, though, Ray, that having visited 41 -- almost half -- of the regions, which involves pretty scary flying at times, the wealth is spreading. If you go to the major regional centers now, it doesn't look like Moscow, but there's a noticeable improvement over the first time I was there in, you know, certainly in the '80s compared to the '90s.

But you do get a trickledown. Yekaterinburg, Samara, definite signs of modernity more like the West.

RAY SUAREZ: And you were just going to say, Sarah?

SARAH MENDELSON: Well, my concern is the north caucuses, that region of Southern Russia where, of course, there were two wars in Chechnya, but there's continued violence every single day, exploded bombs.

And unemployment rates that are three times the rest of the country, at least. That's a conservative estimate. Social services that are not being met. And when we asked in a survey of young men in the north caucuses did they care whether it was a Muslim state, a Muslim charity, the U.N., who was delivering social services, it's basically whoever gets there first.

My fear is that we need a Russian government that is responsive to the needs of the Russian population, and we have not seen that yet. And the kind of corruption that plagues Russia today is very hard to combat without an independent investigative journalism tradition.

It's just, in the modern era, you need independent journalism and you need independent courts, and Russia has neither of those at the moment to combat this.

RAY SUAREZ: That's all the time we have for this week's Insider Forum. I want to thank both of our guests, Sarah Mendelson of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and Cliff Kupchan of the Eurasia Group.

And I want to thank all of our viewers who submitted questions to this week's panel. We can't get to all of them, but we hope that we've answered many of them in our conversation. Until next time, I'm Ray Suarez.

ONLINE NEWSHOUR LINKS

February 29, 2008
Election Marks Uncertain Milepost in Russian Democracy


July 19, 2007
Russia-Britain Relations Sour After Expulsion of Diplomats


June 15, 2007
Russian Official Discusses U.S.-Russian Relations




NEWSHOUR EXTRA LINKS

February 28, 2008
Disputin' Putin? Russia's Tightly Controlled Presidential Election




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Center for Strategic and International Studies
Eurasia Group


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