DIANE SAWYER & CHARLES GIBSON

October 29, 1999
		Diane Sawyer and Charles Gibson, co-anchors on ABC's "Good Morning America," recently spoke with media correspondent Terence Smith about the successful morning news formula. The following are extended excerpts from the interview.

Return to the morning news index Sept. 8, 1999: The success of ESPN July 29, 1999: The impact of falling ratings July 7, 1999: Vying for cable news viewers June 1, 1999: Quality in local news Jan. 13, 1999: The growth of TV news magazines NewsHour coverage of the media     The Early Show Good Morning America The Today Show	TERENCE SMITH: What makes the morning different in terms of a news show? DIANE SAWYER: Different from "Today" or -- TERENCE SMITH: Other parts of the day. DIANE SAWYER: It's a conversation, and it's a conversation that you're having with people who are distracted, and people who are paying attention, and people who are sleepy, and people who really are curious and want to know things. So in that sense it's personal. TERENCE SMITH: And they, evidently, establish a very personal relationship with a person who comes into their kitchen or their bedroom. DIANE SAWYER: Oh, I think so. I mean, when you're brushing your teeth at home and someone's talking to you, it's hard not to remember that they're not standing outside your shower for one thing. And then people write you wonderful, but very personal things. They write you in a different way than they do -- I don't know what your experience is -- on "20/20" for instance. CHARLES GIBSON: It's the most informal time of day. The beds aren't made. The dishes aren't done. Kids are running around like banshees, and then there we are, asking you to bring us into your home when you wouldn't have your best friends into the home at that hour of the day. So it is a very personal connection. And we spend 95 percent of our time concentrating on the content of the broadcast. What is counter-intuitive to me is that 95 percent of the reaction to the show is to us as individuals, and I think that is because of the time of day. TERENCE SMITH: Before you -- what can you accomplish for a news show in the morning, in terms either of time or of live television, or of interviews, that you can't in other parts of the day? CHARLES GIBSON: We're the first news for about an eight-hour period. People keep up now more than they used to on what's going on during the day. The old days when we sat down with Frank Reynolds or Walter Cronkite or Huntley/Brinkley at 6:30, and that was our first exposure, those are gone. But basically, people went to bed at 10 o'clock, and they're waking up and we're the first news. So I think, basically, they want to know that Cleveland didn't blow up overnight, that essentially your rice bowl is safe, and then we give you sort of the daily rundown of news, of what you need to know for the day. And so I think from that standpoint -- also people are concentrated on things that they're not during other times. They really want to know what their weather is in their local town, and whether they're running late, and all those kinds of things. TERENCE SMITH: Right. DIANE SAWYER: You know, what I like is that it can be as eclectic and high and low as your own curiosity in the morning, that it doesn't have to have the weight of the world. You can do that and you can also deal with serious issues. And people expect it to be that kind of diversity in the morning. So all the little things that you were curious about, and all the little complaints you want to make about the world, can all be fit in someplace. TERENCE SMITH: Can all hang out. DIANE SAWYER: Yeah.
	Gold mine or land mine?
	TERENCE SMITH: For years, of course, the networks really competed in the evening. The evening news was everything for the network news divisions. Now, it seems the emphasis, the money they're spending on new studios, the energy is going into the morning. Why? DIANE SAWYER: Well, I think the evening news is still part of everything, if not everything. I think that the fact that you're hearing so much more about the morning is the constellation of factors right now. But it's also true that your flagship broadcast is Peter Jennings, and your identity is how he decides your front page looks that night, and it permeates the whole organization. And in that sense, we are a critical part of the cycle, and we add to the identity. But I think that the evening news still sets the identity. TERENCE SMITH: But, Charlie, isn't it also intensely competitive now, maybe even more than the years that you have done it? It seems to -- after all, this show has been up and it has been down. CHARLES GIBSON: Yes. There's no question that when they looked around and discovered that one network had sort of captured the mornings for a period of time, there was a very different revenue stream than there had been when we were in a superior position, and -- DIANE SAWYER: Revenue stream. CHARLES GIBSON: Well, it means they were getting less money than they were when the show was doing well. And so that caught their attention. Also there are practical factors. Americans are getting up earlier. We started six o'clock newscast about 20 years ago, 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. Nobody was watching. Couldn't get advertisers. Now it's a land mine for local stations from six o'clock to seven o'clock. People are getting up earlier. DIANE SAWYER: Gold mine. CHARLES GIBSON: Gold mine. And -- DIANE SAWYER: That's why I'm here. CHARLES GIBSON: And I think -- what did I say? DIANE SAWYER: Land mine. CHARLES GIBSON: Land mine. No, gold mine. TERENCE SMITH: It may be that also. CHARLES GIBSON: It may be that too. So there's a lot of money to be made in the mornings, and I think that factor is very real for the networks.
	A battle for second place
	TERENCE SMITH: This is, in essence -- we went over and talked to the folks at CBS, who are gearing up now to make a major effort on their part after years and years of being an also-ran. They describe it as a battle for second place. That means a battle with you. Is it? DIANE SAWYER: You know, I suppose, objectively, we are all out to divide up the pie in some way. But this is the absolute truth: because it is a conversation that we have to have in the morning, we are forever about are we doing what we think is right? Are we doing well what we set out to do? Are we getting in all the things that we want to tell you every morning? And it's not as if we're vying in the way -- and I've been in competition in the evening, I know what that's like -- we're not vying in the same way for the same stories. We're vying to be the best version of ourself. And that's the truth. That's what the competition feels like from here. TERENCE SMITH: I don't doubt that for a minute, but the fact is, both of you were brought back -- invited back from other times of the day and other activities, to this show. That's emphasis. CHARLES GIBSON: The pitch that was made to us is: we want to make the strongest statement we can that we believe in the franchise of "Good Morning America" and that we're not going to let it wither. We want to say to the audience, and we want to say to the local stations that we believe in this program, that our resources are behind it, and that we are committed to it. And after that, I can tell you there has been de minimis conversation about ratings, really has been almost none. And once we came back and said, "OK, we'll do it," then essentially, they had made the statement they wanted to make, and at that point they said, "Do the best program that you can." TERENCE SMITH: The notion at the other networks is that you're both here to stay. [Laughter.] TERENCE SMITH: Are you? DIANE SAWYER: I don't know what they're smoking, but what would we have to be smoking? TERENCE SMITH: Are you? DIANE SAWYER: Again, the only reason we avoid talking about the deadline is because then it just means you've set a new deadline of some other kind. We do not talk about it. We said we'd stay till May. We have not addressed what happens after that. Period. And this is what happened last time too. It's not that we're trying to slide our way into staying or that we're insinuating our way into staying without saying it. It's that we're not thinking that way. We're still thinking about what we said in the beginning we came to do and be part of, and there's still a lot to be done. And that's the only way we can think. CHARLES GIBSON: I'm curious -- TERENCE SMITH: And when you say May, you're talking about? DIANE SAWYER: May of next year. TERENCE SMITH: Next May? DIANE SAWYER: Yes. CHARLES GIBSON: I'm curious. When people at the other network said the impression is -- their impression is that we're here to stay, did they say that with fear in their voices, or did they say it with glee? [Laughter.]
	A $600 million prize
	TERENCE SMITH: At the formidable competition. But I think the notion was -- the notion behind the statement is what I'm getting at, which is this is suddenly a huge financial deal for network news divisions that are in trouble at other times of the day, and that share in the morning a common pool of some $600 million in revenues, where a single rating point can be $70 million difference in revenues. You're looking surprised. CHARLES GIBSON: Those figures are absolutely news to me. I don't know if they're correct or wrong. I have no idea. DIANE SAWYER: I have never heard that figure either. TERENCE SMITH: Are you feeling underpaid? DIANE SAWYER: Well, since we're not being paid at all, yes. CHARLES GIBSON: Yeah. They came to us and said, "Would you do us a favor?" And we said, "Yeah." What were those numbers again? It's a $600 million prize? TERENCE SMITH: The pool of revenues for the three network morning news shows is $600 million. CHARLES GIBSON: Gross. TERENCE SMITH: Gross. DIANE SAWYER: We can afford more than bagels in the green room. TERENCE SMITH: If a show gets one -- improves by one rating -- CHARLES GIBSON: It's a marginal point. TERENCE SMITH: One point, it equals an additional $70 million in revenues. That's my point. This, for network news divisions that are under stress from a variety of cost cutting and other pressures, and are losing audience in other parts of the day, they are gaining audience here, and they see a chance to make big money. CHARLES GIBSON: We are really insulated from those figures. And to be honest with you, I'm sort of sorry you've told me those figures. Seriously. Because if you begin to think about that, then it preys on your mind, and you can't begin to think, "If we do this story, will it bump ratings X percent? If we avoid that, will we keep people from running away from us?" You really have to say, "What's the broadcast we ought to be doing?" And try to do it. And if you let those numbers get into your head, it can become insidious.
	It's really fun
	TERENCE SMITH: This street-side studio, tell me about it. What does it offer you? What do you do with it? Is it fun? DIANE SAWYER: It's really fun. It's really fun. It's automatic energy. It's orange juice. It's a B-12 shot, to have people wandering in off the street, and they look up, and there you are, and maybe Garth Brooks is singing or a camel is -- had too much fiber. Anything can be happening in the morning when they're going by, and it's wonderful to have the real -- it's not canned, what you're seeing downstairs. These are people who can wander by. They didn't just come to see us, a lot of them. They wandered by and happened to see us. So I love the fact that there's still something authentic and real going on. TERENCE SMITH: Are you both now struck by the fact that the three shows are in a sense going to these studios, that they are becoming visually clones of one another, with street-side studios, two primary anchors, a certain mix of news and entertainment? I wonder, is there nothing new in the morning? CHARLES GIBSON: But, Terry, they were largely similar a long time ago. There's no question "The Today Show" started it more than 40 years ago. And then "Good Morning America" came along and reinvented morning television, and got a period of ascendancy. And we were all doing essentially the same broadcast. When we came to ascendancy, "The Today Show" modified to copy us. TERENCE SMITH: And when you say "reinvented," describe what you mean. CHARLES GIBSON: Well, it was a little bit more informal, it was a little bit more chatty. It was more of a pastiche than it had been before. Dave Garroway and John Chancellor did it as a much serious broadcast. I think "Good Morning America," David Hartman lightened it up a little bit, without for a minute forgetting that it was primarily a news and information broadcast. But they were very similar then. And then "The Today Show" went to this window, and it had an effect. It lent energy to the broadcast, and that is a critical part of television, that people be energized. And this studio, I think, really takes it -- a quantum leap forward. It's not simply imitative. I mean, we're projected right out in the middle of what I think is -- not arguably -- is the most famous intersection in America. DIANE SAWYER: And don't you think that habit and a little bit of the predictable is your friend in the morning? Because you're gaging your morning by when the news comes on and when the weather comes on, and how much time do you have. And it really is a nice accompaniment to your morning. And every time somebody tries to go in and reinvent what we do, it always ends up being more about technology and sets, and flash and dash, forgetting the main thing, which is, what we do at our best is still interesting people saying interesting, important things with a little bit of fun and some heart. TERENCE SMITH: How different is this from what you did with Charles Kuralt how many years ago at CBS? DIANE SAWYER: Oh, this is really different, because -- what I did after Charles Kuralt with Bill Curtis is much more similar -- but Charles and I were basically taking what was on the evening news and redoing it and rewriting it and crafting little things. And he would do his funny little vignettes in the morning. It was only an hour broadcast. But it was not about the spontaneous. It was not about the first thing that comes in your head in the morning at all. TERENCE SMITH: And, Charlie, has it changed over the years that you've done it? CHARLES GIBSON: Sure. It is a much more spontaneous broadcast. It is off-script. It's basically what's going through your head at the moment, and what interests you, what do you find intellectually intriguing in the morning. And I think it's pushing that way, and it's also pushing toward a little bit more high energy, and that's the reason for these changes in sets.
	Looking for a story to tell
	TERENCE SMITH: It's also going to launch, inevitably, a booking war for the good guests, the most interesting and attractive guests of a given morning or week. Steve Friedman says he's prepared to deal, the executive producer of the new CBS show. He's prepared to deal. He makes no bones about it. He's prepared to have -- make multiple bookings, bring on two stars in a movie, make all kinds of deals. Makes no bones about it. Jeff Zucker says he won't deal, won't make any promises. What about GMA? CHARLES GIBSON: Well, I'm surprised Steve would say that, because I think generally there is a move away from talking to people simply about "What intrigued you about making this movie?" And "What was it like working with Burt Lancaster?" That's sort of gone now. And you're looking for people really who have stories to tell, so I don't know how much Steve is going to have to deal. If he's giving five and six parts to a movie where he's talking to the gaffer on the movie or the assistant director or the prop guy, then I think he's probably doing something he doesn't need to do. TERENCE SMITH: Is there, Diane, from a journalistic point of view, any corruption in your mind in the idea of making deals with people, booking guests with enticements? DIANE SAWYER: It depends what you do, and it depends whether you're violating your own sense of what is valuable, what is intelligent, and what is gained sometimes too. You know, the booking war is nothing new. The booking war has been going on for decades, and it's only more visible in the morning because you have a third party joining in, but it's always taken place. To me the challenge has never been so much about that; it's about how intelligent can you make it? How smart can you be? And are you trading against your ability to make something interesting and intelligent? And I think that's more corrupt than simply saying, "Somebody decided to do two parts, and they decided to do three, so they must be corrupt." If the did three really intelligently and informatively, that's journalism. CHARLES GIBSON: But you know, Terry, when morning television started, it was really the only outlet for those kinds of interviews. If a new movie was coming out or if a artistic project somewhere was being launched, there really was nowhere else to go on television to talk about those things. Now there is talk television all through the day, so if somebody comes on to talk about a movie, they're on a morning show, and then they're on another show in the late morning, and then they're on another show in the early afternoon, and then they're on "Entertainment Tonight." I mean, it goes on and on and on. So it's not unique any more. So our focus is who has a story to tell? Who has something really interesting to talk about? What's different? What's intelligent? What will really capture your imagination or your heart strings or whatever? And that's what we're looking for, not just the third lead of a movie. TERENCE SMITH: OK. That's great. Thank you both very much, because I know you've got a lot to do.