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PRESIDENT CLINTON TESTIFIES
August 21, 1998
Online NewsHour
The full text of President Clinton's videotaped Aug. 17 grand jury testimony. WARNING: This transcript contains frank discussion and descriptions of sexually explicit acts.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, would you raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Good afternoon.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Could you please state your full name for the record, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: William Jefferson Clinton.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: My name is Sol Wisenberg. I'm a deputy independent counsel with the Office of Independent Counsel. And with me today are some other attorneys from the Office of Independent Counsel.
At the courthouse are the ladies and gentlemen of the grand jury prepared to receive your testimony as you give it. Do you understand, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: This proceeding is subject to Rule 6(e) of the federal rules of criminal procedure as modified by Judge Johnson's order.
You are appearing voluntarily today as part of an agreement worked out between your attorney, the Office of the Independent Counsel, and with the approval of Judge Johnson. Is that correct, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That is correct.
(UNKNOWN): Mr. Wisenberg, excuse me. You referred to Judge Johnson's order. I'm not familiar with that order. Have we been served that or not?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: No. My understand is that that is an order that the judge is going to sign today. She didn't have the name of Awaka (ph). A person -- basically, my understanding is that it will cover all of the attorneys here today and the technical people in the room. So that they would be authorized personally to be permitted to hear grand jury testimony that they otherwise wouldn't be authorized to hear.
(UNKNOWN): Thank you.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: The grand jury, Mr. President, has been empaneled by a United States District Court for the District of Columbia. Do you understand that, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And among other things, it's currently investigating under the authority of the Court of Appeals upon application by the attorney general whether Monica Lewinsky or others obstructed justice, intimidated witnesses or committed other crimes related to the case of Jones versus Clinton. Do you understand that, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And today, you will be receiving questions not only from attorneys on the OIC staff, but from some of the grand jurors, too. Do you understand that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir. I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I'm going to talk briefly about your rights and responsibilities as a grand jury witness. Normally, grand jury witnesses, while not allowed to have attorneys in the grand jury room with them, can stop and consult with their attorneys.
But our arrangement today, your attorneys are here and present for consultation. (OFF-MIKE) to consult with them as necessary, but it won't count against (OFF-MIKE). Do you understand that, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do understand that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You have a privilege against self-incrimination. If a truthful answer to any question would tend to incriminate you, you can invoke the privilege and that application will not be used against you. Do you understand that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And if you don't invoke it, however, any of the answers that you do give can and will be used against you. Do you understand that, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, do you understand that your testimony here today is under oath?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And do you understand that because you've been sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that if you were to lie or intentionally mislead the grand jury you could be prosecuted for perjury and/or obstruction of justice?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believe that's correct.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Is there anything that you -- I have stated to you regarding your rights and responsibilities that you would like me to clarify that you don't understand?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, I'd like to read for you a portion of federal ...(ph) 603, which discusses the important function the oath has in our judicial system.
It says that the purpose of the oath is 1) quote, "calculated to awaken the witness' conscience and impress the witness' mind with the duty" end quote -- to tell the truth.
Could you please tell the grand jury what that oath means to you for today's testimony?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I have sworn an oath to tell the grand jury the truth and that's what I intend to do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You understand it requires you to give the whole truth, that is a complete answer to each question, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I will answer each question as accurately and fully as I can.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Now, you took the same oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth on January 17, 1998 in a deposition in the Paul Jones litigation, is that correct, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I did take an oath there.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did the oath you took on that occasion mean the same to you then as it does today?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believed then that I had to answer the questions truthfully, that's correct.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, sir.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believe that I had to answer the questions truthfully, that's correct.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And it meant the same to you then as it does today?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, no one read me a definition then and we didn't go through this exercise then. I swore an oath to tell the truth and I believed I was bound to be truthful and I tried to be.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: At the Paula Jones deposition, you were represented by Mr. Robert Bennett, your counsel, is that correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That is correct.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: He was authorized by you to be your representative, or your attorney, is that correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That is correct.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Your counsel, Mr. Bennett, indicated that -- page five of the deposition, lines 10 through 12, I'm quoting: "The president intends to give full and complete answers as Ms. Jones is entitled to have." End quote.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: My question to you is -- Do you agree with your counsel that his client in the sexual harassment case is, to use his words, "entitled to have the truth"?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believe that I was bound to give truthful answers. Yes, sir.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: But the question is, sir, do you agree with your counsel that a plaintiff in a sexual harassment case is entitled to have the truth?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believe when a witness is under oath in a civil case or otherwise under oath, the witness should do everything possible to answer the questions truthfully.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I want to turn over questioning now to Mr. Bittman of our office, Mr. President.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Good afternoon, Mr. Bittman.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: My name is Robert Bittman. I'm an attorney with the Office of Independent Counsel.
Mr. President, we are first going to turn to some of the details of your relationship with Monica Lewinsky that follow on your deposition that you provided in the Paula Jones case as was referenced on January 17, 1998.
The questions are uncomfortable and I apologize for that in advance. I'll try to be as brief and direct as possible.
Mr. President, were you physically intimate with Monica Lewinsky?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Bittman, I think maybe I can save the -- you and the grand jurors a lot of time if I read a statement which I think will make it clear what the nature of my relationship with Ms. Lewinsky was, how it related to the testimony I gave, what I was trying to do in that testimony. And I think it will perhaps make it possible for you to ask even more relevant questions from your point of view.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And with your permission, I'd like to read that statement.
UNKNOWN: Absolutely. Please, Mr. President.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: When I was alone with Ms. Lewinsky on certain occasions in early 1996, and once in early 1997, I engaged in conduct that was wrong. These encounters did not consist of sexual intercourse. They did not constitute sexual relations, as I understood that term to be defined at my January 17th, 1998 deposition.
But they did involve inappropriate, intimate contact. These inappropriate encounters ended at my insistence in early 1997. I also had occasional telephone conversations with Ms. Lewinsky that included inappropriate sexual banter.
I regret that what began as a friendship came to include this conduct. And I take full responsibility for my actions. While I will provide the grand jury whatever other information I can, because of privacy considerations affecting my family, myself and others, and in an effort to preserve the dignity of the office I hold, this is all I will say about the specifics of these particular matters.
I will try to answer to the best of my ability other questions, including questions about my relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, questions about my understanding of the term of sexual relations, as I understood it to be defined at my January 17th, 1998, deposition, and questions concerning alleged subordination of perjury, obstruction of justice and intimidation of witnesses.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That, Mr. Bittman, is my statement.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Thank you, Mr. President. And we would like to take a break.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Would you like to have this?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Yes, please. As a matter of fact, why don't we have that marked as grand jury exhibit WBAC-1 (ph).
PRESIDENT CLINTON: So, are we going to take a break?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Yes, we'll take a break. And we have the camera off now, please.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, you statement indicates that your contacts with Ms. Lewinsky did not involve any inappropriate intimate contact. Mr. Bittman...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, indicates that it did inappropriate intimate contact.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: OK, it did involve inappropriate intimate contact.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir, it did.
(UNKNOWN): Mr. Bittman, the witness does not have a copy of his statement.
We just have the one copy.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: (OFF-MIKE)
(UNKNOWN): Thank you.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Was this contact with Ms. Lewinsky -- Mr. President, did it involve any sexual contact in any way, shape or form?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Bittman, I said in this statement I would like to stay to the terms of the statement. I think it's clear what inappropriately intimate is. I have said what it did not include. It did not include sexual intercourse, and I did not believe that it included conduct which falls within the definition I was given in the Jones deposition. And I would like to stay with that characterization.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: (OFF-MIKE) rule 2, the definition that was provided you during your deposition. We'll have that marked as grand jury exhibit WJC2. This is an exact copy, Mr. President, of the exhibit that was provided you during that deposition. And I'm sure you remember, throughout the deposition, that paragraph one of the definition remained in effect, that Judge Wright rule that that was to be the guiding definition in that paragraphs 2 and 3 were stricken. Do you remember that Mr. President?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes. Specifically what I remembered is there were two different discussions, I think, of this. There was quite an extended one in the beginning. And everybody was entering into it. And then in the end, the judge said that she would take the -- excuse me --the first definition and strike the rest of it. That's my memory.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you -- well, at page 19 of your deposition in the case, the attorney who provided you with the deposition asked you --Would you please take whatever time you need to read the deposition.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And later on the deposition, you did, of course, refer to the deposition several times. Were you, during the deposition, familiar with the definition?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir. My -- let me just ask a question. If you're going to ask me about my deposition, could I have a copy of it? Does anybody have a copy of it?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: We have a copy we'll provide your counsel.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: (OFF-MIKE) entered into the (OFF-MIKE).
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Now, you say that was on page 19, Mr. Bittman?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Page 19, Mr. President, beginning at line 21. I will read it in full. This is from the Jones attorney. "Would you please take whatever time you need to read this definition because when I use the term sexual relations, this is what I mean today."
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir. That stops on 19. Let me say that there is a -- just for the record -- if my recollection was accurate -- there was a long discussion here between the attorneys and the judge.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: It goes on until page 23, and in the end, the judge says: I'm talking only about part one in the definition. And do you understand that?
And I answered, "I do."
So the judge says part one and then the lawyer for Ms. Jones says he's only talking about part one. And they asked me if I understand it, and I say I do. And that was my understanding.
I might also note that when I was given this and began to ask questions about it, I circled number one. This is my circle here. I remember doing that so I could focus only on those two lines, which is what I did.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you understand the word in the first portion of the exhibit, Mr. President? That is for the purposes of this deposition, the person who engages in -- quote, unquote -- "sexual relations" that a person knowingly engages in or causes -- did you understand -- do you understand the words there in that phrase?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes. My -- I can tell you what my understanding of the definition is.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Sure.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: If you want me to, let's (ph) do it.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: My understanding of this definition is that it covers contact by the person being deposed with the enumerated areas, if the contact is done with an intent to arouse or gratify. That's my understanding of the definition.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What did you believe the definition to include and exclude? What kind of exclusions?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I thought the definition included any activity by the person being deposed where the person was the actor and came in contact with those parts of the body with the purpose or intent of gratification, and excluded any other activity. For example, kissing's not covered by that, I don't think.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you understand the definition to be limited to sexual activity?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, I understood the definition to be limited to physical contact with those areas of the body with the specific intent to arouse or gratify. That's what I understood it to be.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What specific acts did the definition include, as you understood the definition on January 17th, 1998?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Any contact with the areas that are mentioned, sir. If you contacted those parts of the body with an intent to arouse or gratify, that is covered.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What did you understand...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: The person being deposed. If the person being deposed contacted those parts of another person's body with an intent to arouse or gratify, that was covered.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What did you understand the word "causes" in the first phrase to mean? For the purposes of this deposition, the person engages in sexual relations when the person knowingly causes contact?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't know what that means. It doesn't make any sense to me in this context, because I think what I thought there was since this was some sort of, as I remember they said in the previous discussion -- and I'm only remembering now, so if I make a mistake, you can correct me -- is I remember from the previous discussion they said this was some kind of definition that had something to do with sexual harassment. So, that implies as forcing to me.
And there was never any issue of forcing in the case involving --well, any of these questions they were asking me. They made it clear in this discussion I just reviewed that what they were referring to was intentional sexual conduct, not some sort of forceable abusive behavior.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: So I basically -- I don't think I paid any attention to it because it appeared to me that that was something that had no reference to the facts that they admitted they were asking me about.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: So if I can be clear, Mr. President, is it -- was it your understanding back in January that definition, now marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 2, only included consensual sexual activity?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: My understanding -- let me go back and say, my understanding -- I'll tell you what it did include. My understanding was, when I was giving it to you, was that what was covered in those first two lines was any direct contact by the person being deposed with those parts of another person's body if the contact was done with an intent to arouse or gratify. That's what I believed it meant. That's what I believed it meant then (AUDIO GAP); that's what I believe it means today.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I'm just trying to understand, Mr. President. You indicated that you put the definition in the context of a sexual harassment case...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, no, I think it was not in the context of sexual harassment. I just re-read those four pages, which obviously the grand jury doesn't have. But there was some reference to the fact that this definition apparently bore some -- had some connection to some definition in another context and that this was being used not in that context, not necessarily in the context of sexual harassment.
So I would think that this causes would be -- means to force someone to do something. That's what I read it. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
Therefore, I did not believe that any one had ever suggested that I had forced anyone to do anything and I did not do that. And so, that could not have had any bearing on any questions relating to Ms. Lewinsky.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I suppose since you have now read portions of the transcripts and that you were reminded that you did not ask for any clarification of the terms, is that correct? Of the definition?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, I thought it was a rather -- when I read it, I thought it was a rather strange definition. But it was the one the judge decided on, and I was bound by it, so I took it.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: During the deposition, you remember that Ms. Lewinsky's name came up and you were asked several questions about her. Do you remember that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir. I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: During those -- before those questions actually got started, your attorney, Mr. Bennett, objected to any questions about Ms. Lewinsky. And he represented to Judge Wright, who was presiding that was unusual, wasn't it? -- that a federal judge would come and actually -- in your experience, that a federal judge would come and preside at a deposition?
KENDALL: Excuse me. Could you identify the transcript page from which Mr. Bennett objected to all testimony about Ms. Lewinsky before it got started?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: The objection -- the quote that I'm referring to is going to begin at page 54 of the deposition.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, is it unusual for a federal judge to preside over a civil deposition?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think it is, but this was an unusual case. I believe I know why she did it.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Your attorney, Mr. Bennett, objected to the questions about Ms. Lewinsky, didn't he?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: What page is that on, sir?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Page 54. He questions whether the attorneys for Ms. Jones had a good-faith basis to ask some of the questions that they were posing to you.
His objections actually begin on page 53. Since the president points out to the grand jurors, correctly, do not have a copy of the deposition, I will read the portion that I'm referring to. And this begins at line 1 of page 54.
"I question the good faith of counsel, the innuendo of the question. Counsel is fully aware that Ms. Lewinsky has filed -- has an affidavit, which they are in possession of, saying that there is absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton."
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Where is that?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: That is on page 54, beginning at line 1. About midway through line 1.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, actually, in the present tense, that's an accurate statement. That was an actual -- that was an accurate statement. If -- I don't -- I think what Mr. Bennett was concerned about, if I -- maybe it would be helpful to you and to the grand jurors, quite apart from these comments, if I could tell you what his state of mind was and what my state of mind was and why I think he read (ph) it (ph) to him in the first place.
If you don't want me to do it, I won't. But I think it will help to explain a lot of this.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Well, we are interested -- I know from the questions that we received from the grand jurors they are interested in knowing what was going on in your mind when you were reading Grand Jury Exhibit 2 and what you understood that definition to include.
Our question goes to whether -- and you were familiar with (ph) what Mr. Bennett was referring to, obviously, as Ms. Lewinsky's affidavit. And we will have that marked, Mr. President, as Grand Jury Exhibit WJC 4.
Do you remember what Ms. Lewinsky's affidavit said, that she had had no sexual relationship with you? Do you remember that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Do you remember in the deposition that Mr. Bennett asked you about that? This is at the end of the -- of the -- toward the end of the deposition. And you indicated -- he asked you whether the statement that Ms. Lewinsky made in her affidavit was true. And you indicated that it was absolutely correct.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I did. And at the time that she made the statement --and indeed, to the present day, because as far as I know she was never deposed since the judge ruled she would not be permitted to testify in a case the judge ruled had no merit -- that is this case we're talking about -- I believe at the time that she filled out this affidavit, if she believed that the definition of sexual relationship was two people having intercourse, then this is accurate. And I believe that is the definition that most ordinary Americans would give it.
If you said Jane and Harry had a sexual relationship -- and they're not talking about people being drawn into a lawsuit and being given a definition and then a great effort to trick them in some way -- but you're just talking about people in an ordinary conversation, I bet the grand jurors, if they were talking about two people they know and said they had a sexual relationship, they meant they were sleeping together. They meant they were having intercourse together.
So I'm not at all sure that this affidavit is not true and was not true in Ms. Lewinsky's mind at the time she swore (ph) it out.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you talk with Ms. Lewinsky about what she meant to write in her affidavit?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I didn't talk to her about her definition. I did not know what was in this affidavit before it was filled out, specifically. I did not know what words was used -- were used specifically before it was filled out or what meaning she gave to them.
But I'm just telling you that it's certainly true what she says here, that we didn't have -- there was no employment or benefit in exchange. There was nothing having anything to do with sexual harassment.
And if she defined sexual relationship in the way I think most Americans do, meaning intercourse, then she told the truth.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And that depends on what was in her mind. I don't know what is her mind. You'll have to ask her that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: But you indicated before that you were aware of what she intended by the term sexual relationship.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. I said I thought that -- that this could be a truthful affidavit. And when I read it, since that's the way I would define it -- since keep in mind she was not -- she was not bound by this sexual relations definition, which is highly unusual. I think anybody would admit that.
When she used two different terms, sexual relationship, if she meant by that what most people mean by it, then that is not an untruthful statement.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: So your definition of sexual relationship is intercourse only, is that correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, not necessarily intercourse only, but it would include intercourse. I believe -- I believe that the common understanding of the term, if you say two people are having a sexual relationship, most people believe that includes intercourse. So if that's what Ms. Lewinsky thought, then this is a truthful affidavit. I don't know what was in her mind, but if that's what she thought, the affidavit is true.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What else would sexual relationship include besides intercourse?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, that -- I think -- let me answer what I said before. I think most people when they use that term include sexual relationships and what other -- whatever other sexual contact is involved in a particular relationship. But they think it includes intercourse as well.
And I would have thought so before I got into this case and heard all I've heard and seen all I've seen -- I would have thought that's what nearly everybody thought it meant.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Well, I ask, Mr. President, because your (ph) using the very document -- grand jury exhibit 4, WJC 4 --- represented to Judge Wright that his (ph) understanding of the meaning of that affidavit, which you've indicated you thought Ms. Lewinsky thought was -- was just intercourse. He says to Judge Wright that it meant absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, let me say this: I didn't have any discussion, obviously, at this moment with Mr. Bennett. I'm not even sure I paid much attention to what he was saying. I was think -- I was ready to get on with my testimony here, and they were having these constant discussions all through the deposition.
But that statement in the presence tense, at least, is not inaccurate, if that's what Mr. Bennett meant. But as -- at the time that he said that and for some time before, that would be a completely accurate statement.
Now I don't believe that he was -- I don't know what he meant. You'd have to talk to him, because I just wasn't involved in this and I didn't pay much attention to what being said. I was just waiting for them to get back to me. So I can't comment on or be held responsible for whatever he said about that, I don't think.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Well, if you -- do you agree with me that he misled Judge Wright in some way, that you would have corrected the record and said, excuse me, Mr. Bennett, I think the judge is getting a misimpression by what you're saying?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Bennett was representing me. I wasn't representing him. And I wasn't even paying much attention to this conversation, which is why when you started asking me about this, I asked to see the deposition.
I was focusing on my answers to the questions, and I told you what I believe about this deposition, which I believe to be true. And it's obvious -- and I think by your questions, you have betrayed that the Jones lawyers strategy in this case had nothing to do with uncovering or proving sexual harassment.
By the time this discovery started, they knew they had a base case on the law. And they knew what our evidence was -- they knew they had a lousy case on the facts.
And so their strategy, since they were being funded by my political opponents, was to have this dragnet of discovery.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: They wanted to cover everybody. And they convinced the judge, because she gave them strict orders not to leave, that they should be treated like other plaintiffs in other civil cases. And how could they ever know whether there had been any sexual harassment unless they first knew whether there had been sex?
And so with that broad mandate, limited by time and employment in the federal/state government, they proceeded to cross the country and try to turn up whatever they could -- not because they thought it would help their case. By the time they did this discovery, they knew what the deal was in that case. And they knew what was going to happen. Judge Wright subsequently threw it out.
What they...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: But...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Now let me finish, Mr. Bennett. You've got -- I mean, you brought this up.
Excuse me, Mr. Bittman. What they wanted to do and what they did do and what they have done by the time I showed up here was to find any negative information they could on me, whether it was true or not. Get it in a deposition, and then leak it, even though it was illegal to do so. It happened repeatedly. The judge gave them orders.
One of the reasons she was sitting in that deposition was because she was trying to make sure that it didn't get out of hand.
But that was their strategy, and they did a good job of it. And they got away with it.
I've been subject to quite a lot of illegal leaking. And they had a very determined, deliberate strategy, because their real goal was to hurt me. When they knew they couldn't win the lawsuit, they thought, well. maybe we can pummel him. Maybe they thought I'd settle. Maybe they just thought they would get some political advantage out of it.
But that's what was going on here. Now, I'm trying to be honest with you and it hurts me. And I'm trying to tell you the truth about what happened between Ms. Lewinsky and me.
But that does not change the fact that the real reason they were zeroing in on anybody was to try to get any person in there, no matter how uninvolved with Paula Jones, no matter how uninvolved with sexual harassment, so they could hurt me politically.
That's what was going on, because by then, by this time, this thing had been going on a long time. They knew what our evidence was; they knew what the law was in the circuit in which we (ph) were bringing this case.
And so they just thought that they would take a wrecking ball to me and see if they could do some damage.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Judge Wright had ruled that the attorneys in the Jones case were permitted to ask you certain questions.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: She certainly did, and they asked them, and I did my best to answer them. I'm just trying to tell you what my state of mind was.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Was it your responsibility to answer those questions truthfully, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: It was. But it was not my responsibility, in the face of their repeated illegal leaking, it was not my responsibility to volunteer a lot of information.
There are many cases in this deposition where I gave -- and keep in mind, I prepared -- I treated them, frankly, with respect. I prepared very well for this deposition on the Jones' matters. I prepared very well on that.
I did not know that Linda Tripp had been involved in the preparation of this deposition or that all of...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Do you know that now?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, I don't. I just know that -- what I read in the papers about it. But I had no way of knowing that they would ask me all these detailed questions. I did the best I could to answer them.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: But in this deposition, Mr. Bittman, I was doing my best to be truthful. I was not trying to be particularly helpful to them. And I didn't think I had an obligation to be particularly helpful to them to further -- when I knew that there was no evidence here of sexual harassment. And I knew what they wanted to do was to leak this even though it was unlawful to do so. That's what I knew.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you believe, Mr. President, that you had an obligation to make sure that the presiding federal judge was on board and had the correct facts? Did you believe that was your obligation?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Sir, I was trying to answer my testimony. I was thinking about my testimony. I don't believe I ever even focused on what Mr. Bennett said in the exact words he did until I started reading this transcript carefully for this hearing.
That moment, the whole argument just passed me by. I was a witness. I was trying to focus on what I said and how I said it. And believe me, I knew what the purpose of the deposition was.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And sure enough, by the way, it did all leak, just I knew it would.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Let me ask you, Mr. President, you indicate in your statement that you were alone with Ms. Lewinsky. Is that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: How many times were you alone with Ms. Lewinsky?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Let me begin with the correct answer -- I don't know for sure. But if you would like me to give an educated guess, I will do that. But I do not know for sure. And I will tell you what I think based on what I remember. But I can't be held to a specific time because I don't have records of all of them.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: How many times do you think?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, there are two different periods here. There is the period when she worked in the White House until April of '96. And then there's the period when she came back to visit me from February '97 until late December '97.
Based on our records -- let's start with the records, where we have the best records and the closest in time -- based on our records, between February and December, it appears to me that at least I could have seen her approximately nine times. Although I do not believe I saw her quite that many times, at least it could have happened. We think there were nine or 10 times when she was in the White House when I was in the Oval Office when I could have seen her. I do not believe I saw her that many times, but I could have.
Now, we have no records for the time when she was an employee at the White House because we have no records of that for any of the employees at the White House unless there is some formally scheduled meeting that was on the calendar for the day.
I remember -- I'll tell you what I remember. I remember meeting her or having my first real conversation with her during the government shutdown in November of '95, when she -- as I explained in my deposition, during the government shutdown, most federal employees were actually prohibited from coming to work even in the White House. Most people in the White House couldn't come to work. The chief of staff could come to work; my national security adviser could come to work; I could.
Therefore, interns were assigned to all offices. And I believe it was her last week as an intern. Anyway, she worked in the chief of staff's office. One night, she brought me some pizza; we had some remarks. Now, the next time I remember seeing her alone was on a couple of occasions when she was working in the Legislative Affairs Office as a full time employee.
I remember specifically -- I have a specific recollection of two times. I don't remember when they were. But I remember twice when, on a Sunday afternoon, she brought papers down to me, stayed and we were alone.
And I am frankly quite sure -- although I have no specific memory, I am quite sure -- that there were a couple of more times, probably two times more, three times more. That's what I would say. That's what I can remember. But I do not remember when they were or at what time of day they were or what the facts were. But I have a general memory that would say I certainly saw her more than twice during that period between January and April of 1996 when she worked there.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: So, if I can summarize your testimony, approximately five times you saw her before she left the White House, and approximately nine times after she left the employment of the White House.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't -- there were several times in '97. I told you that I've looked at my calendar and I can tell you what I think the outer limits are. I would think that would sound about right. There could be, in that first four month period, maybe there's one or two more, maybe there's one less. I just don't know. I don't remember. I didn't keep records. But I'm giving you what I specifically remember, and then what I generally remember. I'm doing the best to be helpful to you.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Have you reviewed the records for December 28, 1997, Mr. President.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir, I have.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Do you believe that Ms. Lewinsky was at the White House and saw you on December 28th, '97?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir, I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And do you remember talking with Ms. Lewinsky about her subpoena to appear in the Paula Jones case on that day?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I remember talking with Ms. Lewinsky about her testimony or about the prospect that she might have to give testimony. And she -- she talked to me about that. I remember that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And you also gave her Christmas gifts -- is that not correct, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, that is correct. They were Christmas gifts and they were going-away gifts. She was moving to New York, taking a new job, starting a new life and I gave her some gifts.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And you actually requested this evening. Is that not correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember that, Mr. Bittman, but it's quite possible that I invited her to come by before she left town. But usually when we met, she requested the meetings. And my recollection is that in 1997, she asked to meet with me several times when I could not meet with her and did not do so.
But it's quite possible that I -- that because she had given me a Christmas gift and because she was leaving that I invited her to come by White House and get a couple of gifts -- and before she left town. I don't remember who requested the meeting though. I'm sorry I don't.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You were alone with her on December 28th, 1997?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir. I was.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: The gifts that you gave her, you are saying were a tennis bag from the Black Dog Restaurant at Martha's Vineyard. Is that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, that was just -- that was just something I had in the place to contain the gifts. But I believe that the gifts I gave her -- I put them in that bag. That's what I had there and knew she liked things from the Black Dog so I gave her -- I think that's what I put the presents in. I can tell you what the presents were. I don't remember what the bag was I gave them in.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you also give here a marble bear's head carving from Vancouver, Canada?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I did do that. I remember that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You also gave her a Rockettes blanket (OFF-MIKE) from New York?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I did do that. I had -- I have had that in my possession for a couple of years, but had never used it and she was going to New York, so I thought it would be a nice thing to give her.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You gave her a box of cherry chocolates. Is that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember that, sir. I mean, there could have been. I just don't remember. I remember giving the bear and the throw. I don't remember what else. It seems to like there was other thing in that bag. I don't -- I didn't remember the cherry chocolates.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: How about a pin of the New York skyline?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That could have been in there. I seem to remember I gave her some kind of pin.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What about a pair of dark sunglasses?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember that. I'm not denying it. I just --I'm telling you what I remember and what I don't.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You have given Ms. Lewinsky gifts on other occasions. Is that right, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, I have.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: This though was -- you gave her the most gifts that you had ever given her in a single day. Is that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, that's probably true. It was sort of like a going-away present and a Christmas present as well and she had given me a particularly nice book for Christmas -- an antique book on presidents. She knew that I collected old books and it was very nice thing. And I just thought I ought to get up a few things and give them to her before she left.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You mentioned that you discussed her subpoena in the Paula Jones case. Tell us specifically what did you discuss?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, that's what I said. I said my recollection is -- I knew by then, of course, that she had gotten a subpoena and I knew that she was -- therefore -- was slated to testify.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And she mentioned to me -- and I believe it was at this meeting. She mentioned -- I remember a conversation about the possibility of her testifying. I believe it must have occurred on the 28th.
She mentioned to me that she did not want to testify. And so --so that's how it came up -- not in the context of, "I heard you have a subpoena. Let's talk about it."
She raised the issue with me in the context of her desire to avoid testifying, which I certainly understood, not only because there were some embarrassing facts about our relationship that were inappropriate, but also because a whole lot of innocent people were being traumatized and dragged through the mud by these Jones lawyers with their dragnet strategy. They...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: (OFF-MIKE).
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And so I -- and since she didn't know Paula Jones, and knew nothing about sexual harassment, and didn't have -- certainly had no experience with that, I -- I clearly understood why she didn't want to be a part of it.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And you didn't want her to testify, did you? You want her to disclose these embarrassing facts of this inappropriate, intimate relationship that you had? Is that correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I did not want her to have to testify and go through that. And of course, I had -- I didn't want her to do that. Of course not.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you want those facts -- not only the fact that you had testified, but did you want the facts that she had about your embarrassing, inappropriate, intimate relationship to be disclosed?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Not there. But not in any context. However, I -- I never had any high confidence that they wouldn't be.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did anyone, as far as you knew, know about your embarrassing, inappropriate, intimate relationship that you had with Ms. Lewinsky?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: At that time, I was unaware that she had told anyone else about it. But if -- if I had known that, I would -- it would not have surprised me.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Had you told anyone?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Absolutely not.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And you tried, in fact, not to let anyone else know about this relationship?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, of course.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What did you do?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I never said anything about it, for one thing. And I did what people do when they do the wrong thing. I tried to do it when nobody else was looking.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: How many times did you do that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, if you go back to my statement, I remember there were a few times in '96. I can't say with any certainty. There was once in early '97. After she left the White House, I do not believe I ever had any inappropriate contact with her in the rest of '96. There was one occasion in '97 when, regrettably, that we were together for a few minutes. I think about 20 minutes. And there was inappropriate contact. And after that, to the best of my memory and belief, it did not occur again.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you tell her in the conversation about her being subpoenaed -- she was upset about it. You acknowledged that.
I'm sorry, you have to respond for the record, yes or no. Do you agree that she was upset about being subpoenaed?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, yes, sir, she was upset. She -- well, she -- we --she didn't -- we didn't talk about the subpoena. But she was upset. She said, "I don't want to testify. I know nothing about this. I certainly know nothing about sexual harassment. Why do they want me to testify?"
And I explained to her why they were doing this, and why all these women were on these lists -- and people that they knew good and well had nothing to do with any sexual harassment. I explained to her that it was a political lawsuit. They wanted to get whatever they could under oath that was damaging to me.
And then they wanted to leak it in violation of the judge's orders, and turn up their nose and say, "Well, you can't prove we did it." Now, that was their strategy.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And they were very frustrated because everything they'd leaked so far was old news. So they desperately were trying to validate this massive amount of money they'd spent by finding some new news. And...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: (OFF-MIKE)...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: ... she didn't want to be caught up in that and I didn't blame her.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: But you were familiar, weren't you, Mr. President, that she had received this subpoena? You've already acknowledged...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir. I was.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And Mr. Jordan informed you of that? Is that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. I believe -- and I believe I testified to this in my deposition -- I think the first person who told me that she had been subpoenaed was Bruce Lindsey. I think the first thing -- and I was in this deposition. It's a little bit cloudy. But I was trying to remember who the first person who told me was, because the question was -- again, as I remember -- could we go to that in the deposition, since you asked me that?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Actually, I think you're -- with all respect, I think you may be confusing again Mr. Lindsey's -- perhaps Mr. Lindsey did tell you she was subpoenaed. I don't know. But in your deposition, you were referring to Mr. Lindsey notifying you that she had been identified as a witness.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Where is that, sir? I don't want to get -- I just want to -- what page is that?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Well, actually...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, it hadn't, because I saw a witness list much earlier than that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Much earlier than December 28th?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, sure. It had been earlier than -- she -- I believe Monica...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Page 69.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believe Monica Lewinsky's name was on a witness list earlier than when she was subpoenaed.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Yes.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: So I believe, when I was answering this question -- at least I thought I was answering when I found out -- yes, see, there's -- on page 68, "Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you Monica Lewinsky had been served with a subpoena in this case?"
Then I said, "I don't think so." Then I (sic) said, "Did you ever talk to Monica about the possibility that she might be asked to testify in this case?" Then I gave an answer that was nonresponsive that really tried to finish the answer above. And I said, "Bruce Lindsey."
I think Bruce Lindsey told me that she was. I think maybe that's the first person who told me that she was. And I want to be as accurate as I can.
And that -- I believe that Bruce is the first person who told me that Monica had gotten a subpoena.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you, in fact, have a conversation with Mr. Jordan on the evening of December 19, 1997, in which he talked to you about Monica being in Mr. Jordan's office, bringing a copy of the subpoena, and being upset about being subpoenaed?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I remember that Mr. Jordan was in the White House, and on December 19th, for an event of some kind. But he came up to the residence floor and told me that he had -- that Monica had gotten the subpoena and that Monica was going to have to testify.
And I think he told me he recommended a lawyer for her. I believe that's what happened. But it was a very brief conversation. He was there for some other reason.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And if Mr. Jordan testified that he had also spoken to you at around 5:00 p.m. -- and the White House phone logs reflect this -- that he called you at around the time he met with Ms. Lewinsky and informed you then that she had been subpoenaed. Is that consistent with your memory? Also on the 19th.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I had a lot of phone conversations with Vernon about this. I didn't keep records of them. I mean, I have some records. My memory is not clear. My testimony on that was not clear.
I just knew that I had talked to Vernon at some time. But I thought that Bruce was the first person who told me.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: But Mr. Jordan had also told you? Is that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes. I now know I had a conversation with Mr. Jordan about it where he said something to me about that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And that was probably on the 19th. December 19th.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I know I saw him on the 19th, so I'm quite sure. And if he says he talked to me on the 19th, I believe he would have better records and I certainly think he's a truthful person.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Getting back to your meeting with Ms. Lewinsky on December 28th, you are aware that she's been subpoenaed.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You are aware, are you not, Mr. President, that the subpoena called for the production of, among other things, all the gifts that you had given Ms. Lewinsky? You were aware of that on December 28th, weren't you?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I'm not sure, and I understand this is an important question. I did have a conversation with Ms. Lewinsky at some time about gifts, the gifts I'd given her. I do not know whether it occurred on the 28th or whether it occurred earlier. I do not know whether it occurred in person or whether it occurred on the telephone. I have searched my memory for this because I know it's an important issue.
Perhaps if you -- I can tell you what I remember about the conversation and you can see why I'm having trouble placing a date.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Please.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: The reason I'm not sure it happened on the 28th is that my recollection is that Ms. Lewinsky said something to me like "What if they ask me about the gifts you've given me?" That's the memory I have. That's why I question whether it happened on the 28th, because she had a subpoena with her, a request for production.
And I told her that if they asked her for gifts, she'd have to give them whatever she had, that that's what the law was.
And let me also tell you, Mr. Bittman, if you go back and look at my testimony here, I actually asked the Jones' lawyers for help on one occasion when they were asking me what gifts I had given her so they could -- I was never hung up about this gift issue. Maybe it's because I have a different experience.
But you know, the president gets hundreds of gifts a year --maybe more. I have always given a lot of gifts to people, especially if they've given me gifts. And this was no big deal to me.
I mean, it's nice, I enjoy it. I gave dozens of personal gifts to people last Christmas. I give gifts to people all the time. Friends of mine give me gifts all the time -- give me ties, give me books, give me other things.
So it was just not a big deal. And I told Ms. Lewinsky that just -- I said, you know, if they ask you for this, you'll have to give them whatever you have.
And I think, Mr. Bittman, it must have happened before then. Either that, or Ms. Lewinsky didn't want to tell me that she had the subpoena, because that was the language I remember her using.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Well, did she tell you, Mr. President, that the subpoena specifically called for a hat pin that you had produced, or that you had given her?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember that. I remember, sir -- I've told you what I remember. It doesn't mean that my memory is accurate. A lot of things have happened in the last several months. A lot of things were happening then.
But my memory is she asked me a general question about gifts. And my memory is she asked me in the hypothetical. So it's possible that I had a conversation with her before she got a subpoena. Or it's possible she didn't want to tell me that was part of the subpoena. I don't know.
But she may have been worried about this gift business, but it didn't bother me. My experience was totally different.
I told her, I said, look, the way these things work is when a person gets a subpoena, you have to give them whatever you have. That's what the rule -- that's what the law is.
And I -- when I was asked about this in my deposition, even though I was not trying to be helpful, particularly to these people that I thought were not well-motivated or being honest or even lawful in their conduct vis-a-vis me -- that is, the Jones' legal team -- I did ask them specifically to enumerate the gifts. I asked them to help me because I couldn't remember the specifics.
So all I'm saying is, it didn't -- I wasn't troubled by this gift issue.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And your testimony is that Ms. Lewinsky was concerned about her turning over any gifts that you had given her, and that your recommendation to her was, absolutely, Monica, you have to produce everything that I have given you? Is that your testimony?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: My testimony is what I have said. And let me reiterate it. I don't want to agree to a characterization of it; I want to just say what it was.
My testimony is that my memory is that on some date in December -- and I'm sorry I don't remember when it was -- she said, well, what if they ask me about the gifts you have given me? And I said, well, if you get a request to produce those, you have to give them whatever you have. And it just -- to me, it -- I didn't then, I don't now see this as a problem.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And if she thought it was a problem, I think it must have been from really a misapprehension of the circumstances. I certainly never encouraged her not to comply lawfully with the subpoena.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, if your intent was, as you have earlier testified, you didn't want anyone to know about this relationship you had with Miss Lewinsky, why would you feel comfortable giving her gifts in the middle of discovery in the Paula Jones case?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, sir, for one thing, there was no existing improper relationship at that time. I had, for nearly a year, done my best to be a friend to Miss Lewinsky, to be a counselor to her, to give her good advice and to help her.
She had, for her part, most of the time, accepted the changed circumstances. She talked to me a lot about her life, her job ambitions. And she continued to give me gifts.
And I felt that it was the right thing to do to give her gifts back. I have always given a lot of people gifts. I have always been given gifts.
I do not think there is anything improper about a man giving a woman a gift or a woman giving a man a gift, that necessarily connotes an improper relationship. So it didn't bother me. I wasn't -- you know, this was December 28th. I was -- I gave her some gifts. I wasn't worried about it. I thought it was an all right thing to do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What about notes and letters? Cards, letters and notes to Miss Lewinsky? After this relationship, this intimate, inappropriate, intimate relationship between you and Miss Lewinsky ended, she continued to send you numerous intimate notes and cards. Is that right?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, they were -- some of them were somewhat intimate. I'd say most of them -- most of the notes and cards were affectionate, all right. But she had clearly accepted the fact that there could be no contact between us that was in any way inappropriate.
Now, she sent cards sometimes that were just funny, even a little bit off color, but they were funny. She liked to send me cards, and I got a lot of those cards. I have several, anyway. I don't know a lot. I got a few.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: She professed her love to you in these cards after the end of the relationship, didn't she?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: She said she loved you.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Sir, the truth is that most of the time, even when she was expressing her feelings for me in affectionate terms, I believe that she had accepted, understood my decision to stop this inappropriate contact. She knew from the very beginning of our relationship that I was apprehensive about it. And I think that in a way she felt a little freer to be affectionate, because she knew that nothing else was going to happen. I can't explain entirely what was in her mind.
But most of these messages were not what you would call over the top. They weren't things that if you read them, you would say, oh my goodness, these people are having some sort of sexual affair.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, my question...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: But some of them were quite affectionate.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: ... my question was, did she or did she not profess her love to you in these cards and letters that she sent to you after the relationship ended?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Most of them were signed "Love," you know, "Love, Monica." I don't know that I would consider -- I don't believe that in most of these cards and letters she professed her love, but she might well have.
I -- but you know, love can mean different things, too, Mr. Bittman. I have -- there are lot of women with whom I have never had any inappropriate conduct, who were friends of mine, who will say from time to time, "I love you." And I know that they don't mean anything wrong by that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Specifically, Mr. President, do you remember a card she sent you after she saw the movie "Titanic" in which she said that she reminisced or dreamed about that the romantic feelings that occurred in the movie and how that reminded her of you two. Do you remember that?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. But she could have said it. Just because I don't remember doesn't mean it wasn't there.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: So you're not denying that? That...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh no. I wouldn't deny that. I just don't remember it. You asked me if I remember it. I don't. She might have done it.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Do you ever remember telling her, Mr. President, that she should not write some of the things that she does in these cards and letters that she sends to you because it reveals -- it disclosed this relationship that you've had and that she shouldn't do it?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I remember telling her she should be careful what she wrote, because a lot of it was clearly inappropriate and would be embarrassing if somebody else read it. I don't remember when I said that. I don't remember whether it was in 1996 or when it was. I don't remember.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Embarrassing in that it was revealing of the intimate relationship that you and she had. Is that right?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do not know when I said this. So I don't know whether we did have any sort of inappropriate relationship at the time I said that to her. I don't remember.
But it's obvious that if she wrote things that she should not have written down and someone else read it, that it would be embarrassing.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: She certainly sent you something like that after the relationship began, didn't she? And so therefore there was, at the time she said it, something inappropriate going on?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, my recollection is that she -- that maybe because of changed circumstances in her own life, in 1997, after there was no more inappropriate contact, that she sent me more things in the mail and that there was sort of a disconnect sometimes between what she was saying and the plain facts of our relationship.
And I don't what caused that, but it may have been dissatisfaction with the rest of her life. I don't know.
You know, she had from the time I first met her talked to me about the rest of her personal life. And it may be that there is some reason for that.
It may be that when I did the right thing and made it stick that, in a way she felt a need to cling more closely or try to get closer to me, even though she knew nothing improper was happening or was going to happen.
I don't know the answer to that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: After you gave her the gifts on December 28th, did you speak with your secretary, Ms. Currie, and ask her to pick up a box of gifts that were some compilation of gifts that Ms. Lewinsky would have (OFF-MIKE)?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. I didn't do that. I did not do that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: When you testified in the Paula Jones case -- this was only 2½ weeks after you had given her these six gifts -- you were asked at page 75 of the deposition, lines 2 through 5: "Well, have you ever given any gifts to Monica Lewinsky?"
And you answered: "I don't recall."
And you are correct when you point out that you actually asked them to (OFF-MIKE) -- do (ph) you know that they were?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, I think what I meant there is I don't recall what they were, not that I don't recall whether I had given them.
And then, if you see, they did give me the specifics, and I gave them quite a good explanation here. I remember very clearly what the facts were about the black dog. And I said that I could have given her a hat pin and a Walt Whitman book, but I did not remember giving her a gold broach, which was true. I didn't remember it. I may have given it to her, but I didn't remember giving her one.
They didn't ask me about the Christmas gifts.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: And I don't know why I didn't think to say anything about them, but I have to tell you again, I even invited them to have a list. It was obvious to me by this point in the definition -- in this deposition that they had -- these people had access to a lot of information from somewhere. And I presume it came from Linda Tripp.
And I had no interest in not answering the questions about these gifts. I do not believe that gifts -- gifts are incriminating, nor do I think they are wrong. I think it was a good thing to do. I'm not -- I'm still not sorry I gave Monica Lewinsky gifts.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Why did you assume that that information came from Linda Tripp?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I didn't then.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I thought you just testified that you...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, no, no. I said I now assume that because of all the subsequent events. I didn't know -- I just knew that -- that some...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Let me ask you about...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: ... somebody had access to some information and they may have known more about this than I did.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Let me ask you about the meeting you had with Betty Currie at the White House on Sunday, January 18, this year, the day after your deposition. First of all, you didn't -- Mrs. Currie, your secretary of six or seven years, you never allowed her, did you, to watch whatever -- whatever intimate activity you did with Ms. Lewinsky, did you?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, not to my knowledge.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And as far as you know, she couldn't hear anything either? Is that right?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: There were a couple of times when Monica was there when I asked Betty to be places where she could hear because Monica was upset, and I -- this was after there was -- all the inappropriate contact had been terminated. But...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I'm talking about the times that you actually had the intimate contact.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: She was -- I believe that -- well, first of all, on that one occasion in 1997, I do not know whether Betty was in the White House after the radio address in the Oval Office complex. I believe she probably was, but I'm not sure. But I'm certain that someone was there. I -- always, someone was there.
In 1996, I think most of the times that Ms. Lewinsky was there, there may not have been anybody around except maybe coming in and out, but not permanently so. I did -- that's correct, I never -- I didn't try to involve Betty in that in any way.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Well, not only did you not try to involve her, you were specifically trying to exclude her and everyone else. Isn't that right?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, yes. I -- I've never -- I mean, it's almost humorous, sir. I'd have to be an exhibitionist not to have tried to exclude everyone else.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: So if Ms. Currie testified that you approached her on the 18th when you spoke with her and you said, "You were always there when she was there." She wasn't, was she? That is, Mrs. Currie.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: She was always there in the White House. And I was concerned -- let me back up a sec ...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What about the radio address, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Let me back up a second, Mr. Bittman. I knew about the radio address. I was sick after it was over. And I -- I was pleased that, at that time, it had been nearly a year since any inappropriate contact had occurred with Ms. Lewinsky.
I promised myself it wasn't going to happen again. The facts are complicated about what did happen, and how it happened. But nonetheless, I'm responsible for it.
On that night, she didn't. I was more concerned about the times after that when Ms. Lewinsky was upset, and I wanted to establish at least that I had not -- because these questions were -- some of them were off the wall. Some of them were way out of line I thought.
And when I wanted to establish was that Betty was there at all other times in the -- in the complex, and I wanted to know what Betty's memory was about what she heard, what she could hear. And what I did not know -- but I did not know that. And I was trying to figure it out. And I was trying to figure it out in a hurry because I knew something was up -- after that definition (ph).
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: So you wanted to check her memory for what she remembered, and that is...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's correct.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: ... whether she remember nothing, or whether she remembered an inappropriate, intimate relationship?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, no, no, no, no. No, I didn't ask her about it that way. I asked her about what the -- what I was trying to determine was whether my recollection was right because she was always in the office complex when Monica was there, and whether she thought she could hear any conversations we had or did she hear any.
And then I asked her specifically about a couple of times when --once when I asked her to remain in the dining room -- Betty -- while I met with Monica in my study, and once when I took Monica into the small office Nancy Hernreich occupies right next to Betty's and talked to her there for a few minutes. That's my recollection of that. I was trying to -- I knew, Mr. Bittman, to a reasonable certainty that I was going to asked more questions about this.
I didn't really expect you to be in the Jones case at the time. I thought what would happen is that it would break in the press and I was trying to get the facts down. I was trying to understand what the facts were.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Ms. Currie testified that these were not really questions to her, that they were more like statements. Is that not the truth?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I can't testify as to what her perception was. I can tell you this. I was trying to get information in a hurry. I was downloading what I remembered. I think Ms. Currie would also testify that I explicitly told her, once I realized that you were involved in the Jones case, you were with the office of independent counsel and that she might have to be called as witness, that she should go in there and tell the truth, tell what she knew and be perfectly truthful.
So I was not trying to get Betty Currie to say something that was untruthful. I was trying to get as much information as quickly as I could.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: What information were you trying to get from her when you said, "I was never alone with her, right?"
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember exactly what I did say with her. That's what you say I said.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: If Ms. Currie testified to that -- that she says you told her, "I was never alone with her, right?"
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I was never alone with her...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Did you not say that, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Bittman, just a minute. "I was never alone with her, right?" might be a question. And what I might have meant by that is, "In the Oval Office complex."
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: But you knew the answer...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Could -- we've been going for more than an hour, would you mind if we take a break? I need to go to the restroom.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: 2:38.
(BREAK)
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, I want to go into a new subject area, briefly go over something you were talking about with Mr. Bittman.
The statement of your attorney, Mr. Bennett, at the Paula Jones deposition -- counsel is fully aware -- it's page 54, line 5. Counsel is fully aware that Ms. Lewinsky is filing, has an affidavit, which they were in possession of, saying that there was absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton. That statement was made by your attorney in front of Judge Susan Webber Wright.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's correct.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Your -- that statement is a completely false statement. Whether or not Mr. Bennett knew of your relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, the statement that there was no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton was an utterly false statement. Is that correct?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: It depends upon what the meaning of the word is means. If is means is, and never has been, that's one thing. If it means, there is none, that was a completely true statement.
But as I have testified -- I'd like to testify again -- this is -- it somewhat unusual for a client to be asked about his lawyer's statements instead of the other way around. I was not paying a great deal of attention to this exchange. I was focusing on my own testimony. And that if you go back and look at the sequence of events, you will see that the Jones' lawyers decided that this was going to be the Lewinsky deposition, not the Jones deposition. And given the facts of their case, I can understand why they made that decision.
But that is not how I prepared for it. That is not how I was thinking about it.
And I am not sure, Mr. Wisenberg, as I sit here today that I sat there and followed all these interchanges between the lawyers. I'm quite sure that I didn't follow all the interchanges between the lawyers all that carefully. And I don't really believe, therefore, that I can say Mr. Bennett's testimony or statement is testimony that is impugnable to me. I didn't -- I don't know that I was really paying that much attention to him.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You've told us you were very well-prepared for the deposition.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, I said I was very well prepared to talk about Paula Jones and to talk about Kathleen Willey, because she had made a related charge. She was the only person that I think I was asked about who had anything to do with the -- anything that would remotely approximate sexual harassment. The rest of this it looked to me like it was more of a way to harass me.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You're the president of the United States, and your attorney counseled the United States District Court judge that there's no sex of any kind or any way, shape or form whatsoever. And you feel no obligation to do anything about that at that deposition, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I had told you, Mr. Wisenberg -- I will tell you for a third time -- I am not even sure that when Mr. Bennett made that statement that I was concentrating on the exact words he used. Now, someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky -- that is ask me a question in the present tense -- I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Was Mr. Bennett aware of this tense-based distinction you were making?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't -- I don't...
DAVID KENDALL: I'm going to object to any questions about communications with private counsel.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Well, the witness has already testified, I think, that Mr. Bennett didn't know about the inappropriate relationship with Ms. Lewinsky. I guess...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, you'll have to ask him. You know, he was not a sworn witness, and I was not paying that close attention to what he was saying. I've told you that repeatedly.
I was -- I don't -- I never even focused on that until I read it in this transcript in preparation for this testimony.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: When I was in there, I didn't think about my lawyers. I was only thinking about myself and my testimony and trying to answer the questions.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Do you mean today that because you were not engaging in sexual activity with Ms. Lewinsky during the deposition that the statement Mr. Bennett made (OFF-MIKE)?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. I mean that at the time of the deposition, we had been -- that was well-beyond any point of improper contact between me and Ms. Lewinsky. So that anyone generally speaking in the present tense saying that was not an improper relationship would be telling the truth if that person said there was not, in the present tense --the present tense encompassing many months. That's what I meant by that -- not that I was -- I wasn't trying to give you a cute answer to that.
I was obviously not involved in anything improper during the deposition. I was trying to tell you that, generally speaking in the present tense, if someone said that, that would be true.
But I don't know what Mr. Bennett had in his mind. I don't know -- I didn't pay attention to this colloquy that went on. I was waiting for my instructions as a witness to go forward. I was worried about my own testimony.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I want to go back to some questions about Mr. Jordan and touch a little bit on the December 19th meeting and some others. Mr. Jordan is a longtime friend of yours, is that correct, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir. We've been friends probably 20 years, maybe more.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You said you consider him to be a truthful person, correct?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: If Mr. Jordan has told us that he visited you in the residence on the night of the 19th after a White House holiday dinner to discuss Monica Lewinsky and her subpoena, would you have any reason to doubt it?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No. I've never known him to say anything that wasn't true. And his memory of these events, I think, would be better than mine, because I had a lot of other things going on.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: We have WAVE records that will show that. But in the interest of time, I'm not going to -- since you don't dispute that, I'm not going to show them right now.
And in fact, that was the very day Monica Lewinsky was subpoenaed, wasn't it? That that's the night that he came to see you?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't have independent memory of that, but you would probably know that. I mean, I'm sure there's a record of when she got her subpoena.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: If Mr. Jordan has told us that he spoke with you over the phone within about an hour of Monica receiving her subpoena and later visited you that very day -- night at the White House to discuss it, again, you'd have no reason to doubt him, is that correct?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I believe I've already testified about that here today. That I had a lots of conversations with Vernon. I am sure that I had lots of conversations with him that included comments about this. And if he has a specific memory of when I had some conversation on a certain day, I would be inclined to trust his memory over mine, because under the present circumstances, my head's probably more cluttered than his and my schedule's probably busier. He's probably got better records.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And when Mr. Jordan met with you at the residence that night, sir, he asked you if you had been involved in a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky, didn't he?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do not remember exactly what the nature of the conversation was. I do remember that I told him -- excuse me -- that I told him that there was no sexual relationship between me and Monica Lewinsky, which was true. And that -- then all I remember for the most (ph) is that he said he had referred her to a lawyer. And I believe it was Mr. Carter, and I don't believe I've ever met Mr. Carter. I don't think I know him.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, if Mr. Jordan has told us that he had a very disturbing conversation with Ms. Lewinsky that day, then went over to visit you at the White House, and that before he asked you the question about sexual relationship, related that disturbing conversation to you, the conversation being that Ms. Lewinsky had a fixation on you and thought that perhaps the first lady would leave you at the end of the -- that you would leave the first lady at the end of your term and come be with Ms. Lewinsky, you'd have no reason to doubt him that it was on that night that that conversation happened?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: All I can tell you, sir, is I certainly don't remember him saying that. Now, he could have said that, because, as you know, a great many things happened in the ensuing two or three days. And I could have just forgotten it. But I don't remember him ever saying that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: At any time?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No. I don't remember him saying that. What I remember was that he said that Monica came to see him, that she was upset that she was going to have to testify, that he had referred her to a lawyer.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: In fact, she was very distraught about the subpoena, according to Mr. Jordan, wasn't she?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, he said she was upset about it. I remember that -- I don't remember any -- at any time when he said this other thing you just quoted me. I'm sorry. I just don't remember that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: That is something that one would be likely to remember, don't you think, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think I would, and I'd be happy to share it with you if I did. I only had one encounter with Ms. Lewinsky, I seem to remember, which was somewhat maybe reminiscent of that, but not that, if you will, obsessive, if that's the way you want to use that word.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Do you recall him at all telling you that he was concerned about her fascination with you, even if you don't remember the specific conversation about you leaving the first lady?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I recall him saying he thought that she was upset with -- somewhat fixated on me. But she acknowledged that she was not having a sexual relationship with me and that she did not want to be drug into the Jones lawsuit. That's what I recall.
And I recall his getting -- saying that he had recommended a lawyer to her and she had gone to see the lawyer. That's what I recall.
I don't remember the other thing you mentioned. I just -- I might well remember it if he had said it. Maybe he said it and I've forgotten it. But I don't -- I can't tell you that I remember that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, you swore under oath in the Jones case that you didn't think anyone other than your lawyers had ever told you that Monica Lewinsky had been subpoenaed. Page 68, line 22, through page 69, line three. Here's the testimony, sir.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: "We've gone over it a little bit before. Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you that Monica Lewinsky had been served with a subpoena in the case?"
Answer: "I don't think so."
Now this deposition was taken just 3½ weeks after, by your own testimony, Vernon Jordan made a trip at night to the White House to tell you, among other things, that Monica Lewinsky had been subpoenaed and was upset about it. Why did you give that testimony under oath in the Jones case, sir?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, Mr. Wisenberg, I think you have to -- again, you have to put this in the context of the flow of questions, and I've already testified to this once today. I will testify to it again.
My answer to the next question, I think, is a way of finishing my answer to the question and the answer you've said there. I was trying to remember who the first person, other than Mr. Bennett -- I don't think Mr. Bennett -- who the first person told me that -- who told me Paula Jones had -- I mean, excuse me, Monica Lewinsky had a subpoena.
And I thought that Bruce Lindsey was the first person and that's how I was trying to remember that. Keep in mind, sort of like today, these questions are very -- kind of put at me rapid fire. But unlike today, I hadn't had the opportunity to prepare at this level of detail.
I didn't -- I was trying to keep a lot of things in my head that I had remembered with regard to the Paula Jones case and the Kathleen Willey matter, because I knew I would be asked about them. And I gave the best answers I could.
Several of my answers are somewhat jumbled. But this is an honest attempt here -- if you read both these answers, it's obvious they're both answers to that question you quoted -- to remember the first person who was not Mr. Bennett, who told me. And I don't believe Vernon was the first person who told me. I believe Bruce Lindsey was.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Let me read the question because I want to talk about the first-person issue. The question on line 25 of page 68 is "Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you that Monica Lewinsky had been served with a subpoena in this case?"
Answer: "I don't think so."
You agree with me, sir, that the question doesn't say -- the question doesn't say anything about who was the first person? It just says, did anyone tell you?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Isn't that correct?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's right, and I said Bruce Lindsey because I was trying to struggle with who -- at where I had heard this. And they were free to ask a follow-up question. And they didn't.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Mr. President, 3.5 weeks before, Mr. Jordan had made a special trip to the White House to tell you Ms. Lewinsky had been subpoenaed; she was distraught; she had a fixation over you. And you couldn't remember that 3.5 weeks later?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, if they had access to all this information from their conversations with Linda Tripp, if that was the basis of it, they were free to ask me more questions. They may have been trying to trick me.
Now, they knew more about the details of my relationship with Monica Lewinsky -- I'm not sure everything they knew was true because I don't know. I've not heard these tapes or anything. But they knew a lot more than I did. And instead of trying to trick me, what they should have done is to ask me specific questions. And I -- I invited them on more than one occasion to ask follow-up questions.
This is the third or fourth time that you seem to be complaining that I did not do all their work for them, that just sitting here answering these questions to the best of my memory with limited preparation was not enough, that I should have actually been doing all their work for them.
Now, they had been up all night with Linda Tripp, who had betrayed her friend Monica Lewinsky, stabbed her in the back, and given them all this information.
They could have helped more. If they wanted to ask me follow-up questions, they could. They didn't. I'm sorry. I did the best I could.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Can you tell the grand jury what is tricky about the question? Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, there is nothing. I'm just telling you. I have explained, and I will now explain for the third time, sir.
I was being asked a number of questions here. I was struggling to remember them. There were lots of things that had gone on during this time period that had nothing to do with Monica Lewinsky. You know, I -- I believed then -- I believe now, that Monica Lewinsky could have sworn out an honest affidavit that, under reasonable circumstances, and without the benefit of what Linda Tripp did to her, would have given her a chance not to be a witness in this case.
So I didn't have perfect memory of all these events that have now, in the last seven months, since Ms. Lewinsky was kept for several hours by four or five of your lawyers, and four or five FBI agents, as if she were a serious felon -- these things have become the most important matters in the world.
At the moment they were occurring, many other things were going on. I honestly tried to remember when -- you know, if somebody asks you, "Has anybody ever talked to you about this?" You normally think -- Well, where was the first time I heard that. That's all I was trying to do here. I was not trying to say not Vernon Jordan, but Bruce Lindsey. Everybody knows Vernon Jordan is a friend of mine.
I probably would have talked to Vernon Jordan about the Monica Lewinsky problem if he had never been involved in it. So I was not trying to mislead them. I was trying to answer this question with the first person who told me that. Now, I realize that wasn't the specific question. They were free to ask follow-ups just like you're asking follow-ups today.
And I can't explain why I didn't answer every question in the way you seem to think I should have. And I certainly can't explain why they didn't ask what seemed to me to be logical follow-ups, especially since they spent all that time with Linda Tripp the night before.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You've told us that you understand your obligation, then as it is now, is to tell the whole truth, sir. You recall that?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I took the oath here.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: If Vernon Jordan...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: You even read me a definition of the oath.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: If Vernon Jordan has told us that you have an extraordinary memory, one of the greatest memories he has ever seen in a politician, would that be something you would care to dispute?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No. I do have a good memory. At least I have had a good memory in my life.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You understand that if you answered, "I don't think so," to the question "Has anyone other than your attorneys told you that Monica Lewinsky has been served with a subpoena in this case?" and if you answered, "I don't think so," but you really knew Vernon Jordan had been telling you all about it, you understand that that would be a false statement, presumably perjurious.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, I have testified about this three times. Now, I will do it the fourth time. I am not going to answer your trick questions.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: And people don't always hear the same questions in the same way. They don't always answer them in the same way. I was so concerned about the question they asked me that the next question I was asked, I went back to the previous question trying to give an honest answer about the first time I heard about the Lewinsky subpoena.
I -- look, I could have had no reasonable expectation that anyone would ever know that, or excuse me, not know if this thing would be --but I would talk to Vernon Jordan about nearly everything. I was not interested in -- if the implication of your question is that somehow I didn't want anybody to know I had ever talked to Vernon Jordan about this, that's just not so.
It's also -- if I could say one thing about my memory -- I have been blessed and advantaged in my life with a good memory. I have been shocked and so have members of my family and friends of mine at how many things that I have forgotten in the last six years -- I think because of the pressure and the pace and the volume of events in a president's life, compounded by the pressure of your four-year inquiry, and all the other things that have happened.
I'm amazed -- there are lots of times when I literally can't remember last week. If you ask me -- Did you talk to Vernon -- when is the last time you talked to Vernon Jordan? What time of day was it? When did you see him? What did you say? My answer was -- the last, you know, if you answered -- When is the last time you saw a friend of yours in California? If you ask me a lot of questions like that, my memory is not what it was when I came here because my life is so crowded.
And now that -- as I said -- you have made this the most important issue in America. I mean, you have made it the most important issue in America from your point of view. At the time this was occurring, even though I was concerned about it, and I hoped she didn't have to testify, and I hoped this wouldn't come out, I felt --I will say again -- that she could honestly fill out an affidavit that in -- under reasonable circumstances would relieve her of the burden of testifying.
And I'm not trying to exclude the fact that I talked to Vernon here. I just -- all I can tell you is, I believe this answer reflects I was trying to remember the first person who told me, who was not Mr. Bennett. And I believe it was Bruce Lindsey.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: As you yourself recall, just recalled, Mr. President, Vernon Jordan not only discussed the subpoena with you that night but discussed Frank Carter, the lawyer he had gotten for Ms. Lewinsky. And also, Mr. Jordan discussed with you over the next few weeks, after the 19th of December, the -- in addition to the job aspects of Ms. Lewinsky's job, he discussed with you her affidavit that she was preparing in the case. Is that correct, sir?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believe that he did notify us, I think, when she signed her affidavit. I have a memory of that. Or he -- seems like he said that she had signed her affidavit.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: If he told us that he notified you around January 7, when she signed her affidavit that you generally understood that it would deny a sexual relationship, do you have any reason to doubt that?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: So that's the affidavit, the lawyer and the subpoena. And yet when you were asked, sir, at the Jones deposition about Vernon Jordan, and specifically about whether or not he had discussed the lawsuit with you, you didn't reveal that to the court. I want to refer you to page 72, line 16, is where this starts. It's going to go down, it might go down some what.
Line 16.
"INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Has it ever been reported to you that he..."
... and that's referring to Mr. Jordan...
At line 12 you were asked: "Do you know a man named Vernon Jordan?"
Your answer: "I know him well."
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Going down to 6(d) (ph) -- "Has it ever been reported to you that he met with Monica Lewinsky and talked about this case?"
This is your answer, or a portion of it.
"I knew that he met with her. I think we suggested that he meet with her. Anyway, he met with her. I thought that he talked to her about something else."
Why didn't you tell the court when you were under oath, and sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that she had been talking with Vernon Jordan about the case, about the affidavit from the lawyer, the subpoena?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, that's not the question I was asked. I was not asked any question about -- I was asked "Has it ever been reported to you that he met with Monica Lewinsky and talked about this case?"
I believe -- I may be wrong about this -- my impression was that at the time -- I was focused on the meetings. I believe the meetings we had were meetings about her moving to New York and getting a job.
I knew at some point that she had told him that she needed some help because she had gotten a subpoena. I'm not sure I know whether she did that in a meeting or a phone call. And I was not focused on that.
I know Vernon helped her to get a lawyer, Mr. Carter. And I believe that he did it after she had called him, but I'm not sure. But I knew that the main source of their meetings was about her moving to New York and her getting a job.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Are you saying, sir, that you forgot when you were asked this question that Vernon Jordan had come on December 19th, just 3½ weeks before, and said that he'd met that day, the day that Monica got the subpoena?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: It's quite -- this is sort of a jumbled answer. It's quite possible that I had gotten mixed up between whether she had met with him or talked to him on the telephone in those 3½ weeks.
Again, I say, sir -- just from the tone of your voice and the way you're asking questions here -- it's obvious that this is the most important thing in the world and that everybody was focused on all the details at the time. But that's not the way it was.
I was doing my best to remember. Now, keep in mind, I don't know if this is true, but the news reports are that Linda Tripp talked to you, then went and talked to the Jones lawyers, and you know, that she prepared them for this.
Now, maybe -- you seem to be criticizing me because they didn't ask better questions, and -- as if you didn't prepare them well enough to sort of set me up or something. I don't know what's going on here.
All I can tell you is I didn't remember all the details of all this. I didn't remember what -- when Vernon talked to me about Monica Lewinsky, where she talked to him on the telephone or had a meeting, I didn't remember all those details.
I was focused on the fact that Monica went to meet with Vernon after Betty helped him set it up and had subsequent meetings to talk about her move to New York.
Now, keep in mind at this time, at this time, until this date here -- when it's obvious that something funny is going here and there's some sort of a "gotcha" game at work in this deposition, until this date, I didn't know that Ms. Lewinsky's deposition wasn't going to be sufficient for her to avoid testifying. I didn't -- you know, so all these details...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: (OFF-MIKE). You mean her affidavit?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Excuse me. I'm sorry. Her affidavit -- thank you.
So I don't necessarily remember all the details of all these questions you're asking me because there was a lot of other things going on. And at the time they were going on, until all this came out, this was not the most important thing in my life. This was just another thing in my life.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: But Vernon Jordan met with you, sir, and he reported that he had met with Monica Lewinsky. And the discussion was about the lawsuit, and you didn't inform under oath the court of that in your deposition.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I gave the best answer I could based on the best memory I had at the time they asked me the question. That's the only answer I can give you, sir.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: And I think I may have been confused in my memory because I've also talked to him on the phone about what he said about whether he talked to her or met with her. That's all I can tell you.
But let me say again, I don't have the same view about this deposition -- I mean, this affidavit that I think you do.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I felt very strongly that Ms. Lewinsky and everybody else that didn't know anything about Paula Jones and anything about sexual harassment, that she and others were themselves being harassed for political purposes in the hope of getting damaging information that the Jones' lawyers could unlawfully leak.
Now, I believed then, I believe today that she could execute an affidavit which, under reasonable circumstances -- with fair-minded, nonpolitically oriented people -- would result in her being relieved of the burden to be put through the kind of testimony that thanks to Linda Tripp's work with you and with the Jones' lawyers she would have been put through.
I don't think that's dishonest. I don't think that's illegal. I think what they were trying to do to her and all these other people who knew nothing about sexual harassment was outrageous -- just so they could hurt me politically.
So I just don't have the same attitude about this you do.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Well, you're not telling our grand jurors that you think the case was a political case for a setup, Mr. President, that that would give you the right to commit perjury...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. No, sir. In the face of their -- the Jones' lawyers -- the people that were questioning me, in the face of their illegal leaks, their constant unrelenting illegal leaks, in a lawsuit that I knew -- and that by the time that this deposition and this discovery started, they knew -- was a bogus suit on the law and a bogus suit on the facts.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: The question...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: In the fact of that, I knew that in the face of their illegal activity, I still had to behave lawfully. But I wanted to be legal without being particularly helpful. I thought that was what I was trying to do.
And this is the -- you're the first person to ever suggest to me that I should have been doing their lawyers work for them when they were perfectly free to ask follow-up questions.
On one or two occasions, Mr. Bennett invited them to ask follow-up questions.
It now appears to me they didn't because they were afraid I would give them a truthful answer, and that there had been some communication between you and Ms. Tripp and them. And they were trying to set me up and trick me.
And now you seem to be complaining that they didn't do a good enough job. I did my best, sir, at this time. I did not know what I now know about this.
A lot of other things were going on in my life.
Did I want this to come out? No. Was I embarrassed about it? Yes. Did I ask her to lie about it? No. Did I believe there could be a truthful affidavit? Absolutely.
Now that's all I know to say about this. I will continue to answer your questions as best I can.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You're not going back on your earlier statement that you understood you were sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the folks at that deposition, are you, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, but I think we might as well put this out on the table. You tried to get me to give a broader interpretation to my oath than just my obligation to tell the truth. In other words, you tried to say even though these people were treating you in an illegal manner and illegally leaking these depositions, you should be a good lawyer for them. And if they don't have enough sense to ask a question, and even if Mr. Bennett invited them to ask follow-up questions, if they didn't do it, you should have done all their work for them.
So I will admit this, sir. My goal in this deposition was to be truthful, but not particularly helpful. I did not wish to do the work of the Jones' lawyers. I deplored what they were doing. I deplored the innocent people they were tormenting and traumatizing. I deplored their illegal leaking. I deplored the fact that they knew -- once they knew our evidence, that this was a bogus lawsuit, and that because of the funding they had from my political enemies, they were putting ahead.
I deplored it. But I was determined to walk through the mine field of this deposition without violating the law. And I believe I did.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You're not saying, are you, Mr. President, in terms of doing the work for the Jones' folks, the Jones' lawyers, that you could say as part of your not helping them, I don't know to a particular question when you really knew, and that it was up to them, even if you really knew the answer, it was up to them to do the follow-up -- that you kind of had a one free, I don't know?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: If I could finish up. I've been very patient, Mr. President, in letting you finish.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You didn't think you had a free shot to say, "I don't know" or "I don't recall," but when you really did know and you did recall, and it was just up to them, even if you weren't telling the truth, to do a follow-up and to catch you?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, I'm not saying that. And if I could give you one example. That's why I felt that I had to come back to that question when I said I don't know that and talk about Bruce Lindsey, because I was trying -- I was honestly trying -- to remember how I'd first heard this. I wasn't hung up about talking about this. All I'm saying is the -- it -- let me say something sympathetic to you.
I've been pretty tough, so let me say something sympathetic. All of you are intelligent people. You've worked hard on this. You've worked for a long time. You've gotten all the facts. You've seen a lot of evidence that I haven't seen.
And it's an embarrassing and personally painful thing, the truth about my relationship with Ms. Lewinsky. So the natural assumption is that while all this was going on, I must have been focused on nothing but this, therefore, I must remember everything about it in the sequence and form in which it occurred.
All I can tell you is I was concerned about it. I was glad she saw a lawyer. I was glad she was doing an affidavit.
But there were a lot of other things going on, and I don't necessarily remember it all. And I don't know if I can convince you of that.
But I tried to be honest with you about my mindset about this deposition, and I'm just trying to explain that I don't have the memory that you assume that I should about some of these things.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I want to talk to you for a bit, Mr. President, about the incident that happened at the northwest gate of the White House on December 5th. Sorry, December 6th, 1997. If you'll give me just a moment.
That was a -- let me ask you first, in early 19 -- in early December 1997, the Paula Jones case was pending, correct?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You were represented by Mr. Bennett, of course.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, that's correct.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: How...
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, I do. He was...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: How -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, no. Yes, he was representing me.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: How often did you talk to him or meet with him, if you can just recall, at that time of the litigation?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, we met, I would say -- I wish Mr. Ruff were answering this question instead of me. His memory would be better.
We met probably, oh -- for a long time, we didn't meet all that often, maybe once a month. And then the closer we got to the deposition, we would meet more frequently. So maybe by this time we were meeting more.
We also -- there was a period when we had been approached about...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: The question only goes to the number of meetings and not the content of (OFF-MIKE).
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I understand. We're not talking about the content. There was a period in which we, I think back in the summer before this, when we had met more frequently. But I would say normally once a month. Sometimes something would be happening; we'd meet more. And then, as we moved toward the deposition, we would begin to meet more.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: The witness list came out on December 5th of 1997 with Monica Lewinsky's name on it. Mr. President, when did you find out that Monica's name was on that witness list?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believe that I found out late in the afternoon on the 6th. That's what I believe.
I've tried to remember with great precision, and because I thought you would ask me about this day, I tried to remember the logical question, which is whether I knew it on the 6th, and if so, at what time. I don't -- I had a meeting in the late afternoon on the 5th -- on the 6th. Excuse me, on the 6th. And I believe that's when I learned about it.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Now, on the morning of the 6th, Monica Lewinsky came to the northwest gate and found out that you were being visited by Eleanor Mondale at the time and had an extremely angry reaction. You know that, sir, don't you?
PRESIDENT PRESIDENT CLINTON: I have -- I have -- I know that Monica Lewinsky came to the gate on the 6th, and apparently directly called in and wanted to see me and couldn't, and was angry about it. normally once a month. Sometimes something would be happening; we'd meet more. And then, as we moved toward the deposition, we would begin to meet more.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: The witness list came out on December 5th of 1997 with Monica Lewinsky's name on it. Mr. President, when did you find out that Monica's name was on that witness list?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believe that I found out late in the afternoon on the 6th. That's what I believe. I've tried to remember with great precision, and because I thought you would ask me about this day, I tried to remember the logical question, which is whether I knew it on the 6th, and if so, at what time. I don't -- I had a meeting in the late afternoon on the 5th -- on the 6th. Excuse me, on the 6th. And I believe that's when I learned about it.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Now, on the morning of the 6th, Monica Lewinsky came to the northwest gate and found out that you were being visited by Eleanor Mondale at the time and had an extremely angry reaction. You know that, sir, don't you?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I have -- I have -- I know that Monica Lewinsky came to the gate on the 6th, and apparently directly called in and wanted to see me and couldn't, and was angry about it. Ms. Lewinsky had overheard that you were in the Oval Office with a visitor on that day -- isn't that correct, that you and Mrs. Currie were very irate about that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I don't remember all that. What I remember is that she was very -- Monica was very upset. She got upset from time to time. And -- and I was, you know -- I couldn't see her. I had -- I was doing, as I remember -- I had some other work to do that morning, and she had just sort of showed up and wanted to be let in and wanted to come in at a certain time. And she wanted everything to be that way. And we couldn't see her.
Now, I did arrange to see her later that day. And I was upset about her conduct.
I'm not sure I knew or focused on, at that moment, exactly the question you asked. I remember I was -- I thought her conduct was inappropriate that day.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I want to go back, and I want to take them one at a time.
No. 1, did you find out at some point during that day that Monica had overheard from somebody in the Secret Service that you were meeting with Ms. Mondale and that Monica got very irate about that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I knew that at some point. I don't know whether I found out that, that day. I knew that they -- I knew that somehow she knew that among -- that -- that Eleanor Mondale was in to see us that day. I knew that. I don't know that I knew how she knew that on that day. I don't remember that.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: Pardon me. That leads into my second question, which is, weren't you irate at the Secret Service precisely because they had revealed this information to Ms. Lewinsky on that very day -- so irate that you told several people -- or at least one person -- that somebody should be fired over this, on that very day?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember whether it happened on that very day. But let me tell you that the uniformed Secret Service -- if that is in fact what happened, and I -- we'll stipulate that that is. But no one should be telling anybody, not anybody -- not a member of my staff -- who the president is meeting with. That's an inappropriate thing to do.
So I would think that if that in fact is what I heard when I heard it, I would have thought that was a bad thing. I don't know that I said that. I don't remember what I said, and I don't remember to whom I said it.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: It would be an inappropriate thing, sir. And that leads into my next question, is that why did Mrs. Currie, on your instructions, later that day tell many of the Secret Service officers involved that it never happened, to forget about it?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That what never happened?
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: The incident that you were so irate about earlier. The incident of somebody disclosing to Mrs. -- to Ms. Lewinsky that Ms. Mondale was in the Oval Office with you.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't know the answer to that. I think maybe -- you know -- I don't know. I know that...
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: You don't recall that you later gave orders to the effect that we're going to pretend this never happened...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: ... or something like that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. I don't recall that. First of all, I don't recall that I gave orders to fire anybody, if that was the implication of your first statement.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: It wasn't an implication. Actually, the question was that you initially wanted somebody fired. You were so mad that you wanted somebody fired.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember that, first of all. I remember thinking it was an inappropriate thing to do. And I remember -- as I usually do when I'm mad, I -- after a while, I wasn't so mad about it. And I'm quite aware that Ms. Lewinsky has a way of getting information out of people when she's either charming or determined. And it -- I could have just said, well, I'm not so mad about it anymore.
But I don't remember the whole sequence of events you're talking to me about now, except I do remember that somehow Monica found out Eleanor Mondale was there. And I learned either that day or later that one of the uniformed division personnel had told her. I thought then it was a mistake; I think now it was a mistake. I'm not sure it's a mistake someone should be terminated over. I think that, you know, you could just tell them not to do that anymore.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: In fact, it would kind of be an overreaction to get irate or terminate somebody for revealing to a former White House staffer who visits where the president is, don't you think, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, it would depend upon the facts. I think, on the whole, people in the uniformed Secret Service who are working on the gate have no business telling anybody anything about the president's schedule, just as a general principle. I didn't mind anybody knowing that she was there, if that's what you're saying. I could care less about that. But I think that the schedule itself -- these uniform people -- you know, somebody shouldn't just be able to come up on the street, and because they know who the Secret Service agent is, he says who the president's with. I don't think that's proper.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: I agree, Mr. President.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: But, on the other hand, I didn't -- you know, I wanted to know what happened. I think we found out what happened. And then they were, I think, told not to let it happen again, and I think that's the way it should have been handled. I think it was handled in the appropriate way.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: And you have no knowledge of the fact that Secret Service officers were told later in the day something to the effect of "This never happened; this event never happened; you have no knowledge of that"?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Sir, I'm not sure anybody ever told that to me. I mean, I thought you were asking -- let me just say my interpretation of this, of your previous question, was different than what you're asking now. What I remember was being upset that this matter would be discussed by anybody. It's incidental it happened to be Monica Lewinsky. And that whatever I said, I don't recall, but then thinking that the appropriate thing to do was to say, look, this is not an appropriate thing for you to be talking about, the president's schedule, and it shouldn't happen again.
Now the question you seem to be asking me now -- I just want to be sure I'm getting the right question -- is whether I gave instructions in effect to pretend that Monica Lewinsky was never at the gate.
INDEPENDENT COUNSEL LAWYER: To the effect of...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And if that is the question you're asking me, I don't believe I ever did that, sir. I certainly have no memory of doing that.
INDEPENDENT COUN
