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 MR.
SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator Kerry, a new question. Let's talk about
economic security.
You pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on
those making less than $200,000 a year, but the price of everything
is going up and we all know it. Health care costs, as you all have talking
about, is skyrocketing; the cost of the war. My question is, how can
you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge
without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of
the bills that we're running up to our children?
SEN. KERRY: I'll tell you exactly how I can do it: by reinstating what
President Bush took away, which is called pay-as-you-go. During the
1990s we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were going to pass something
in the Congress, you had to show where you were going to pay for it
and how. President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history
to do this. He's also the only president since -- in 72 years to lose
jobs, 1.6 million jobs lost. He's the only president to have incomes
of families go down for the last three years, the only president to
see exports to go down, the only president to see the lowest level of
business investment in our country, as it is today.
Now I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're going
to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. Every plan that
I have laid out -- my health care plan, my plan for education, my plan
for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly
how I'm going to pay for those. And we start -- we don't do it exclusively,
but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for
the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and
we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry commission, which identified some
$60 billion that we can get.
We shut the loophole, which has American workers actually subsidizing
the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole
in the last few days -- $43 billion dollars of giveaways, including
favors to the oil and gas industry and to people importing ceiling fans
from China.
I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker, and I'm going
to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the health
care, how we pay for the education. I have a manufacturing jobs credit.
We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the student
loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks.
This president has never once vetoed one bill. First president in 100
years not to do that.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President.
 PRESIDENT
BUSH: Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He's been a senator
for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to
reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being
a fiscal conservative or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted
277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers
$4.2 trillion.
He talks about PAYGO. I'll tell you what PAYGO means when you're a senator
from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy. PAYGO means
you pay and he goes ahead and spends. He's proposed $2.2 trillion of
new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a
tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by
our account -- billion -- $800 billion by his account. There is a tax
gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap. The middle class.
I proposed a detailed budget, Bob.
I sent up my budget man to the Congress and he says, here's how we're
going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth
policies that grow our economy, and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress.
 MR.
SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President -- two minutes
-- and let's continue on jobs. You know, there are all kind of statistics
out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President,
what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone
overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the
United States?
PRESIDENT BUSH: I say: Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our
economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help
for you to go get an education; here's some help for you to go to a
community college. We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want
to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of
the 21st century.
You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing
and we talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs
here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our
education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems, and
I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were
just shuffling too many kids through the system year after year, grade
after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said let's raise
the standards -- we're spending more money, but let's raise the standards
and measure early and solve problems now before it's too late.
You know, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education
is how to make sure this -- we've got a workforce that's productive
and competitive. You've got -- four more years, I've got more to do
to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers in school
districts that are working. They emphasize math and science in the classrooms.
To continue to expand Pell grants, to make sure that people have an
opportunity to start their career with a college diploma.
And so to the person you talked to, I say: Here's some help. Here's
some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go to a community
college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing
the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. And that's
that -- what we'd say to that person.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry?
 SEN.
KERRY: I want to you notice how the president switched away from jobs
and starting talking about education principally.
Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second,
if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. Being
lectured by the president on fiscal
responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about
law and order in this country. This president has taken a $5.6 trillion
surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health
care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent. Tuitions
have gone up 35 percent. Gasoline prices, up 30 percent. Medicare premiums
went up 17 percent a few days ago. Prescription drugs are up 12 percent
a year.
But guess what, America. The wages of Americans have gone down, the
jobs that are being created in Arizona right now paying about $13,700
less than the jobs that we're losing. And the president just walks on
by this problem.
The fact is that he's cut job training money. A billion dollars was
cut; they only added a little bit back this year 'cause it's an election
year. They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins Loans to help kids
be able to go to college. They've cut the training money. They've --
they've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even
extending health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going
to do those things because that's what's right in America, help workers
to transition in every respect.
MR. SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry. Two minutes, and
it's still on jobs.
You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much
control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does
the work of five people, that's progress; that's not the president's
fault. So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely
for this loss of jobs?
 SEN.
KERRY: I don't blame them entirely for it. I blame the president for
the things the president could do that has an impact on it.
Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls
across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, "Will
you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" And
I've looked him in the eye and I've said no. I can't do that.
What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair
as possible; that I will, for instance, make certain that, with respect
to the tax system, that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing
the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, you actually
get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your taxes. So if
you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey,
I do better overseas than I do here in America." That's not smart.
I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job,
and when I'm president we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond.
And we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America
for all corporations 5 percent, and we're going to have a manufacturing
jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able
to hire here.
The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field.
This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating
international rules with subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the
course of this campaign, after I'd been talking about it for months.
The fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take
on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that wanted
to petition the administration. They were told don't even bother, we're
not going to listen to it.
The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't
stood up and fought for. I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing
field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker
just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker
wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus we need fiscal
discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President.
PRESIDENT
BUSH: Whew! Let me start with the Pell grants. In his last litany of
-- of misstatements, he said we cut Pell grants. We've increased Pell
grants by a million students. That's a fact.
You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers. You've
got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed
and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit.
That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced the marriage
penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage.
We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower income Americans. A family
of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. It's your
money.
The way my opponent talks, he said we're going to spend the government's
money. No, we're spending your money. And when you have more money in
your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. I believe
the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to
help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their
lives.
My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States
Senate does not match his rhetoric. He voted to increase taxes 98 times
and to bust the budget 277 times.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry?
 SEN.
KERRY: Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that.
I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with
my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into
law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted
for small business tax cuts.
But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? Because
more people qualify for them because they don't have money. But they're
not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting
less money. There are more people who qualify. That's not what we want.
PRESIDENT BUSH: Senator, no one is playing with your votes. You voted
to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted to -- when they proposed
reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. He voted to violate
the budget caps 277 times.
You -- you know, there's a mainstream in American politics and you sit
right on the far left bank. As a matter of fact, your record is such
that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts.
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