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MR. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question. For you, Senator Kerry.
Two minutes.
Affirmative action. Do you see a need for affirmative action programs,
or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to use race
and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts
and so on?
 SEN.
KERRY: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And
I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that
could help us move further along. I'll give you an example.
I served on the small business committee for a long time. I was chairman
of it once; now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know,
we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs to try to encourage
ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even
fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them.
The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination.
And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people
of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also
is with respect to women. It's with respect to other efforts to try
to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a
long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's happened -- we've
made progress; I want to say that at the same time.
During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over
affirmative action, and there were many people, like myself, who opposed
quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we
had a policy called "mend it, don't end it." We fixed it.
And we fixed it for a reason: because there are too many people still
in this country who feel the -- the -- the stark resistance of racism.
And so we have a distance to travel. As president, I will make certain
we travel it.
Now let me -- let me just share something. This president is the first
president ever, I think, not to -- not to meet with the NAACP. This
is a president who hasn't met with the black congressional caucus. This
is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our
country. If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be
inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that
as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it.
 MR.
SCHIEFFER: Mr. President?
PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, first of all, it's -- it is just not true that
I haven't met with the black congressional caucus. I met with the black
congressional caucus at the White House.
And secondly, like my opponent, I -- I -- I don't agree we ought to
have quotas. I agree we shouldn't have quotas.
But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated;
to make sure when they get out of high school, there's Pell grants available
for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell grants by a
million students. Do you realize today in America we spend $73 billion
to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college?
That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child
learns to read, write, add and subtract early; to be able build on that
education by going to college, so they can start their careers with
a college diploma.
I believe the best -- best way to help our small businesses is not only
through small business loans, which we have increased since I've been
the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts
so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to
help get their business going. Minority ownership of businesses are
up because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit
to be strong.
I said I believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody
owns something. Today in America, more minorities own a home than ever
before, and that's hopeful and that's positive.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's go to a new question.
You were asked before the invasion -- or after the invasion of Iraq
if you had checked with your dad. And I believe -- I don't remember
the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher
authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on
your policy decisions?
 PRESIDENT
BUSH: First, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life. And that's
-- when I was answering that question, what I was really saying to the
person was that I pray a lot, and I do. And my faith is a very -- it's
very personal. I pray for strength, I pray for wisdom, I pray for our
troops in harm's way, I pray for my family, I pray for my little girls.
But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want
to, or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship an Almighty
and if you choose not to. If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're
equally an American. That's the great thing about America, is the right
to worship the way you see fit.
Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of
the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family
all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, "Well, how
do you know?" I said, "I just feel it."
Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on
anybody else. But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the
principles are derived from who I am. I believe we ought to love our
neighbor like we love ourself. That's manifested in public policy through
the Faith-based Initiative, where we've unleased the armies of compassion
to help heal people who hurt.
I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe.
And that's one of -- part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe
that the freedom there is a gift from the
Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on
the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part
of me and religion is a part of me.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry?
 SEN.
KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said, and certainly
respect his faith. I think it's important, and I share it. I think that
he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. Everything is
a gift from the Almighty. And as I measure the words of the Bible --
and we all do -- different people measure different things -- the Koran,
the Tora, or you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other
day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being,
and people all find their ways to express it.
I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the
two greatest commandments are love the Lord your God with all your mind,
your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly,
I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country
and on this planet.
We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of
America. There's one for the people who have and there's one for the
people who don't have, and we're struggling with that today. The president
and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of
our faith. I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works,
and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more work
to do. And as president, I will always respect everybody's right to
practice religion as they choose, or not to practice, because that's
part of America.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question
for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never
seen it come together since World War II. But some of that seems to
have melted away.
I think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because
of the political season. But if you are elected president or whoever
is elected president, will you set a priority on trying to bring the
nation back together, or what would be your attitude on that?
 SEN.
KERRY: Oh, very much so.
Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may. I think -- in those
days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job, and I really
was moved as well as impressed by the speech that he gave to the Congress.
And I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as
genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans; we were
all just Americans. That's where we were.
That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the president, who
called himself "a uniter, not a divider," is now presiding
over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've
never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United
States. I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the
way they're locked out today. We have to change that, and as president
I am committed to changing that.
You know, I -- I -- I don't care if the idea comes from the other side
or this side; I think we have to come together and work to change it,
and I've done that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've
worked with John McCain, who's sitting here. I've worked with other
colleagues. I've reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common
ground because that's what makes us strong as Americans. And if Americans
trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you we will have the most
significant effort -- openly, not secret meetings in the White House
with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people
aside, but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities
by bringing people together.
And one of the ways we're going to do it is I'm going to work with my
friend John McCain to further campaign finance reform so we get these
incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average
people so America is really represented by the people who make up America.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President?
 PRESIDENT
BUSH: My biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town
is. I had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the
governor of Texas, and I was hopeful to be able to do the same thing.
And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly
enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like
Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve
the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to
make sure this economy continues to grow. But Washington is a tough
town.
And the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests
there -- people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another,
and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators
to tout their way or different congressmen to, you know, talk about
their issue. And they dig in.
I'll continue in the four years to continue to try to work to do --
but my opponent said this is a, you know, bitterly divided time. Pretty
divided in the 2000 election. So in other words -- it's pretty divided
during the 1990s as well. We're just in a period, and we've got to work
to bring it out.
My opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did. John
McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right
view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq,
and my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq.
MR. SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred
to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something.
All three of us are surrounded by very strong women.
PRESIDENT BUSH: That's right.
 MR.
SCHIEFFER: We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters
that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most
important thing
you've learned from these strong women?
PRESIDENT BUSH: To listen to them. To stand up straight and not scowl.
I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love
my wife and our daughters. I am -- you know, it's really interesting.
I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry
me she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech."
I said, "Okay, you got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold
me to that deal, and she's out campaigning, along with our girls. And
she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand
what she's saying. But they see a compassionate, strong, great first
lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am.
When I met her in the backyard of Joe and Jan O'Neill in Midland, Texas,
it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, "Come on over.
I think you'll find somebody who might interest you." So I said,
"All right," bopped over there. There was only four of us
there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you could say it was
love at first sight.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry?
SEN. KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples
of lucky people who married up.
PRESIDENT BUSH: Right.
SEN. KERRY: And some would say maybe me more so than others. But I can
take it.
Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you
didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago and just
before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went
in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she
looked at me from her hospital bed, and she just looked at me, and she
said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are
the three words that she left me with.
And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that
sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around.
They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can
sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that.
And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed. As I said last
time, I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal,
and his daughters. He's agreat father. And I think we're both very lucky.
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