Hillary Rodham Clinton, former first lady

RICKI GREEN: You and your husband had an ongoing political partnership when you came to the White House. What were your expectations at the time about what you thought that you were able - going to be able to do in that respect in his administration, and what kind of limitations were you aware … of as far as the role of the first lady?

First impressions of Washington

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Well, when Bill was campaigning for president in 1992, he had been governor of Arkansas for 12 years. And during that time, I played a very active role in helping to reform education and expanding health care. I chaired commissions to do both. I testified before the Arkansas legislature. I traveled the state to drum up support for some of his legislative initiatives.

And I assumed that what we had done in Arkansas would be appropriate in Washington, and I was surprised to find out that Washington was more conservative than Arkansas when it came to the role and responsibilities of the person who was married to the chief executive; because when Bill asked me to work on health care in his administration, he did it based on our previous experience in Arkansas and his belief that it would both demonstrate a very strong personal commitment on his behalf and help to avoid some of the bureaucratic infighting and turf protecting that goes on in any government.

To our surprise, it was a firestorm that people were really upset and concerned about. Now, historically, there had always been very influential and even powerful first ladies who had played major roles in their husband's administration, had championed initiatives, had made decisions, had read speeches and correspondence; but that had always been behind the scenes.

And when the Smithsonian, pretty much at the same time that Bill was inaugurated, started a new exhibition about first ladies that included more than just their gowns, but instead talked about their personal, political and public roles, they received a torrent of criticism; because since we had not been taught that in school, or been really exposed to it historically, the Smithsonian was asked, "Well, why are you doing that? Just because Hillary Clinton is going to be first lady?"

And they were surprised; because, of course, it's always been part of our history that each woman would try to carve out that role to suit her own understanding of how best to help her husband and serve her country and fulfill herself.

Making decisions as first lady

RICKI GREEN: So, how, how did you adjust to -- ahem -- to the, both the criticism and to -- then seeing how you could do what the kinds of things you wanted to do within the limitations of the first lady role?

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Well, it's a learning experience, and I think it is for anyone, because there isn't guidebook or formula for being first lady. It is totally dependent upon who the president is and who the particular first lady happens to be.

So, I learned from both the mistakes and the misunderstandings that seemed to affect people's response to my work on health care and continued to work very hard on health care and welfare reform, on reforming the foster care system, on being involved in a wealth of issues -- but doing it in a way that, you know, was more traditional; because I continued to be very involved in the decision making in the White House in every realm, but the president didn't name me to something, which he thought was actually a more transparent and open way to go about doing what every pe- -- everybody had done before. But we just did what we thought needed to be done in order to do the business of the country and to pursue the agenda that he had for the country.

RICKI GREEN: Well, I think one of the people in our program said that there's a conspiracy between the public and the first lady and the president in that they know what goes on behind the scenes, but just don't tell them.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: (Chuckle) Well, there may be some truth to that, you know? Then, as history is written - or, at least modern history, because so much of what first ladies did, from Martha Washington and Dolly Madison and Abigail Adams up to the present time, was not really talked about or publicized - and, of course, we didn't have the 24-hour media environment. It is now a very different world for both the president as well as everyone around him.

But I think that every - every one of my predecessors is someone who tried to do what she thought was right for her country and her - her husband, to, you know, really make a difference, whether it was on a domestic issue or as a hostess - bringing people together to resolve political problems - or whatever it might be.

First lady as a symbol

RICKI GREEN: In your book, you … talked about some advice you had on how to work with the fact that the first lady is a symbol, and seems that the American public wants it that way, so to use the symbolism to do some of the things you felt were important. Could you talk a little bit about that?

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Well, you know, I came from a professional background. I had always worked, ever since I was 13, and I really believed that people have to be responsible for what they do, and their contributions should be judged accordingly. So, I was happy to pitch in and be one of the literally thousands of people who are in the White House only because of Bill Clinton being president. Nobody was there on his or her own merits. They were there because he was elected president.

And I thought that it was a great opportunity to continue the work I'd done on behalf of women and children and education and health care and so much else.

And what I learned, among many things, is that symbolism is very important in that role. And I friend of mine said, "You know, symbolism can be efficacious." So, I tried to use the position to try to promote causes and concerns that I believed were important.

But I would not have been satisfied if we hadn't gotten something done. I mean I am not enthusiastic about just holding a photo opportunity about trying to get more foster children adopted. I wanted legislation. I wanted changes in regulations at the same time. So, it became more of a marriage of the symbolic and the practical.

Fears of first ladies having 'too much' power

RICKI GREEN: … You, as you've said, weren't the first first lady to run into a kind of a fear about women with "too much" power, or first ladies with "too much" power. What do you think is behind that? And do you think we're making any progress now?

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: I have no idea. I mean that's something that others will have to comment on. I think there's a fear of unaccountable power. There's a fear that, you know, somebody who is married to the president will, at the end of the day, have more influence than a vice president or a Cabinet member, or a senator.

Based on my experience, and certainly given the way my husband made decisions, that was totally ridiculous, you know, since he was not afraid to ask everyone for opinions and had enough curiosity intellectually to seek out good advice from all kinds of people. It could be a problem if you had a president who was totally uncurious and easily influenced, but that wasn't my experience.

RICKI GREEN: Would you agree with the assessment that there will always be limitations on the role of the first lady? Just by its very definition, you will always be the wife of somebody.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Yes. I, I think that, it is, by nature, a vicarious role. It is not a job. It doesn't have a set of responsibilities. You know, for the first time in my adult life, I was a volunteer - a full-time volunteer, 24 hours a day. And I so appreciated the privilege of being in the White House, but it is, by its very nature, a position that will always be an adjunct position. And I don't see any way around that.

And it'll be interesting, when we finally have a woman president, how that affects whoever - if she does have a husband, how that affects whoever the husband is.

How would a 'first man' role be different?

RICKI GREEN: Yes, I … was curious what you would think how a first - how a first man role would be different.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Well, in - in most of the instances where we've had women governors, their husbands have gone about their jobs. You know, they went to work. They got up, and they were businessmen, or they were attorneys, or doctors, or whatever their profession might be.

And that became more of the role in the lives of women married to governors, starting in about the 1980s, because I continued to practice law. And that was a little bit foreign at the beginning, but by the end of the decade and certainly into the nineties, you know, governors' wives have similarly pursued their own professions.

When Elizabeth Dole's husband, Robert Dole, was running in 1996, she said she was gonna continue her profession - at that time, the head of the American Red Cross.

I still think it's harder for the spouse of a president, because there are so many more expectations, and the scrutiny is much higher; but we probably will see whether or not that can be done if and when we have a woman president with a husband who is maybe not retired yet and has some work to continue. But as far as the wives of presidents, I think it's very difficult to continue one's profession.

RICKI GREEN: You know, as more and more women have more … experience, more degrees, they come to the White House as first lady with their own track records. Do you think that first ladies, in a sense, can ever have it all - meaning both being able to set aside their - the expectations for the role that the American public has and do something significant that reflects their own - their own interests and who they are?

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Well, I think I did, so I can't speak for anybody else. I'm very satisfied with the work that I did and, you know, the programs I started, like Save America's Treasures, which is still continuing to this day, doing a lot of historic and cultural preservation; and many of the pieces of legislation that I had a major role in establishing Vital Voices, which is a program that really tries to reach out and support women internationally who are struggling for their full roles in their societies.

So, I - I don't think I could've done all that had I not been in the White House with the full range of opportunities available to me as first lady.

Running for Senate

RICKI GREEN: Did you - did the realization that the limitations - ahem - on the role of first lady were gonna always be the same, given the fact that it's derivative power - did that in any way shape your decision to run for the Senate?

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: No, not really, no; because I - I mean I had always had my own career and my own professional responsibilities before the White House. I learned an enormous amount during those eight years in the White House, and I knew I would continue to work on behalf of issues that I cared about. And it struck me that being in a position to continue to be a decision maker, as opposed to an advocate, would be a very attractive opportunity if I could, you know, be elected.

And I was very honored when the people of New York gave me the chance to serve, and it's been just the honor of a lifetime to be the senator from New York.

RICKI GREEN: Do you have any advice you would give to future first ladies - since there is no handbook --

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Right.

RICKI GREEN: -- when they come in, particularly if they come with their own accomplishments behind them?

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: I think every woman should see it as a tremendous opportunity to serve our country and to be part of the excitement and the challenge, sometimes joyful, sometimes tragic, of being in the front row of history unfolding. And I would hope that each women would do what she felt was right for her, because at the end of the day, that has to be the standard by which you're judged. You can't, you know, try to be like anybody else. That's a disaster for a life, let alone for a first lady experience.

So, it's really up to each woman to sort of set the pace and - and the expectation and then just fulfill it to the best of her ability.

Advice on living within the boundaries

RICKI GREEN: What advice would you give about acknowledging the boundaries that it has and how to work within those, so that you don't, you know, get the kind of criticism that - ahem - you and others have had?

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Oh, I do- -- I don't - I wouldn't give any advice. I think people just have to find that for themselves. And some people never get even close to the boundary, and some people will bump up against it. That's just who they are, what their personality is, what they believe they should be doing; and I think that's appropriate ...

RICKI GREEN: Okay. Thank you so much.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Thank you very much.