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Thank you for all your contributions. A number of you have been researching the details of Frank Bescey’s story and working out some our key questions. There have been some interesting research paths taken this week. We’ve also got some closeup photos of the gloves for you that might help the investigation.
Roger Michael tried to verify if the Peoria airport was close to the construction of a new clubhouse and did a Mapquest search. Craig M Jones found some more detail at www.lib.niu.edu which said that the first field was small and unsafe, and a new field was built on the western side of Route 30. He wonders if this is the site described in the letter and the one found by Roger.
Craig M Jones went to Charles A Lindbergh’s account in “The Spirit of St. Louis” to find more information on this airfield. He quotes Lindbergh where he recalls that there was not much mail at Peoria and the air mail field was a “narrow strip of cow pasture” and that “a small gully spoils the eastern portion of the field”.
Lou Balleweg did a satellite view search on Google Maps of the Mt. Hawley Auxilliary Airport area. He says it shows what appears to be a prominent water-filled gully in the open field next to the runway, and since the airport is across the street from the Mt. Hawley Country Club he is convinced it was the location of the air-mail field.
But we still have no hard evidence. Can anyone confirm this?
There has been some discussion in the previous post about the date discrepancy, raised again by Roger Michael. It would be safe to assume that Frank simply got the year wrong, as it took place more than 70 years before his sworn account.
There has also been some speculation as to whether Lindbergh would have left his plane, or if he would have remained in his seat and delivered and received the mail to a postal worker. Was there enough time for Lindbergh to get out of the plane, exchange mail, and be back in his seat by the time Frank and his friend crossed the road?
Craig M Jones references Charles A Lindbergh’s account in “The Spirit of St. Louis”, where he mentions that the mailtruck driver is the only help at the field. This would seem to confirm Frank’s account about the ‘man from the post office’.
Does anyone have any further thoughts on this?
There has been some more research done into aviator gloves. Nancy O’Hanlon found a reference in a book by a fellow air mail pilot which says he wore “a pair of light woollen gloves and a heavy fur mitt over that’. Another reference describes the use of mittens and A. Scott Berg’s book on Lindbergh speaks of a leather mitten worn during his historic flight across the Atlantic.
Craig found some evidence that Lindbergh didn’t feel the cold and has suggested that he may not have worn such heavy duty gear.
Nancy - though not convinced these gloves are aviator gloves - also found a reference in Anne Morrow Lindbergh’s book to “two pair mittens (wool lined)”.
Roger Michael found images of these gloves donated by the Lindberghs to the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. They are now on display at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum and the website. These examples seem to have put to rest any doubt that Lindbergh wore heavy duty mittens in the air, but they are from a later time period and are quite different to our contributor’s gloves.
Lou Balleweg has contacted a company specializing in sheepskin clothing to see if they can date the gloves.
Roger Michael did some research into leather gloves manufacturing and discovered that Fulton County, New York, produces 90% of fine leather gloves made in the USA. He contacted the Fulton County Historical Society to see if they have any information or can shed light on our contributor’s gloves.
Kelly Mesch, our contributor has taken a closer look at the gloves. She discovered a tag inside and has sent us an image. Can you decipher what it says on the tag and whether it can tell us where the gloves come from?
It looks like there’s still more work to be done and contacts to come through with more information. We’ll summarize what’s still outstanding below.
Task One: Find evidence of the location of the airfield that Lindbergh did his mail run in Peoria.
Task Two: Find information on when the club house was built - does this match the dates Lindbergh flew the mail run in Peoria?
Task Three: Document your thoughts on Frank’s account. Do you think it is true?
Task Four: Examine the tag. Can you decipher the text and find out if it can tell us more about the manufacturer and the year they were produced?
Did these aviator gloves belong to Charles Lindbergh from his day flying a mail route in the mid 1920s?
Week 1: Are These Charles Lindbergh's Gloves?
Week 2: The Man, The Gloves, The Airfield
Week 3: Our Online Team Researches the Details
Week 4: New Doubts About the Gloves
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My take on the glove tag information (with some margin of error)
? TYPE A?9A
( S)PECIFICATION MO 94-3070-?
SIZE MEDIUM
PURCHASE ORDER NO 44G527-?A?
HANSEN GLOVE COMPANY
PROPERTY
AIR FORCE or AIR FORCES
I hope there are some sharper eyes out there than mine.
I sent a request for city directory and city history for Milwaukie Wisconsin
RAOGK lookup volunteer for any information about Hansen Glove Co.
I have also sent a lookup request/query to the Milwaukie Public Library
reference librarian for any information about the history of the Hansen
Glove Company.
The words "Air Forces" suggest these mittens were issued by the US government.
According to Wikipedia the air arm of the US military was known as "The U.S. Army Air Service", from 1918 to July, 1926, not "U.S. Army Air Forces".
This would indicate the mittens were manufactured after July, 1926,
Because of delays involved manufacturing and distribution, they would not have existed in the early fall of 1926.
Good research, Lou. As a matter of fact the US Air Force did not exist as such until 1941. Prior to that it was a branch of the Army and was called the Army Air Corp from 1926-1941. My belief is that these are not US government issue or they are of a much later date.
At this website are three areas of interest that match up pretty good with the Lindberg gloves we have been looking at.. 1. A good photo of US Army Air Force Type A-9A Glove 2. Good photo of Spec. number 94-3070-A 3. Logo on back has "Army Air Forces"
http://www.snyderstreasures.com/pages/usuniforms.htm
We should think also about other countries that could use "air forces" in their title...
I found this online, it shows a glove (although looks different) it uses the same numbers that appear on this label and was made by the same company. although the year is 1940s
I am under the impression this is a French website showing US gloves.
http://wing.chez-alice.fr/USAAF/USAAF_footwear.html
the 2nd pair shown...called
Gauntlet, Flying, Winter, Type A-9 and A-9A
spec. no. 94-3070 and 94-3070-A
The below listed website for the Army Air Forces Historical Association offers a timeline for names changes for the US Air Force as we currently call it.
http://www.aafha.org/
If these gloves are Medium - and the ones Charles L. donated to the museum [as found last week..at http://collections.nasm.si.edu/code/emuseum.asp?style=browse¤trecord=1&page=search&profile=objects&searchdesc=mittens&quicksearch=mittens&newvalues=1&newstyle=single&newcurrentrecord=4] were not labeled "medium/large" etc.. but by their size: 10 1/2
Dimensions: 10 x 4 1/2 x 1in., 0.4lb. (25.4 x 11.43 x 2.54cm, 0.2kg)
It causes me to think - when did manufacturers start calling things "small / medium / large" ... i'm not sure if that is relevant or not. But if that designation wasn't used until much much later, then that might be a clue.
Christines find at
http://wing.chez-alice.fr/USAAF/USAAF_footwear.html
has the exact same type and specification numbers, and manufacturers name.
Although the picture shows a mitten with a separated index finger, it is very convincing evidence that Kelly's mittens are WW2 vintage and therefore not valid.
I have to agree with the above conclusion. These gloves must be from a later date because of the "Air Forces" on the label. Hansen did make gloves and mittens for both World Wars but a glove or mitten from 1926 would not have "Property of the Air Forces" on the label.
Lindbergh did join the Army Air Corps in 1925. But these gloves would have to be even after the Army Air Corps days and must date to 1946 or after.
Unfortunately this family folklore story does not ring true. It just doesn't fit like a glove...It would have been a wonderful find. And I still wonder why this gentleman took pen to paper if he didn't feel these gloves were of some importance.
They can't even be Lindbergh's gloves from later in his career as he was unable to serve in WWII due to his prewar speeches. He did however serve as a "technical representative" in the South Pacific. Where I don't think he would have needed such heavy mittens.
Correction...LIndbergh joined the USAAC in 1924
I have been researching the company names Hansen Glove Company
Hansen Glove Corp and Hansen Glove Factory. All three share a
Wisconsin State location, the HG Company and HG Corp share a
Milwaukie Wis. origin,the HG Factory was in Clintonville Wis.
According to the ref. librarians at Milwaukie Wis Public Library,
Two brothers started the Hansen Empire Fur Factory in Milwaukie
in 1871 One of the brothers Carl Oscar Hansen left to form the
Cream City Hat and Trimming Comapny which became OC Manufacturing
which became Hansen Glove Company in 1930-too late for Mr Becsey's
story/timeline.
According to "The Business Founding Date Directory/Alphabetical and
Chronological Sections" by Etna M.Kelly 1954.
Listing reads Hansen Glove Corp. 715 Van Buren St Milwaukie Wis
founded in 1871.
This would suggest to me that Hansen Glove Company became the
Hansen Glove Corporation over the years and both company names
postdate Mr Becsey's timeframe.
It does not appear likely the gloves submitted for investigation were manufactured in the 1920s. The specification to which they were made was not approved until late in WWII.
The passage below is from the book:
US Army Air Force (1): V.1
By Robert Pitta, Gordon Rottman, Jeff Fannell, Martin Windrow, Simon McCouaig
Illustrated by Simon McCouaig, Francis Chin
Published by Osprey Publishing, 1993
ISBN 1855322951, 9781855322950
available at Google books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ydRaKBTQ0AgC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&ots=NaaCeuM9Er&sig=U3wgSIg_N3SruIzJeQ9Te0OE-_k&hl=en&sa=X
page 21:
The A-9 winter flying gloves, standardized on 22 April 1935, were two-finger (forefinger and thumb) mittens made of seal brown pigskin shell lined with shearling. An improved version, the A-9A winter flying gloves, were standardized on 11 April 1944. It was made of goatskin, pony hide, or deerkin lined with shearling.
On 9/3 Nancy O'Hanlon said:
"They can't even be Lindbergh's gloves from later in his career as he was unable to serve in WWII due to his prewar speeches."
But he did serve (as a civilian)-- and in military duds, too. This is from a Lindbergh website www.charleslindbergh.com/history/index.asp):
"50 COMBAT MISSIONS
In April 1944, Lindbergh went to the Pacific war area as an adviser to the United States Army and Navy. Although he was a civilian, he flew about 50 combat missions. Lindbergh also developed cruise control techniques that increased the capabilities of American fighter planes."
Within this cite is a hot link to a detailed description of Lindbergh's combat flying with the 475th FighterGroup ("Satan's Angels").
(www.charleslindbergh.com/wwii/):
"Over the next year [1943] Washington loosened a bit. Lindbergh's undeniable expertise with aircraft and pilots thawed the bans against him. Indeed, his diary shows an enormously busy schedule of test flights that solved pressing problems of new aircraft. In that process the Lone Eagle flew, and came to know well, almost every combat craft in the U.S. inventory. But Lindbergh hungered for combat and as early as January 1944 had made inquiries as to that possibility. . . .In April a friendly U-S- Navy sanctioned and covered Lindbergh's trip. He would go to their theater, the Pacific, as a civilian technical assistant. Neither the White House nor even Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox knew of this trip. After kitting up with Navy uniforms from Brooks Brothers (sans any insignia) and taking the usual rounds of shots, Lindbergh left San Diego for the War Zone. "
Lindbergh may actually have been issued Type A-9A mittens. While in the Pacific, he flew missions in P-38 Lightnings at altitudes high enough (10k - 18k feet) to warrant mitten use.
But I'm not sure any of this is relevant to the issue at hand. There is still no connection (yet?) between our mittens and Lindbergh.
Any way of finding out how many pairs of this type of mitten were made, and where they were distributed? (www.wing.chez-alice.fr/USAAF/USAAF_footwear.html shows four makers of this mitten: Bacmo Postman Corp.,Everlast (NY,NY), Hansen Glove Corp. and Perry Sportswear.)
That is, did some mfrs send their gloves only to the west coast or the east coast?
What was Kelly's grandfather's role in WWII Was he a flyer? Did (does?) he have a collection of WWII memorabilia large enough that perhaps Becsey's letter belongs attached to another older pair of mittens? Seems odd that such a detailed letter would be paired with an item which, frankly, can be dated so relatively easily.
Quote from Gay Lundington
What was Kelly's grandfather's role in WWII Was he a flyer? Did (does?) he have a collection of WWII memorabilia large enough that perhaps Becsey's letter belongs attached to another older pair of mittens? Seems odd that such a detailed letter would be paired with an item which, frankly, can be dated so relatively easily.
Interesting question. This would help us rectify the letter that Mr.Bescey has taken the time to write. He certainly seemed to believe the gloves were Lindbergh's.
I need to correct myself here:
"Lindbergh did join the Army Air Corps in 1925. But these gloves would have to be even after the Army Air Corps days and must date to 1946 or after."
The AAC as such was renamed the Army Air Forces in 1941. Per Wikpedia:
"The United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) was the military aviation arm of the United States of America during and immediately after World War II. The direct precursor to the United States Air Force, its peak size was over 2.4 million men and women in service and nearly 80,000 aircraft in 1944, and 783 domestic bases in December 1943.[1] By VE Day it had 1.25 million men stationed overseas and operated from more than 1,600 airfields worldwide.[2]
The Air Corps became the Army Air Forces in June 1941 to provide the air arm a greater autonomy in which to expand more efficiently, and to provide a structure for the additional command echelons required by a vastly increased force.
I note this only because the glove's label specifically say "Air Forces" and not Air Force. The Air Force name was given in 1947. So the gloves would have been issued from 1941-1947.
So it is not impossible in reference to Gay's post above that they could have been Lindbergh's gloves from a later date, but certainly not from his days as an Air Mail pilot.
I do have a hard time with the idea that a pilot could operate a plane as advanced as the P-38 wearing mittens at least the type that are shown.