"The following is a complete, unedited, unverified interview, portions of which were utilized in the Red Files PBS broadcast. Statements therein are the sole opinion of the interviewee, and do not reflect the views of PBS, DDE or Series and Web Site producer Abamedia, which are not Responsible for the interview content."

Interview with Dr. Lev Markov
Soviet Institute of Olympic Committee

Interviewer: Did sports in the Soviet Union have a political purpose?

Dr. Markov: Certainly it did, and not only in the Soviet Union. I always recall and quote as an example a famous statement of an American President John Kennedy, who used to say that in the world of that time all problems are being solved by two things -- quantity of golden Olympic medals and quantity of missiles. This says what importance was allocated to sport as a political tool both by leaders of our society and our main opponents, the United States. So, sport always been an instrument of such political influence on masses, etc.

Interviewer: What was the purpose, what was the state trying to accomplish?

Dr. Markov: Was trying -- the following purposes: to demonstrate to all the people, first of all, to which extent it is great in today's civilization, because we compared sport with wealthfare of a nation, its ability to make great achievements -- that was first. And the second, to demonstrate to surrounding -- to the world surrounding us -- to demonstrate our abilities and our advantages. We had such a theory, that we always compared sport achievements with a level of life of our people. Now we see that that was perhaps not quite so, but in principle it was believed so, and in my view, for that time that was probably true.

Interviewer: Describe the extent to which state devoted resources to sports?

Dr. Markov: Investments were not as primitive as now. Now they just give money, and for these money some work is performed. Then, it was a little bit different. Investments consisted from that whole establishments were created, laboratories, which had one purpose -- to help sport to reach the highest achievements, and the second task, not of little importance, was to preserve health of a sportsman. It is very important. And these investments were not contributed just into enrichment of an athlete, not only in their big honorariums. Well, athletes lived a little better than common people, but there was a whole industry associated with development of sport -- both biomechanics, and biochemistry and other sciences, which not only obtained money; some sum, and according to this sum performed existing programs. No, they got both space and whole laboratories and equipment and other things, which makes this process not so primitive. Special laboratories were created, which were more or less oriented to some particular kind of sport, hockey, gymnastics, etc.

How was it done? Special training sessions were held, or part of training sessions, when sportsman performed some special exercises, special movements, took some loads. But at the same time all that was recorded by appropriate equipment, by results of blood sampling and even sampling of muscle tissue. And so, different results were compared with data from laboratory testing, with physiological data, objectively recorded by appropriate equipment. And conclusions were made: that this load is not appropriate for this athlete or for this kind of sport at all, something needs to be changed, either speed should be increased or amount or more attention should be paid for a technique of doing that or this exercise. In addition to all that, in hockey more even than in gymnastics, a system of influence on a psychics of a human was used.

Interviewer: Concrete example?

Dr. Markov: I did not take part immediately in these researches, but I know how it was going with Firsov, Tretyak, etc. In particular, for Tretyak, as for one of the best goalkeepers of the world, a system of neural stability, of fast-speed reaction for flying object, like a puck, was being developed. Reaction of a viewfield, i.e. he should not only look at a player, but also see in his expanded field of view where other players move, because there will be an unnoticeable momentary pass and a threat to his gate will already be from another side. That size or width of viewfield, fast reaction on actions of an adversary, that was investigated with a help of special instruments, etc. Firsov had another [situation]. There it was a strength training, his force, his coordination, his ability to escape from an adversary, rushing against him, etc., and sometime to stand against him. That was all taken into account, and separate groups of muscles were studied, which were [important] for attack player, for a field player. And in this respect such a system, selective, if you wish, it did take place.

Interviewer: What kind of pressure?

Dr. Markov: I will tell you that there was no such a pressure on sportsmen, like you lay and die, but show a result. Well, in principle, it partially was, because they always said, "You need to be faster, better than your adversary, get medals, which will glorify you, your fatherland, first fatherland and then you", and so on. That was the case. And it needs to be said that nervousness of our leaders, of our public -- all that took place, but still I would put on the first place a feeling of patriotism and responsibility for fate of Russia not only today, not only in future, but also in the past.

I told you that at competition in Grenoble in Winter Olympics, which ended not quite successfully for us, and skiers performed there not very good also, they lost a relay race, which had been about to be won, lost individual race. Second place was considered to be weak. It was considered good if you are the first, the second place and others were considered as failures, so after that weak performance, one leader of our sports came to cloak-room, where our skiers were sitting, and said, "It's a shame of you, that you perform so bad! What's the matter? Look, 20-millions of our people died during the war to enable us to build this state, to make an influence on this situation. They all stand up from that world, from their coffins, and look into your eyes. How can you look into their eyes? Did you give out all, like they did? They gave out the most valuable -- life! And you? What are you doing here, barely moving your feet?" Talks like that took place.

Interviewer: Sex tests?

Dr. Markov: This refers to women only. I won't say that it was a selection, a special selection of persons with X-chromosome. They just made it into a team due to this, because they were stronger, more powerful athletes. What tests could do is to say can they participate in competitions among women or not. And when it was introduced at an international level, it was hard for us to do without these tests.

Interviewer: Many people think, that anabolics were first developed in the Soviet Union to achieve sport results.

Dr. Markov: I absolutely firmly believe in truth of what I will tell. We were not the first. I can even tell you that first anabolic drugs were passed by an American doctor to our basketball doctor. I don't know with which purpose, but we are not the first who use anabolics.

Surrounding of our sport world and tasks of strategic sport results essentially forced us to follow those who used these drugs, certainly until such a strict control for use of anabolics was applied.

Interviewer: Was it a state policy or coach decided?

Dr. Markov: It must be said that there was no such a state policy. There were two issues -- variants. First, when a coach and an athlete resolved this issue independently. That was the worst variant. And the second when special laboratories, groups of scientists prepared a so-called pharmacological program. That was the most efficient method, because they knew action of these drugs. They knew what is allowed and what is not, and certainly tried to envision doses which could not cause a substantial damage to a body of an athlete.

Interviewer: If a coach uses drugs, the Sports Committee must have known that?

Dr. Markov: Certainly, it should have known, but not always knew, because when an athlete and a coach independently selected drugs, taking into account advises and conclusions of sometime foreign coaches, foreign athletes, their "friends," that passed without attention of the Sports Committee. They solved this problem independently. Here, in this respect one can unambiguously say that when programs were assembled by our specialists, and when they were independently solved by a coach and an athlete, these were two different things.

Interviewer: You said that medical drugs were not first invented and applied in the Soviet Union.

Dr. Markov: But we were good students. We must have been develop a good pharmaceutical industry, strategy at a rather high level -- control, accounting and development.

Interviewer: Use of different drugs including steroids for improvement of sport results?

Dr. Markov: I repeat once again, they were not first used by us; we took that from our competitors, from our adversaries, and used in business. It so happened that we proved not bad students. We took from our "teachers" what was suggested, just improved that and introduced into a framework of some scientific investigations in our laboratories, in groups of specialists. This fact should be taken into account here. By the way, for some time we were in a state of great perfection, but then we were surpassed, and it seems to me, it's my opinion, that specialists from GDR were still ahead of us.

Interviewer: Your opinion as a scientist, did it help? 39 athletes died.

Dr. Markov: If there is such a doctor, I would gladly talk with him, because what he says is somewhat fantastic -- 39 sportsmen died! People died, indeed, but we had singular such cases. I know 2-3 cases; there is hardly anybody here who knows more than me. Strychnine drug, which was used as stimulator, was responsible. I must tell you that, in principle, programs used by us, were relatively safe for athletes. But it should be said that they only helped in case, when an athlete was well trained. You understand, it is useless to give these drugs to us. Let's give them even in barrels; we won't demonstrate a result. Training is the principal, while these drugs just slightly increase workability, stability, etc. Say, oriental drugs, such as Chinese lemon-tree, ginseng, and others, could play a role only given a very good preparation. The most important is a preparation of an athlete. The best results were demonstrated by these drugs for sportsmen, working on sustenance.

Interviewer: A bicyclist died from a heart injection?

Dr. Markov: I know this story about bicyclist Rashchenko from literature sources, same as you, from an article, which was called "Doping" and was written by Elena (Voytsekhovskaya). It is a large article, where a lot of material was quoted. In particular, it says that this sportsman, participating in a team bicycle race, got injections of strychnine straight into his heart from a coach and died on a road. I recently, literally few days ago, made a lecture for the best coaches of bicyclists of Russia, and when I quoted this example, I saw negative reaction of one coach, who told me, "Have you been there yourself, have you seen yourself?" I said, no, I just read. "In reality all that was not so." So, this story is covered by some darkness of unknown. What was there, who was there, maybe he died for some other reasons not due to strychnine injection, I can not tell now. I read that in a magazine or newspaper, same as you.

Interviewer: Who died from strychnine?

Dr. Markov: I know about death of one bicyclist, and I know about death of one rower. I am aware of their using of strong-acting drugs. I don't know what was there, pure strychnine, or mixed with something. But in any case, they died from use of these drugs. That was sometime before perestroika. I can not now exactly recall, sometime after 1980s.

Interviewer: Is it true that athletes who use drugs experience long-term negative effects?

Dr. Markov: I can tell that, and absolutely exactly. It is here, where I have an experience. People who use them, first of all anabolics -- very many sportsmen have a delayed negative effect. What it amounts to? A so-called carcinogenic situation emerges in the body. The body is so ready for development of a tumor. And these people suffer and often die from tumors. Which? Tumors of liver, tumors of brain, and tumors of organs and tissues. This delayed effect is discovered absolutely, exactly. It has been proved not only by our but by other specialists as well. Here lays danger of use of these drugs, a serious negative result, hidden from us.

Doping disease not only touched adult's professional sports, it penetrates youth's sports like tentacles of a sprout. I am not stating that this exists in children's sport, when kids are just starting to train, but in youths, when these young cocks have already began to sing with slightly breaking voices. Teenagers start to apply medical drugs to make sure that they would have less of these cock's songs, these breaks. And I will tell you, this is the most fearful. I would like to note one "but. We thought that responsible for that are coaches, which give this drug to their students, but when we made a large anonymous poll across regions of Russia, we discovered one thing. It turns out that coaches are not the main suppliers of these drugs. Sportsmen most often get them from their comrades, "friends," while coaches occupy only 5-6th place in deliveries. Even parents give these drugs more often than coaches.

Interviewer: What was you feeling when you learned about use of drugs?

Dr. Markov: If not making a false face, I will tell you that I was not overwhelmed with any especially embarrassing feelings. For me most important was to see this drug -- is it dangerous for a body or just increases workability? That is principally important, because part, and rather large [part] of drugs, which are in the list of prohibited do not cause large direct damage to a body of a human, but artificially increase workability, and let an athlete to step beyond a margin, after which destruction of a body starts. If a drug is relatively harmful, I looked at it as at a successful trick of an athlete. But it was at that time, when there was no such a strict control, yet if a drug, like that strychnine, led to very serious situations of a body, illnesses of athletes, I had a strictly negative attitude to it.

I must say, that when Ter-Ovanesyan was in a zenith of his glory, practically not performed, then a problem of a doping disease practically reached an apogee. But it needs to be said that I don't think that Ter-Ovanesyan used any prohibited drugs. Why he demonstrated outstanding results? He just was strongly prepared in his physical qualities, in his internal essence of a human, an athlete, therefore he could do without these things. Moreover, he would not wish to compromise himself. Generally, use of doping drugs is a way of failures, of those who perform poorly, while those who perform good without that, do not venture for that as a rule. Ter-Ovanesyan was one of outstanding athletes. He could compete as equal with the best athletes of the world, and he won. He was sufficiently prepared, he had a high culture of training. He relates to those sportsmen whose own special sport training culture sufficiently developed and sufficiently well-framed. I don't think that he used any stimulating drugs to - -

Interviewer: Difference between our motivations?

Dr. Markov: Stimulation or motivation of our sportsmen of that time was in no case linked to so unusual honorariums. Yes, outstanding sportsmen lived a little bit better than our average Soviet person. They had better apartments. Some outstanding sportsmen had even cars [purchased] at a state price, relatively low. But still, another was the main for them. Conscience and patriotism were at the first place for them; that can be said absolutely certainly. We absolutely did not discuss question "did I must or not." This must be performed under a program of training, and that's it, and everybody performed that, I tell that absolutely sure, iron-proof. Our swimming coach (Voytsekhovsky) once got into a very peculiar situation. One time he managed to prepare ours, so that they bet even Americans, Germans from GDR, where there are very good swimmers.

Interviewer: Were the results worth the costs?

Dr. Markov: Looking back and comparing the past with the present, I can absolutely, firmly say, that yes, those expenses worth that. They worth that we had outstanding athletes. Then there were both Ter-Ovanesyan and Kuts, all the allocated time won't suffice to list all. Yes, indeed, now there are also good athletes, but motivation is absolutely different, and, it needs to be said, earlier expenses for preparation of athletes, for opening laboratories, even whole institutes, justified themselves.

Interviewer: You know Tarassov, what he thought about the influence of doctors?

Dr. Markov: You know, he listened to opinion of doctors, in particular, to mine. I always talked with him as equal. When he was wrong, I was proving my rightfulness, same as he did. But he had original approaches. When he saw that we cure an athlete and not always successfully, he told to us and to an athlete, "Listen, friend, we are a sport team here, rather than a hospital. Why are you still ill and ill?" As if a disease depended from an athlete. But that was his view. As a coach he was outstanding, an outstanding coach. And today his skills and his authority would hardly be beaten by any other coach, not only in this country, but in the world in general.

Interviewer: What were relations between Tarassov and officials?

Dr. Markov: Here you are strongly mislead. Sports Committee never wanted to break Tarassov down. Tarassov was independent, a man of principles. But here higher officials intervened into this sphere, members of the government, even Politburo and other departmental, military chiefs with big shoulder straps. Sports Committee did try to make an influence on Tarassov, and it did influence, but that was a professional affair, professional arguments, opinions. Higher positioned officials were another thing. When he took his team from the field, then most high people, leaders of our state were nervous. Yet he, despite they were present there, just took his team away, because he did not like actions of referees. With Sports Committee he was about as equal.

In a view of preparation of reserve we are very much concerned by a status of children's sport. First, feeding of people became worse; children get less vitamins. Second, one can not immediately see a big sportsman in a children; thousands, even millions should pass. Preparation of these kids should be organized; sport should be accessible to all children. It is not known who from them will become a champion. More sports sections for children, more sports schools are needed; the most experienced coaches must work with them. I see this as a very important issue in today's sport.

A sportsman moves to the West, there he gets better conditions, you all know that very well. But an interesting thing happens. Many sportsmen which return back here perform already worse. Perhaps, that motivation and those specialists, to whom they got... We have rather good coaches. It was them who influenced sport successes of our athletes. In particular, soccer players which returned from abroad and play, did not bring anything new to us and did not show anything good. These issues are important to an extreme.

And certainly, I, as a doctor, very much concerned by monitoring of status of health, of functional status of an athlete and prediction of a possible result for every individual athlete.