(Musical break.)

MS. ERBE: Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe. Welcome to To the Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives. Up first, the politics of birth control.

All of a sudden, access to birth control, not abortion is a major political issue. A hearing on birth control versus religious liberty in Congress this week featured an all-male panel. The Republican chair barred testimony from anyone who supports women's access to birth control. That prompted New York Democrat Carolyn Maloney and our own Eleanor Holmes Norton to storm out in protest. Meanwhile, former Senator Rick Santorum surges ahead in the GOP nomination race, also opposing use of birth control. He calls birth control harmful to women and opposes abortion in all circumstances, even rape or incest. He calls pregnancy as a result of rape a gift from God.

So Linda Chavez, with this new political focus on birth control, not abortion, are Americans, men and women, in danger of losing access to birth control?

MS. CHAVEZ: Absolutely not, but should people who have religious and moral objections to contraception be forced to pay for it for others, that's the question.

MS. NATIVIDAD: Well, 57 percent of women have been polled as supportive of government paid contraception, so Congress people better listen.

MS. NEILY: I am absolutely flummoxed that this is where the Republicans have decided to make their stand. This is not the vote moving issue of 2012, like what about the economy?

MS. MATSON: Second. And last night, I paid $70 for my birth control co-pay. And that's not a typical. One in three women on birth control reports she has - struggles to afford it. And so this is a ridiculous issue and it's a serious public health concern.

MS. ERBE: Well, is it a reflection of the fact that there're a whole lot of people out there who oppose access to birth control, which, of course, progressives have been saying all the time, as soon as conservatives ban abortion, they'll go after birth control. And now, we're kind of seeing that coming true. And second - but secondly, are we entering an era where a lot of people are looking at this and saying what is happening, this was decided decades if not eons ago.

MS. CHAVEZ: But we're not talking about access to contraception. I'm sorry. There is absolute access. We had a Supreme Court decision. There were states that banned access to contraception even for married people. There was the Griswold decision decided by the Supreme Court in the 1960s. Since then -

MS. ERBE: Which all the Republican candidates for president want to see overturned.

MS. CHAVEZ: Well, I'm not sure that's correct, but the point is this is not a question about access. The question is should religious institutions for whom providing contraception is considered a grave moral offence, be forced to provide it for their own -

MS. ERBE: That's not on the table anymore, Linda. No, seriously, that is not on the table.

MS. CHAVEZ: No, the Obama administration has tried to move it back.

MS. ERBE: What is the Obama fix - has required the insurance companies to take care of it and it's actually cheaper for them to provide access to birth control -

MS. CHAVEZ: Well, that is, again -

MS. ERBE: - to pay for deliveries.

MS. CHAVEZ: - well, yes, it's cheaper than provide birth control than deliveries.

MS. ERBE: So the fact is - the argument you're making is a -

(Cross talk.)

MS. CHAVEZ: Why should the Obama administration have decided to take on the Catholic Church in this way in the first place? It wasn't - nobody has to go to work for a Catholic institution. Nobody has to - nobody forces people to take jobs for institutions with whom they have differences of opinion.

MS. NATIVIDAD: But Linda, there are customers, who are not necessarily Catholic. Catholic customers serve all kinds of people - religious, not religious, and Catholics like me, who are progressive. Cost does impact -

MS. ERBE: Ninety eight percent of Catholics tell pollsters they used birth control at some point in their life.

MS. NATIVIDAD: Exactly, but cost does limit access.

MS. MATSON: And furthermore, I would add on that a majority of Catholic hospital employees support this new removal of discrimination against birth control. And there's just - even hearing so many lies about this - 350,000 religious institutions are already exempted from providing the birth control benefit. We're talking about affiliated institutions that have a primarily public purpose. We're talking about discrimination against women. Again, we're talking about thousands of dollars that women are paying. The woman who was prevented from speaking at the boys' club hearing yesterday, she - she put forward some testimony and it would have been $3,000 to pay for it out of pocket. And of course, she had to stop paying for this out of pocket. She was a Georgetown law student. She didn't have the money. And because of this, she had to get an ovary removed.

MS. CHAVEZ: Go to Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood gets government funding and provides birth control very cheaply.

MS. ERBE: So does every Catholic church and every Catholic hospital and every Catholic school. The reverse of the argument you're making is tell them to stop taking federal money. They would collapse in two seconds. They live on it. They survive on it.

MS. CHAVEZ: Well, as a matter of fact - actually, Bonnie, I don't disagree with you there. I have argued for many, many years that once you take a government dollar, it comes with strings attached and you'd better be prepared for that.

MS. ERBE: Well, why aren't more conservatives talking about that because the fact is they're arguing, oh, it's - this invades our religious beliefs and our morals?

MS. NATIVIDAD: You know, Bonnie, they should. They should continue saying exactly that because they would be beloved during election time. I mean, you know, you brought up Senator Santorum, he's a gift that won't stop giving. I mean really, a lot of his views that he has expressed which seems to be applauded by the most conservative voters in this country - Americans have passed that a long time ago. Once we get to the general election, all of this stuff will come back. And all the Catholics who say, excuse me, contraception, not pay for that, why not? Especially - I actually told my husband about, you know, health insurance covering Viagra, but not contraception, and he goes, really? Lot of people don't know that. So it's going to be as you said, as Nicky said earlier, why stake this ground. If you want to win in 2012-

MS. CHAVEZ: Irene, they don't ask - they don't ask my opinion. I -

MS. ERBE: It is not the right argument to make.

MS. CHAVEZ: But I also think that the Obama administration did make a mistake and they're backing - they're trying to back away from it, but they did make a mistake taking on the Catholic Church. He cannot get elected without Catholic votes.

MS. MATSON: I want to address head on because we already have this contraceptive benefit in 26 states, so why are the Catholic bishops taking this on right now? Why is it suddenly so objectionable to them? And I also think this idea - we're not talking about religious freedom in this country. We're talking about - religious freedom includes a freedom to choose one's own conscience and act accordingly, not to have institutions -

(Cross talk.)

MS. MATSON: - institutions decide for everyone in this country what private health insurance plans might offer.

MS. ERBE: All right, but let me - let me throw this out there. This Santorum surge, first of all, does anybody think he's going to get - can get the nomination. Secondly, secondly, is his surge - is the message there that there're a whole lot of people we didn't realize existed in this country who want to ban birth control and support him? Or is it that the primaries and caucuses that have taken place have had such low turnout and it's fringe turnout and it's predominantly older white Christian evangelical turnout, and they don't represent even the average Republican voter?

MS. NEILY: Yes, I think it's the latter. I think that the electorate so far has been unrepresentative of the Republican Party, much less the electorate at large. And you know what, I would love to see Rick Santorum get the Republican nomination because I want this to be a referendum on social conservative values. I want this to be a referendum on gay marriage, on birth control, on abortion. And I want them to be repudiated in 50 states, and then we can move on, because there really are major issues facing this country. We have an unemployment issue. We have a deficit issue. We have a debt issue. And why is no one talking about that. Like my mind is boggled.

MS. CHAVEZ: And by the way, this election is not going to be won by the Republicans. It's either going to be won or lost by Barack Obama. This is a referendum on the Obama administration. This is the same thing we faced, you know, in 1992 with George Herbert Walker Bush. It's the same thing that Jimmy Carter faced in 1980. When you have a president, whose popularity's dropped as precipitously, even though it's coming back up a little now, as President Obama, this is a referendum on him. And you know, it probably doesn't matter much -

MS. NATIVIDAD: When you're an incumbent, the election for reelect is a referendum on the administration that's already there. So of course, that's the case. That's perfectly normal. But I'm with Nicky here. I think go ahead, continue on this path, and each one is trying to beat the other, each of the Republican candidates, trying to beat the other and being even more conservative. Well, the country right now, as she said so eloquently, is in the midst of this economic crisis. That's what they care about. And the whole impetus behind adding contraception to health care, general health care is to reduce cost for all Americans. You cannot address the economic crises without addressing the rising cost of health care. It's not something that she says, well, let's fight the Catholic Church.

MS. ERBE: But Linda, do you think Santorum has a chance of -

MS. CHAVEZ: No, I don't think he's - this really - what you're seeing in the Republican Party is some discomfort with Romney. And Governor Romney -

MS. ERBE: Because of his religion.

MS. CHAVEZ: I don't think it's his religion, no I think it's -

MS. NATIVIDAD: It's his ability not to connect.

MS. CHAVEZ: He doesn't connect and the fact is people don't really quite believe what he believes. He hasn't given conservatives a reason to say we want to embrace you. You know, he's been too many things, too many views; he's been too chameleon-like. And that has been a problem. And so -

MS. ERBE: So who's going to win?

MS. CHAVEZ: Well, I think Romney is probably ultimately going to win, but I think there is a level of discomfort. And then the question will be, will the social conservatives, as Nicky suggested, will they fall back in line because, guess what, Romney may not be the most conservative out there, but he's a whole lot more conservative than Barack Obama.

MS. ERBE: All right. Let us know what you think. Please follow me at Twitter - on Twitter, @BonnieErbe.

From political fight to women's boxing. Women will make history in this year's Olympic Games. For the first time in 108 years, women's boxing will be part of the international competition in London, this summer. But the appearance of women in the ring is not without controversy. The International Amateur Boxing Association recommended women compete in skirts. Outraged women called the rule sexist. For now, the ruling body backed down. For some boxers, the road to the 2012 London Olympics is an emotional journey. U.S. favorite Queen Underwood is a survivor of child sex abuse by her father. As a strong and independent woman, she hopes to serve as an example to other survivors.

So women's boxing becoming an Olympic sport, is this progress for women?

MS. MATSON: Oh, absolutely and you know, the Olympic charter has language in there that there's no place for discrimination against people, including on account of sex. And so it's great that we're no longer segregating women out of that sport.

MS. CHAVEZ: Erin, please, this is progress for women? This is a step back for human kind. Boxing is a brutal, vicious sport that leaves people damaged throughout their lives. Look at Mohammad Ali. I'm somebody who suffered a very severe brain concussion a number of years ago, and the effects never go away. And I think -

MS. NATIVIDAD: Guess what, I agree with you.

MS. CHAVEZ: Good.

MS. NATIVIDAD: How about that? (Laughter.) I hate boxing, whether it's by men or women, but if women want to box, I want them to have the same opportunity to compete as the men do. I won't watch it and I'm not for it - no I'm not into battering somebody's head, but so far, in the Olympic Games, women, American women have been winning the majority of medals. I think after the Atlanta Olympic, Summer Olympic Games, they tallied up all of the medals won by U.S. athletes. The majority were by women. Patsy Mink, who was the author of the Title IX bill that opened up sports - education and then sports for women, said to me that it was an accident she never even planned for. She said, who would have thought that it would open up the Olympics to women.

MS. ERBE: And the '08 Summer Games, the participation was 4,000 women athletes and 6,000 plus men athletes, so women are really getting up there. Your thoughts on boxing.

MS. NEILY: I say, go for it. Beat the heck out of each other. (Laughter.) And you know, if women can box, then I think women should be allowed to serve in combat, too, regardless of what Rick Santorum thinks.

MS. NATIVIDAD: Yes, they're too emotional to be in combat -

MS. NEILY: We can do it all.

MS. NATIVIDAD: - according to Rick.

MS. MATSON: Sing it - and I think - (laughter) - I think this woman here from the United States, Queen, I love how she's sharing her story of overcoming sexual abuse. That's so brave. And I'm just thrilled that she's out there, spreading that message. At first, I have to say, I saw the coverage of that, I think about a week or two in the news, and I thought, now, why is this that the first time that I've noticed a woman getting a full page spread on the cover of the New York Times Sunday sports section is talking about sexual abuse and not her sports. And at first, I wasn't sitting well with me, I thought, you know, why can't we focus on her athletic prowess? But the more I thought about it, you know, that's really brave that she -

MS. CHAVEZ: Erin, it doesn't occur to you that maybe the reason she likes to engage in this vicious sport is because she's a female abuse victim? I mean, again, I'm sorry.

MS. ERBE: Look, I was going to ask the same question, but put it a different way. Do you think that a woman would want to become so strong and engage in the most demanding sport there is, so she could fend off having - she talks about she would dread being in her bed asleep at night and hear the handle turn on the door? I mean can you imagine what - this was her own father abusing her. So I think it actually it may have prompted her to become the person she is.

MS. NATIVIDAD: And if that is the rationale, if that is the motivation unknown to her or known to her, that's fine, because the story actually did two things, one, talk about the sport, now, you know, that women are entering. And two, put a highlight on something that's happening in many households, but not necessarily addressed. So you know, I am sorry - I mean, you're right. That kind of, you know, background, that kind of moment every night must still be in her mind. I mean everything sticks that we experienced. We never get rid of it. If that's the motivation that makes her into an excellent athlete, fine.

MS. MATSON: And who knows what's motivating men who do this? I don't know that we would ask that question. But the interesting thing, I think, when she's out there and she's disclosing this, you look at men in sports and the issue of sexual abuse and how it's being hidden and a way to concentrate power further. And so it's interesting to see that as women become more prominent, we're actually out there busting out that - busting up that power from sharing our own stories.

MS. CHAVEZ: Well, I don't know. Boxing as a sport has always been a way out of very deprived circumstances for people that's been used by racial and ethnic minorities over the years, and now apparently by females who've suffered similar trauma. I still do not think that it's a good thing.

MS. ERBE: Yes, but - and I agree with you. I think it's not a sport - we don't want to encourage people to beat each other up. Obviously, it's violence. But if they're going to let the men do it, and I don't see any end to it, then it has to be equal opportunity, so to speak.

Behind the headlines, outgoing Finish President Tarja Halonen. The first female president of Finland is wrapping up 12 years in office. She sat down with us to talk about her presidency and its impact.

(Begin video segment.)

PRESIDENT TARJA HALONEN: Immediately, when I became a president, saw a lot of women and quite many men said, wow, we have the first woman, lady president. And then, I received a lot of letters written by schoolgirls who said that that's fine, I want to become a president, too. But so quickly changed the attitudes, and now, after 12 years, there's a whole new generation who have seen only a woman as a president.

MS. ERBE: In 2006, President Halonen was a candidate for United Nations secretary general. That due to her strong leadership skills, but she chose to run for a second term at home. Her 88 percent approval rating catapulted her back into office. But that was as long as she could serve under Finnish law. She's helped pave the way for more female candidates, but the incoming president is the first social conservative elected in 50 years and he's a man.

PRES. HALONEN: This - the elections for the new president, so it seemed to be so that the male candidates are now stronger, but not in the way that the people would say that. Now, that was enough. Now, we want to have a man. I spoke with some of my country people who said that they - (inaudible) - women also men who definitely want to vote again a woman.

MS. ERBE: As Finland's 11th president, Halonen stance on NATO and trade shaped finish foreign policy. She is a steadfast supporter of human rights, especially women's rights.

PRES. HALONEN: I could tell several things what I think that I have been part in the process, but I think that the gender equality has become more natural than what it was before this.

MS. ERBE: Even so Finland has laws in place to ensure equal representation of women in government appointed positions and on the boards of state-owned companies and private corporations.

PRES. HALONEN: We uses to say that we can do it without quotas, but then about 20 years ago, we started also with a new legislation and the result was that we have got much more women in public sector in the former male sectors like engineering and so on, and another way around. That because we have this 40-60 system, so that in social welfare and health sector and in education and in culture, we have got more men, which they are also useful. The present government is about 50-50. The previous government we had a slight majority of the women at the national government. But we think that if you have not both genders represented, so we say that oh, that's one-sided.

MS. ERBE: President Halonen wants American women to know they can crack the political glass ceiling, too.

PRES. HALONEN: You can do it. You are - you have much bigger role in business what we have. What we tried to learn from your system is that your women are much stronger in business life. We - of course, we work hard. We are full time workers in that way, if I put it in classical terms, but I think so that your country would be ready, quite well.

(End video segment.)

MS. ERBE: What - you know her well, Irene. What's her legacy, what's her main legacy?

MS. NATIVIDAD: I think it's the legacy of a woman being able to be head of state. I think she's right. A man may have won this time around, but nobody will ever think in Finland that only a man could be head of that country. That's a big deal legacy. It's one that I wish we had here. We gave her - she's not just a president, you know, you don't end up with 12 years under your belt if you were mediocre. This is an exceptional woman, very smart, very committed. And also, she puts herself out. She takes risks. She was an international leader as well, which is why we gave her on behalf of women - that's why we, at the Global Summit of Women gave her an award, in 2000, for her leadership globally on behalf of women. She partnered with the president of Liberia, for instance, to hold a conference in Liberia, early in Ellen Johnson Sirleaf's term, in order to try to bring assistance to that country. She may still be open to an international role, either within the UN or I don't know, World Bank, or something like that. And she would be a gift because she is strong. She is honest. And she is courageous.

MS. CHAVEZ: Well, you know, you mentioned you wished that we had that here. We will. It's a matter of time and we haven't had that many women who've run. In order to get elected, you do have to run. We don't have a quota system here. I'm glad we don't have a quota system here politically. But I think women are getting involved. They are running for office. I frankly would have preferred that your party nominate Hillary Clinton, but you know, I'm not a Democrat, so I didn't get a chance to vote in that way. But I think we will have a woman president in the United States. It'll certainly be in my lifetime. I expect it to be over the next decade or so.

MS. NATIVIDAD: From your mouth to God's ears.

MS. ERBE: What about the quota?

MS. MATSON: Well, I think the quota is really interesting because we saw in Finland that actually I think a better expression of millennial values than we're seeing here in the United States. One big hot company, of course, Facebook has an all-male board of directors. And so I was just recently channeling Finland, thinking to - you know, look at how successful the quota system has been in the private sector, where they have had publicly run companies had the quota requirement. But the private companies that didn't have to follow it, it wasn't quite as strict a regulation, wound up voluntarily coming into it, seeing the benefits over on the side where it was required. And so I think there are some interesting benefits that we're seeing out of countries that use quotas to ensure the representation of women in leadership.

MS. NATIVIDAD: There are countries that have it for listed companies and not just for state-owned companies, like Norway, France, the Netherlands, for instance, Belgium, Iceland. And they're seeing numbers grow up, I mean of women holding corporate leadership roles. So I think it works. I wish we had that.

MS. ERBE: What's the profits when the women get involved?

MS. NATIVIDAD: Well, according to McKinsey studies, companies perform better when there are more women on boards and in senior management. But you know what, I hate using what they call the business case as a sole argument because it cuts too ways. It's a two-edge sword. I don't want women to be responsible for the profitability of a company. Look at the men, the more experienced men who led us to this economic crisis, the ones who were former CEOs, who were on the boards of financial services companies. Why don't you measure their impact on the bottom line? So once women come in, we have to measure - oh, did the company do better -

MS. CHAVEZ: Well, Irene, I hate to tell you, but you know, with responsibility comes responsibility. So -

MS. NATIVIDAD: Go tell that to the male directors, too, and CEOs.

MS. CHAVEZ: I agree, and by the way, I think I'm opposed to quotas in large part because I think they're a terrible crutch in stigmatizing. I would much rather make it on my own.

MS. ERBE: Last word from you, Nicole.

MS. NEILY: No, I mean this is - last year, at Davos, they tried to implement basically a quota system for every sponsoring company. I would - what concerns over that is that when you have women there who are - you question whether someone is there because they have to have you there or because you've earned it there. And I don't want that on my shoulders. I want to be there because I deserve to be there, not because -

MS. NATIVIDAD: I wish it were the last word.

MS. ERBE: All right. That's it for this edition of To the Contrary. Next week, the pregnancy project. And please check our website pbs.org/ttc for TTC Extra, where we discuss a dramatic rise in interracial marriage this week. Whether your views are in agreement or to the contrary, please join us next time.

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