Schwarzkopf: Once I was told that I would get this very large increase in force, more in fact than I'd asked for, to execute the offensive operation, I knew there was a great deal that had to be done. We had to sell that plan to the Arabs. We had to get into the detail planning.

But it was very important to me that my... principal commanders, the ones that were going to bear the brunt of that attack, had got themselves in the proper mind set as rapidly as possible and maintain that mind set throughout their planning.

Let's face it. It was a very very aggressive plan...you know, to throw forces up against the main lines and hold them, and then to make this very wide - almost a turning movement in the military definition, even more than the envelopment ... to go very very deep across unknown terrain, to move very very rapidly. It was a bold plan. And therefore it required bold planning and it required bold execution.

I knew all the commanders that were there, and I wanted them to know from the very outset what I expected of them and why.

So, when I walked into that room I initially gave them the strategic concept, what I had identified as the enemy's centre of gravity, in accordance with Klowsowitz's definition. And then how we were going to go about systematically accomplishing what we wanted to accomplish to attack that centre of gravity. And preparing the ground for the ground campaign. And then I wanted to show them what the ground campaign would be.

Q: What did you say to them, for example about the Republican Guard?

Schwarzkopf: Well I told them that I had identified the Republican Guard as one of the two centers of gravity. You know Clausewitz says center of gravity is that thing which, if destroyed, will destroy the will of the enemy to fight.

I had identified two centers of gravity in the Iraqi military. One was Saddam Hussein himself. And number two was the Republican Guard, because the Republican Guard was the elite force of the Iraqi army and if the Republican Guard collapsed, then the rest of the Iraqi army wasn't going to hold together.

So, basically, I described how we were going to cut off Saddam Hussein from his ability to issue directives to the frontline forces, through the strategic air campaign. And then secondly, I told how from day one we would start attacking the Republican Guard and we would continue to attack them relentlessly until the final ground assault, er, succeeded.

Q: Did you have a sense of history as you spoke to them?

Schwarzkopf: I didn't have any sense of history. It was a very very important briefing... I was delighted to be able to give the briefing because I'd gone through all this agony, worrying about being directed to do this One Corps attack and all of the politics and the bureaucracy involved with that, and I was so greatly relieved that now finally we were going to be able to it the right way.

Our philosophy in the United States Army has always been to present the commander's concept to your subordinates, make sure they clearly understand the concept, and then allow them to use their initiative in figuring out how they're going to conduct their operation within the overall commander's concept.

So, the best way to describe what I was doing was, I was, wanted to make everyone in that room understand the strategic concept that was involved, and the operational concept that was involved, and then allow them to go back and start their planning on how they were going to execute their part of the overall concept.

Q: There was a sort of `us and them' relationship between 18th Corps and VII Corps. I mean VII Corps, as I understand it, rather static, more conservative, they were the guys who were gonna fight World War Three. 18th Corps much more up and at 'em ... How would you characterise the difference between the two Corps?

Schwarzkopf: 18th Airborne Corps, you have to understand, consisted of the 101st Air Assault, the 82nd Airborne and the 24th Mech. We'd made innumerable trips to the National Training Center. It was a very very very highly mobile, fluid,operational concept out there, where you fought twenty- four hours a day, seven days a week. There were no off pauses, there was no stopping, there was no anything.

So I think the mentality of the 18th Airborne Corps was probably one of, you know, deep penetrations andthat's precisely why among other reasons I had them out on that flight there.

I would also confess to that I knew the 24th Division, I knew what it could do, I knew the 101st and I knew both the commanders, and I had great confidence in those two commanders. As I did in the Corps commander.

The VII Corps was of course a very, very heavy Corps with huge armored capability. This is purely personal position, but having served in the Army in Germany, where there was a great deal of control-- concern about things like maneuver damage and therefore they very much stayed on the highways and they generally would stop operations at night and start them the next morning and this sort of thing, because they didn't want to be driving across farmers' fields in the middle of the night and, you know, they didn't want to have accidents on the autobahns and this sort of thing.

So I just think, I found that there was mainly probably as a result of the National Training Center experience that there was a different mentality between those forces that had been through the National Training Center concept, and those that had not.

Q: For a civilian, like me, how would you sum up the difference between these two corps?

Schwarzkopf: When the plans were presented... by both Corps commanders, the 18th Airborne Corps plan was a very bold plan, an extremely bold plan, as was required for what their operation would consist of.

When the VII Corps plan was presented, it was a very carefully thought out build up of combat power prior to ever engaging and penetrating the position first of all, getting all of your combat power through, building up that combat power,in a correlation of forces concept, to a point where you had sufficient combat power to then take on the entire body of the Republican Guard.

And at the time of the briefing, although it was, not a bold concept, it was certainly a very very good concept for the mission that they were supposed to accomplish at that given time.

Q: Pushing on.... Cheney and Powell came over in December ... What was the message you gave to them?

Schwarzkopf: When Cheney and Powell came over in December, I think they went away feeling very good about what they'd seen. We brought in a Corps commander, we brought in two different division commanders to brief them. After they'd had the overall briefing on where we were, these people came in and briefed them in detail on their concept of the operation. They were also briefed on the logistics plans.

And I think they walked away with a very good feeling that number one, it was the right decision to go with the forces that we had there and that number two, the commander had a very good handle on what was happening.

Q: The Geneva talks, when Jim Baker talked to Tariq Aziz, do you remember sitting watching those talks?

Schwarzkopf: Well it was very late at night in Riyadh. But I realised that this was going to determine whether we went to war or not. And so I waited to watch on CNN, Secretary Baker's report out. And when Secretary Baker gave his report, very pessimistic and saying, you know, "I'll allow the Iraqis to speak for themselves ..."

And then Tariq Aziz came out and talked for... it seemed like forever, and never mentioned one word about Kuwait, at that point I realised we were going to war.

Q: How did you feel about that? You said in your book that you thought about the casualties, you thought about the cost of war.

Schwarzkopf: Well I think it's fair to say that anyone who picks the military as a career prepares all their lives for war, but hopes they will never have to go to war. Certainly more senior commanders, maybe not the junior commanders, maybe they want to get in there... But certainly anyone who's been around the military as long as I had you, you would hope that you can avoid war, because war costs people their lives. I mean your own forces, the enemy forces, innocent civilians that are caught in between. And therefore war should be the last, very very last recourse.

And so, you know, you're torn by two ends. Number one you are going through detailed preparations to make sure you do do it right and you do prevail. And at the same time another part of you is saying you know, "Gosh, it would be really be nice if somehow this could all be brought about to a necessary conclusion without the need to go to war."

Q: If the Iraqis at that stage had offered to withdraw, would you have regarded that as victory?

Schwarzkopf: If the Iraqis at that stage had offered to withdraw, I would have regarded that as victory, yes. But I would qualify that with saying that it had to be done in such a way that there some assurances that the same thing wouldn't happen six months from now. That was the problem. The Arab world was very concerned about the win-win scenario, where Saddam Hussein withdraws, we win but he wins too, and is in a position where he can now intimidate the entire Arab world from now on by saying "Remember what I did to Kuwait. I can always come back and do it again!" I offer as an intellectual exercise--"What do you think would have happened in the early days of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, if Saddam Hussein had said... `Gee, you're right world! I did something wrong. I will pull my forces out of Kuwait.' Then he pulled his forces back and stopped just short of the Rumaila oilfields and kept them all for himself, and said `Oh, by the way, there's always been a border point of dispute here. I think I'll just keep all these oilfields!'

Q: Would the world have gone to war?

Schwarzkopf: I don't think so. I don't think so. Yet he would've won big time. Strategically he would've won big time.So you have to consider not only the operational victory but the strategic victory, the long term victory. And that was one of the major concerns with Iraq pulling out at any given time, you know, right up to those latter days, people were very concerned that Iraq would pull out, but would've won anyhow because they would've intimidated the entire rest of the Arab world, and you know, would have 'em scared to death and still have these huge forces intact.

I somewhat facetiously say that I spent a great deal of time trying to get into Saddam Hussein's thinking. And, in hindsight all I would've had to have done is pick the absolutely stupidest course of action every time, and I would've been pretty close to predicting what was going to happen.

So, there were several places along the way where I think the Iraqis could've accomplished a strategic victory. And they blew it.

Q: Just a brief one. You taped a quotation from Sherman to your desk. Tell me what you taped...

Schwarzkopf: I actually had two quotations. One from General Sherman and one from General MacArthur. The General Sherman quotation was `War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say let's give them all they want.' The MacArthur one was from a speech that he gave at the United Stated Military Academy, called Duty, Honor, Country, when he said something to the effect that `Yours is the profession of arms,' and essentially was, you know, `If you don't do it, nobody else will.'

That was the bottom line to the whole thing. I taped that there because there were some times when I would think to myself "Oh my goodness!", you know, "how did I get involved in this?" and, you know "I wish somebody would lift this burden from me".

And then I came to understand that that that's the thing I've been trained for all my life. And if I didn't do it, who was going to do it?

Q: The first night of the war. Can you recall... your entry into the war room that night?

Schwarzkopf: In the days immediately preceding the launch of the air attack, we tried to keep it a very very deep secret, exactly when these attacks would be launched. Very few people knew. Now there were lots of rumors and lots of speculation and lots of talk going round the headquarters, but there had been no official announcement.

So, what I did was I asked for my principle staff to meet me in the war room down in the basement, a half an hour before `H hour'. And I had written a message to all the forces, and what I did is I assembled them in there and I read them the message... And then I asked the chaplain to say a prayer, and then I played `God Bless the USA' - a blatantly chauvinistic piece of music (chuckles), but I think it characterised the pride that all of us have in our profession, and in what we were and there's a line in there that says "I would proudly stand next to you, And defend her still today" and that's what it was all about. And I said, "Now, we all know what we need to do. Now let's get on with it."

Q: Playing the Lee Greenwood tune.... everyone who was there said it was a very emotional ... What were you feeling?

Schwarzkopf: I was very emotional. I mean,know that the orders have been given, that the planes were in the air at that time, heading towards their targets with no guarantees of the outcome. To know that we had taken a very big step and that the war had started and none of us knew exactly how it was going to end. It's a very very emotional moment.

I still, whenever I hear Lee Greenwood's `God Bless the USA', even today, I still get very very emotional. Particularly that business about, you know, men who have died. Because of course that brings back memories of Vietnam to me, as well as Desert Storm. And then, it follows up with a line that says "I would gladly stand next to you and defend her still today" and I believe that very strongly.

So there's a whole sort of emotional side of this military career that's expressed in that song, and it touches my heart every time I hear it.

Q: Just for the record, if you don't mind reading from your book --

Schwarzkopf: "Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines of the United States Central Command. This morning at 0300 ...

... we launched Operation Desert Storm, an offensive campaign that will enforce United Nations Resolutions that Iraq must cease its rape and pillage of its weaker neighbor and withdraw its forces from Kuwait. The President, the Congress, the American people, and indeed the world, stand united in their support of your actions. You are a member of the most powerful force our country in coalition with our allies has ever assembled in a single theatre to face such an aggressor. You have trained hard for this battle and you are ready. During my visits with you, I have seen in your eyes a fire of determination to get this job done, and done quickly, so that we may return to the shores of our great nation. My confidence is you is total. Our cause is just. Now, you must be the thunder and lightning of Desert Storm. May God be with you, our loved ones at home, and our country."

Q: Then you got down to business. Do you remember hearing from Jesse Johnson that the special forces in Kuwait had worked?

Schwarzkopf: Yeah, Jesse Johnson called me to report on the initial penetration by the helicopters where they had to fly in, take out a radar station, which sort of opened the door for every plane that came in after that.

It was a very risky operation, very high risk operation. They'd conducted countless rehearsals, I had had reports on every one of those rehearsals and still, you know, my heart was in my throat about whether this would succeed, and if it didn't succeed it could've cost us a lot of aircraft.

So, the first report I got back was Jesse calling me to say that the troops were back and that the mission was accomplished and, best of all, the mission was accomplished without any casualties at all.

That was the first of many pieces of good news that followed after that. I would tell you that that wasn't half as impressive as the reports I was getting later on from Chuck Horner, about the return of our aircrafts. There had been speculation that in those initial waves of aicraft, our casualties could have been as high as 20%. Which given the type of operation it was, compared to the type of operation that had occurred in other wars, would not have been extraordinarily high casualties.

So when the reports are coming back in from Chuck Horner saying, you know, 100% of all the aircraft to date have returned, and we have only lost one aircraft of so many aircraft, the thousands of sorties that were going out that night, I mean you know, there was just a feeling of wonderment.

We were going up against what we knew to be the most sophisticated air defence system that our air forces, our combined air forces, had ever flown against.

Q: How important, was the first night -- what it achieved?

Schwarzkopf: Well I don't think it accomplished anything by way of surprise. The Iraqis were more than ready. So that's the bad news.

The good news is it didn't make any difference, because what in fact happened was it was completely successful in accomplishing everything we wanted to accomplish at very very very low cost.

And because the cost was so low, it then allowed us to continue on with the campaign, you know, day in and day out after thatwith a much greater feeling of relief, knowing that we could in fact execute this very very ambitious strategic air campaign and that we wouldn't have a very very high price for it.

I think that that was, more than anything else the, the importance of that first night's campaign.

Q: Saddam.What were your instructions with regard to Saddam Hussein?

Schwarzkopf: Well, the objective regarding Saddam Hussein was that he was in fact a center of gravity. He was the single most important person in Iraq, and not only that but in Iraq's determination to fight this war. Also when you study the war between Iran and Iraq, often he was the person issuing the orders to the frontline troops.

Q: So you wanted to get him?

Schwarzkopf: That was one of their strategic weaknesses. So therefore what we wanted to do was sever his his ability to... communicate with his frontline forces. And if that meant killing him, then so be it.

I mean, you certainly want to go after the centre of gravity and therefore we bombed command bunkers and this sort of thing. But the objective was not to kill Saddam Hussein, as much as it was to completely sever his ability to communicate with his forces.

Q: What was the closest you came?

Schwarzkopf: Ah! The closest we came, we had a report that there was a very very large convey moving down a road one night. We then attacked that convey and it's my understanding that we hit the vehicle in front of his and the vehicle behind his, and killed the bodyguards in it, and didn't touch him.

But, one of the interesting things that happened is up until that time, Saddam had been quite visibly up front on television, walking around and being seen in public. And all of a sudden we didn't see him any more. So that in itself accomplished something.

Q: Getting to the scuds. You got a message, you say in your book, from your Operations Officer about Israeli intentions on the Saturday morning. The first day no scuds, and then the second night they fired the scuds. And it was saying there were Israeli fighters and so on.

Schwarzkopf: The message we got was that there was an Israeli aircraft, in the air, prepared to attack into western Iraq.

That caused me considerable concern on two fronts. The first being that the Arabs had made it very clear from the first day we arrived over there, that any involvement on the part of Israel would make their position almost untenable...Secondly... of course, I had aircraft in the air over there. We had aircraft in the air. Chuck Horner's aircraft were there. And there's a deconfliction that has to take place with another force of aircraft entering into that area, flying around, could have created a great great difficulty with regard to fratricide and I was very very concerned about deconflicting this area.

Thirdly, quite frankly, there was nothing that the Israelis could've done that we weren't already doing, and so therefore it would've been really a futile gesture which could've caused the coalition to become unglued and all for something that was already being done.

Q: Tell me about the difference in the approach between Washington and yours...

Schwarzkopf: Washington's approach to the scuds was purely a political approach. My approach was purely a military approach.

Washington was very concerned about the pressure that was being brought to bear within Israel as a result of the scuds landing on Israel. And the fact that, if we couldn't convince the Israelis we were doing everything that could possibly be done to stop the scuds, that they would intervene, with subsequent impact on the coalition.

I would confess to you that my position was quite different and that's that number one, no one in Israel was ever killed by a scud missile. They did have some people die as a result of putting their gas masks on wrong. But no one was ever killed as a result of scud missiles.

Secondly, many many of the scud missiles were landing way outside of the towns. So as a military weapon it was, it was almost totally ineffective. It had no military significance and, by diverting as much air power as we were being required to divert, in kind of chasing this needle in a haystack, which is what the mobile scuds turned out to be, we weren't being very successful, every time we thought we were being successful we'd find out subsequently we weren't being very successful.

So we were diverting huge amounts of aircraft which could be contributing to the overall campaign plan. As a result the campaign plan was being prolonged because we weren't accomplishing on the time schedule we'd planned to accomplish, because of this diversion.

Please don't misunderstand me. I clearly understand the pressures that were on Washington and why they were doing it. But it was the only time during the entire war, where we started getting sort of the operational-type instructions from Washington DC.

Up until that time Washington had been very content to let the military people in the field do the job of the military people in the field. And, and now all of a sudden we were getting more of the, you know, "Why don't you go out and do this? Why don't you go do that? Why isn't it..." And I would say that although I was somewhat frustrated by it, the person that was really really frustrated was poor Chuck Horner. I mean it was just driving him crazy.