01.31.2020

Oscar Nominee Petra Costa on Threats to Democracy in Brazil

Petra Costa’s latest film “The Edge of Democracy” is nominated for Best Documentary at the Oscars. It’s an intimate look at the rise and fall of former Brazilian presidents Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and Dilma Rousseff. The current president, Jair Bolsonaro, is also featured, and he has already called the film a work of “fiction.” Costa joins Hari to discuss the dangers to democracy in Brazil.

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> AND NOW WE TURN TO ANOTHER VITAL ISSUE OF OUR TIME THAT'S IN THE SPOTLIGHT, PETRA COSTA'S FILM 'THE EDGE OF DEMOCRACY' IS NOMINATED FOR BEST DOCUMENTARY AT THE OSCARS.

HERE'S AN INTIMATE LOOK AT THE RISE AND FALL OF FORMER BRAZILIAN PRESIDENTS, LUIZ IGNACIO LULA DA SILVA AND DILMA ROUSSEFF.

THE CURRENT PRESIDENT JAIR BOLSONARO, A WORK OF FICTION.

PETRO COSTA JOINED US TO DISCUSS THE DANGER TO DEMOCRACY IN HER HOME COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

SO FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT'VE ONLY HEARD THE TITLE IN THE CONTEXT OF AN OSCAR NOMINATION, CONGRATULATIONS.

BUT WHAT'S 'THE EDGE OF DEMOCRACY' ABOUT?

IT IS MY SEARCH TO UNDERSTAND THE SEAT OF FASCISM THAT I SAW GROWING ON THE STREETS OF BRAZIL.

ONE DAY I WENT TO FILM A PROTEST, AND IT WAS JUST A PROTEST ASKING FOR DILMA'S IMPEACHMENT.

BUT I SAW PEOPLE ASKING FOR THE RETURN OF THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP THAT MY PARENTS HAD SPENT THEIR LIFETIME FIGHTING AGAINST AND THAT HAD KILLED AND TORTURED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

AND I WAS BORN AT A TIME OF DEMOCRACY AND DEMOCRACY WAS MY BIRTHRIGHT.

SO THE FILM WAS ABOUT THE SHOCK OF FINDING THE SEAT OF FASCISM.

BUT I THEN GO AND DOCUMENT THE ENTIRE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS OF DILMA, THE IMPRISONMENT OF LULA, AND THE ELECTION OF FAR-RIGHT PRESIDENT BOLSONARO.

IN THIS FILM, IT YOU'RE ALSO HIGHLIGHTING IN YOUR OWN FAMILY THERE'S A GAP WIDER THAN THE AMAZON RIVER HERE ON HOW YOU GUYS HAVE GOTTEN TO BE WHERE YOU ARE, WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

TELL US ABOUT THAT.

MY GRANDFATHER FOUNDED A CONSTRUCTION COMPANY IN BRAZIL THAT GREW DURING THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP.

THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP CAME TO POWER THROUGH A COUP HE SUPPORTED AND THOUGHT WAS POSITIVE BECAUSE OF A FEAR AT THE TIME OF THE COLD WAR AND THE THREAT OF COMMUNISM.

WELL, MY PARENTS BECAME PROGRESSIVE IN THE '60s, BROKE OFF FROM THE FAMILY, WENT UNDERGROUND AND STARTED FIGHTING AGAINST THAT SAME DICTATORSHIP.

SO THAT CREATED A HUGE DIVISION INSIDE A FAMILY THAT WAS KIND OF FORGOTTEN DURING THE TIME THAT DICTATORSHIP ENDED AND DEMOCRACY BEGAN.

BRAZIL DECIDED TO FORGET ALL THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE DICTATORSHIP BY THE DICTATORS AND BY THE PEOPLE WHO WERE RESISTING.

AND THAT FORGETFULNESS I THINK IS AT THE ROOT OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING BEING REPEATED RIGHT NOW.

A GOOD CHUNK OF YOUR FILM IS ABOUT DILMA.

LET'S GO AHEAD AND INTRODUCE OUR AUDIENCE TO JUST A CLIP OF THAT.

HERE LULA IS PREVENTING HIS ANOINTED SUCCESSOR.

HE WAS A FORMER GUERILLA FIGHTER DURING THE DICTATORSHIP.

HE'S BEING QUESTIONED AFTER 22 DAYS OF TORTURE.

WHILE INTERROGATORS HAD THEIR FACES -- ♪♪ [ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ]

THE CONNECTION BETWEEN YOUR FAMILY AND HER IS WHAT?

WELL, MY MOTHER AND DILMA HAD NEVER MET.

BUT WHEN THEY MET MY MOTHER MADE A LIST OF 20 THINGS THEY HAD IN COMMON.

THEY WERE BORN IN THE SAME CITY.

THEY WENT TO THE SAME SCHOOLS.

THEY WERE IMPRISONED IN THE SAME PRISON.

AND THE LIST GOES ON.

BUT WHEN I MET DILMA, I TRIED TO, IN THE FIRST INTERVIEW WE HAD, TO ASK HER ABOUT HER TIME DURING THE DICTATORSHIP AND THE FACT THAT SHE WAS TORTURED FOR RESISTING.

AND I FELT I COULDN'T ACCESS HER.

AND SO I HAD THE IDEA OF BRINGING MY MOTHER TO MEET HER AND SEEING WHAT WOULD COME FROM THAT MEETING.

SHE WENT THROUGH SO MANY THINGS.

AND AT THAT MOMENT SHE ACTUALLY CONFESSES THAT SHE HAD NEVER WANTED TO BE -- [ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ] [ DOG BARKING ]

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HER AND HER IMPEACHMENT AND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PROCESS THAT SHE WENT THROUGH?

YES.

WELL, IMPEACHMENT IS A VERY COMPLICATED LAW INVENTED AND ADOPTED IN THE U.S. AND BRAZIL COPIED IT FROM THE U.S. AND YOU HAVE TO REACH A LEVEL OF CRIME, HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS FOR THAT CRIME TO BE CONSIDERED IMPEACHABLE.

THAT DID NOT -- THAT WAS NOT THE CASE WITH DILMA, AS MANY PEOPLE AGREE, BECAUSE SHE WAS IMPEACHED FOR A TECHNICALITY THAT DOES NOT RISE TO THAT LEVEL.

WELL, WITH TRUMP, THE CRIME THAT HE IS ACCUSED OF, IT'S THE HEART OF WHY THE IMPEACHMENT LAW WAS CREATED, WHICH WAS TO PREVENT THIS TYPE OF ABUSE OF POWER, INTERFERENCE OF A FOREIGN NATION IN A NATIONAL ELECTION.

HOWEVER, THE FACT THAT SHE COULD BE IMPEACHED AND SHE WAS IMPEACHED, AND HE MIGHT NOT BE IMPEACHED SHOWS THE FIDULITY OF THIS LAW AND HOW IT CAN BE USED FOR POLITICAL INTERESTS.

AND WHAT I TAKE OUT OF THIS IS THE IDEA THAT IT'S NOT THE CONSTITUTION THAT PROTECTS OUR DEMOCRACY BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION CAN BE SO EASILY ABUSED AND MISUSED, BUT TO UNWRITTEN ONES WHICH ARE SELF-CONTROL AND NEUTRAL RESPECT THAT WE'RE LOSING MORE AND MORE IN DEMOCRACIES WORLDWIDE.

ONE OF THE OTHER CENTRAL CHARACTERS IS LULA, AS YOU SAID, ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR POLITICIANS EVER IN BRAZIL.

[ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ] HE WAS NOW IMPRISONED FOR A YEAR AND A HALF.

YOU SPOKE TO HIM AFTER HE GOT OUT.

WHAT'S HE LIKE NOW?

WHAT'S HE LEARNED?

HE SAID THAT HIS MAIN REGRET IS NOT TO HAVE REFORMED THE INSTITUTIONS, TO NOT HAVE UNDERSTOOD THAT BRAZILIAN DEMOCRACY WAS SO FRAGILE AND BELIEVED THAT THE INSTITUTIONS WERE HEALTHY ENOUGH AND REALIZED THAT THEY WEREN'T, ESPECIALLY THE JUDICIARY.

♪♪

THERE WERE MULTIPLE SCANDALS THAT HAPPENED THROUGHOUT THE TIME YOU WERE FILMING THIS.

AND ONE OF THE ONES THAT, AT LEAST AMERICANS HAVE KIND OF SUPERFICIALLY HEARD OF IS CARWASH.

CARWASH WAS THE GREATEST CORRUPTION INVESTIGATION IN BRAZIL'S HISTORY THAT UNCOVERED A SYSTEMIC CORRUPTION THAT HAD BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES BETWEEN COMPANIES, CONSTRUCTION COMPANIES AND THE NATIONAL OIL COMPANY AND POLITICAL PARTIES.

SO THEY WERE BRIBING POLITICAL PARTIES AND PEOPLE?

THEY WERE FINANCING THEIR CAMPAIGN, THEIR ELECTORAL CAMPAIGN -- ILLEGALLY FINANCING BECAUSE LOBBYING IS ILLEGAL IN BRAZIL, IN EXCHANGE FOR CONTRACTS.

WERE YOU SUPPORTIVE OF DILMA AND LULA WHEN YOU WERE MAKING THIS FILM?

I WAS CRITICAL AND IN PART SUPPORTIVE, BOTH.

I MEAN, I THINK DILMA AND LULA MADE SO MANY CONFESSIONS.

LULA COULD HAVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THE TIME THAT HE HAD 87% APPROVAL RATE TO DO THE REALLY NECESSARY REFORMS THAT BRAZILIAN POLITICAL SYSTEM NEEDS TO BECOME FUNCTIONAL AGAIN OR PUNISH THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE DICTATORSHIP AND THINGS OF THAT SUCH.

BUT THEY DID NOT DO THAT.

AND INSTEAD OF GAINING MORE AND MORE POWER IN THE SENSE OF ENGAGING MORE AND MORE OF PEOPLE'S DREAMS, IT WAS THE CONTRARY, IT WAS MORE AND MORE CONCESSIONS.

SO IN THE END YOU WERE SUPPORTING NOT TO HAVE SOMEONE WORSE BUT IT WASN'T ENGAGING INTO OUR IMAGINARY AND OUR IDEALS OF WHAT WE WANTED, A POLITICAL PARTY TO REPRESENT US.

SO, HOW MUCH OF THEIR CRIMES ARE LEGITIMATE, AND HOW MUCH WERE POLITICAL CONSTRUCTS AGAINST THEM?

WELL, IMPRISONMENT OF LULA I FIND -- I HAVE A VERY HARD TIME FINDING ANY EVIDENCE THAT MAKES IT THE CASE FOR HIM TO BE IMPRISONED OR FOR HIM TO HAVE BEEN IN PRISON.

IT'S BASED UPON THE ACCUSATION OF AN APARTMENT WHERE HE NEVER WENT.

HE WENT THERE ONCE.

HE NEVER STEPPED IN IT, SLEPT IN IT, DIDN'T HAVE THE KEY TO IT.

AND FROM THERE TO ACCUSE HIM OF BEING THE MASTER GENERAL OF CARWASH, WHICH IS WHAT THE ACCUSATION IS SEEMS VERY UNFOUNDED, AND INTERNATIONAL JURISTS SAY THE SAME.

WITH DILMA, ALSO THE CRIME, THE ACCUSATION THAT LED TO HER IMPEACHMENT WAS A TECHNICAL BUDGET MANEUVERING TO HIDE DEFICIT, WHICH IS A PRACTICE THAT MANY PRESIDENTS DID BEFORE.

SHE DID IT TO A HIGHER DEGREE, BUT STILL DOES NOT RISE TO THE LEVEL OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS.

SO IN THE VIEW OF ONE'S INTERPRETATIONS, THE RULE OF LAW IN BOTH CASES SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ABUSED.

AND I THINK IS AT THE HEART OF THE HUGE EROSION THAT HAPPENED IN BRAZILIAN DEMOCRACY.

AND HERE WE ARE NOW IN A POST-DILMA, POST-LULA WORLD WHERE JAIR BOLSONARO HAS WON.

WHAT DID HE TAP INTO?

WHAT DID HE UNDERSTANDS ABOUT THE BRAZILIAN PUBLIC AND WHAT THEY WERE FEELING?

WELL, THE FACT THAT HE HAD NOT RUN FOR AN EXECUTIVE SPACE OR OFFICE.

HE WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE CAR WASH SCANDAL BECAUSE --

HE WAS AN OUTSIDER, YEAH.

AND SO PEOPLE SAW HIM AS SOMEONE OUTSIDE THE SCANDAL THAT HAD CONTAMINATED BRAZILIAN -- THE BRAZILIAN POLITICAL SYSTEM.

AND ALSO HE TAPPED INTO -- LIKE, THERE'S BEEN A HEIGHTENED HOMICIDE RATE IN BRAZIL AND HE PROMISED THAT HE WOULD KILL CRIMINALS.

AND ALSO HUGE EVANGELICAL WAVES THAT HAVE BEEN AGAINST GAY RIGHTS, FEMINISM, PEOPLE OF COLOR.

SO ALL OF THESE KIND OF FAR RIGHT IDEALS THAT HAVE BEEN GROWING IN SOCIETY AS WELL.

AND HE CARRIES THAT FLAG.

HE SAYS AND DOES --

ABSOLUTELY, YES.

SINCE HE WAS ELECTED, THE RATE OF HOMICIDES THAT THE POLICE HAVE CARRIED OUT IN RIO HAVE GONE UP BY 20%. AND RIO HAS MORE PEOPLE KILLED BY THE POLICE THAN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES.

USUALLY PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THE CITY OF RIO HAS MORE PEOPLE KILLED --

THE STATE OF RIO.

HAS MORE DEATHS BY POLICE THAN IN ALL OF THE UNITED STATES?

YES, WHICH IS REALLY IT IS HAPPENING IN RIO EVERY YEAR TO BLACK BRAZILIANS.

AND ALSO HAS INCENTIVIZED FARMERS AND LOGGERS TO INVADE INDIGENOUS RESERVES, BURN AND DEFOREST THE AMAZON, WHICH IS ALREADY AT A TIPPING POINT WHERE IT CAN BECOME A SAVANNA AT ANY MOMENT.

AND THAT WOULD BE TRAGIC FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD, AS WELL AS ATTACKED THE ARTS, CENSORING WORKS OF ART THAT HAS LGBTQ PLUS CONTENT THAT TALK ABOUT THE DICTATORSHIP AS A DICTATORSHIP AND THINGS OF THAT TYPE.

IN A RECENT OP-ED IN THE 'NEW YORK TIMES,' YOU SAID OVER 98% OF HIS ELECTORATE WAS EXPOSED TO ONE OR MORE FAKE NEWS HEADLINES DURING THE CAMPAIGN, AND NEARLY 90% OF HIS SUPPORTERS BELIEVED THEY WERE TRUE.

WHEN YOU WERE WATCHING THIS AS A BRAZILIAN, THE RUN-UP TO THE ELECTION AND HOW THE MOST POPULAR STORIES THAT PEOPLE WERE READING WERE JUST OUTRIGHT FAKE.

WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND.

IT WAS SO STRANGE BECAUSE THIS HAD NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.

I MEAN, TO THIS EXTENT.

AND IT HAPPENED TO, THREE DAYS BEFORE THE ELECTION AND NO ONE KNEW THERE WAS A WAVE -- AND BOLSONARO GREW EXPONENTIALLY.

AND SUDDENLY THE WORKERS' PARTY STARTED TO RECEIVE LIKE MENTIONS OF 'IS THIS TRUE' THE QUESTIONS WERE IS IT TRUE THAT THE WORKERS' PARTY CANDIDATE, IS IT TRUE THAT HIS VICE PRESIDENT IS DOING SAT ANTIC RITUALS?

IS TRUE THAT HAS A BABY FROM DEVIL?

THINGS THAT ARE THAT LEVEL OF SURREALISM THAT MANY BRAZILIANS WERE BELIEVING AND CHANGING THEIR VOTES IN THE LAST MINUTE BECAUSE OF THIS FAKE NEWS.

AND WHAT WAS SURPRISING AFTER BOLSONARO'S ELECTION WAS THAT THIS FAKE NEWS WERE BEING PAID FROM SEVERAL PRIVATE COMPANIES IN BRAZIL THAT WERE INTERESTED IN BOLSONARO'S VICTORY.

SO IT REALLY GETS BACK TO THE CORPORATE FOX YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

SO ESSENTIALLY EVEN THOUGH ONE OF HIS CLAIMS WAS I'M NOT PART OF THIS CORRUPTION, HIS CAMPAIGN BENEFITTED FROM THE INFLUENCE THAT THESE CORPORATIONS STILL HAD IN THE PROCESS?

YES.

EVEN THOUGH THIS HAD BEEN FORBIDDEN JUST BEFORE THIS ELECTION.

AND SO IT WAS THE FIRST ELECTION THAT WE WOULD HAVE THAT WOULD BE RID OF CORPORATE INTEREST.

BUT THEY MANAGED TO FIND THIS LOOPHOLE AND INFLUENCE DRAMATICALLY IN THE RESULT OF THE ELECTION.

PARTS OF THIS FILM ARE ALSO -- WILL BE PRETTY FAMILIAR TO PEOPLE HERE IN THE U.S. WE'VE GOT ANOTHER CLIP OF KIND OF HOW SENTIMENTS SHIFT ON THE STREETS.

THESE WERE THE FIRST IMAGES I SAW.

IT LEFT ME ASKING WHAT HAD SHIFTED SO THAT A BOY AND A GIRL HAD TO BE REMOVED FROM A PROTEST JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE WEARING THE COLOR RED?

[ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ] FROM THIS POINT ON, THE COUNTRY DIVIDED INTO TWO IRECONCILABLE PARTS.

HOW DEEP WITH THESE DIVISIONS IN BRAZILIAN SOCIETY IF YOU WEAR THE WRONG COLOR, SO TO SPEAK, AND ARE SUPPORTING THE OTHER PARTY?

IT WAS NOT LIKE THIS UNTIL 2013.

IN BRAZIL IT WAS ALMOST TABOO TO IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS RIGHT WING BECAUSE OF THE TRAUMA OF THE DICTATORSHIP.

BUT IN 2013, AS I SHOW IN THIS FILM, THERE WERE PROTESTS THAT STARTED FOR PROGRESSIVE REASONS AGAINST THE RISE IN THE BUS FARE.

BUT VERY RAPIDLY INFLUENCES OF SOCIAL MEDIA STARTED TO BECOME FAR RIGHT AND ENDED UP CULMINATING THE ELECTION OF BOLSONARO YEARS LATER.

SO A LOT OF WHAT HAPPENED HAD A LOT OF INFLUENCE FROM SOCIAL MEDIA.

THESE FAR-RIGHT GROUPS THAT STARTED TO APPEAR THAT WERE GETTING PROMOTIONS AND BEING PAID.

AND ONE OF THEM HAS EVEN BEEN FUNDED A LITTLE BIT BY THE COKE BROTHERS.

AND PROMOTING THOUGHTS LIKE THAT SUCH AS THE RETURN OF SUPPORTING THE RETURN OF THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP AND ASKING FOR DILMA'S IMPEACHMENT RIGHT AFTER SHE WAS ELECTED EVEN BEFORE THERE WAS AN IDEA WHAT CRIME THEY WERE GOING TO ACCUSE HER OF.

DO YOU FEEL ANY DANGER BEING A FILM MAKER LIVING IN A COUNTRY THAT'S BEING RUN BY MR. BOLSONARO NOW?

WELL, I JUST HOPE THAT WE WILL RETURN TO BETTER TIMES.

ALL RIGHT.

THANKS SO MUCH.

AND THE EDGE OF DEMOCRACY IS ON NETFLIX NOW.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW BY SIGNING UP FOR OUR DAILY PREVIEW.

VISIT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' AND JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.

♪♪

About This Episode EXPAND

Legendary journalist David Dimbleby sits down with Christiane to discuss what the next chapter will look like for the U.K. and the EU following Brexit. Kitty Green, writer and director of “The Assistant,” explains how toxic workplace culture enables predatory behavior. Oscar-nominated director of “The Edge of Democracy” Petra Costa discusses dangers to democracy in Brazil.

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