Speaker 1 He'll tell us how and when you first met James.
Speaker 2 Well, I was not a member of Jim's intimate coterie of women, mostly women they were who adored him and came to his house all the time and gave him great gossip, which he adored. But of course, I was aware of James Beard. And at one point I decided that I had classes cooking inside. Cooking classes were really big in the 70s and everybody was taking classes in the 80s. Everybody was going to the gym, probably as a result of having so many cooking classes. But I decided that I should take James Beard's famous cooking course as a friend of ours and a friend of mine, and I decided to sign up. I called and they said I could not enter the advanced class without taking the beginners class. I said, But I'm Gayle Greene. I'm a restaurant critic. I'm a cook. I cook. I said, no, you can't take the advanced class until you take the beginners class. So I was a little bit depressed about that. But OK, so we signed up for the beginners class and it was really fabulous. I remember when he was showing me how to do mayonnaise and he we were doing it by hand with a fork and he put his giant hand on top of my hand and moved it in the direction that you would move before. And I it was so heavy and so vivid that I've almost never been able to make mayonnaise in a Cuisinart. I always have to do it by hand. Well, actually, I usually use Helminths and throw in a couple of eggs, but later on he became really close. And one day this friend and I who had taken the course, invited him to dinner at my house. And the dinner we made was incredibly ambitious. We did nothing by Naomi Berry from her Tuscany cookbook and a rack of lamb and chocolate velvet. And my friend made chocolate truffles and we sat at this gorgeous table in my back room. He sat at the head and he said at the end, well, that was the richest meal I've ever had. And I thought, oh, how fabulous. And it was only the next day that I realized that probably wasn't a compliment. He actually had a way of saying things about you that were if you thought about it twice or maybe not exactly a compliment. But in 1981, when I read an article in The New York Times that said City Scrimps to feed the Aged, it was a Sunday morning, actually, right after Thanksgiving. I was having my breakfast in bed and I saw this very shabby, sad old lady sitting in front of a tray with some polyurethane cups. And it said that the city could not government funds did not cover a weekend or holiday meals. And there were 14 official holidays when the city did not deliver. They had tried to fill Christmas baskets and 95 corporations had not responded to a letter asking for goodies. And I thought, this is outrageous. You know, how can we live the way we live? I had had some terrible two hundred dollar dinner the night before, so I called Jim on the phone and he had seen the same article. I said, well, why don't we raise three hundred and forty dollars from everybody we know in the food world and see if we can't fill those Christmas baskets. And he said, well, we really should be concerned about the weekend meals. I said, Oh, well, we'll do that too. So over the weekend, I made many calls to people of the city. Over the weekend, I made many calls to restaurateurs and friends who ran the gastronomic societies and PR people. And he called Barbara Kafka and she got on the phone. And by Monday morning we had thirty five thousand dollars. So I looked in the article and it said the New York City Department for the Aging. I got on the phone and the commissioner came on the phone. I said, well, you will be really surprised what we have. Thirty five thousand dollars and some chickens and we would like to all of it to go on. For meals, not a dime will come out of this money for food stamps or a phone call because there have been a lot of bad publicity about charities raising a million dollars and spending a million and a half to raise it. So I wanted to be sure that nothing was coming out of this money. And she said, don't worry, we have administrative funds of our own and your money will go only for meals. So that year, 6000 New Yorkers had a Christmas meal who might not have otherwise. And everybody who had given was so moved and touched by this, we said, let's organize. And actually, I think it was Joel Grey who gave us the name City Meals on Wheels. And we went on from there, I think from thirty five thousand dollars to at the moment. Thirty one years, almost thirty two years later, we are raising 19 million dollars a year. So whenever we do a big benefit at Rockefeller Center, the original one was supposed to be for Jamie's birthday. And unfortunately, he died a few months before the event. But all his friends, all the chefs he had mentored and loved came and cooked. And there was pork. Three different ways that I thought if he's floating over the center tonight, he's probably laughing to see two pork rose to suckling pigs and a ham. And also, I think often have
Speaker 1 be
Speaker 2 really pleased he would be that we went on and that we have continued and thousands and thousands of New Yorkers feel the same way about feeding the homebound elderly that we did.
Speaker 1 Then where were you when you heard
Speaker 2 I didn't put in any period.
Speaker 1 Where were you when you heard that James died? How did you hear about it? I don't remember. Was it surprising the two chefs who
Speaker 2 co-founded with us co-founded the event in Rockefeller Center, Jonathan Waxman and Larry Forgione
Speaker 1 we're
Speaker 2 so sorry, Jonathan Waxman and Larry Forbes Young were the two chefs who were helping us put together that first event. And it was Larry who spent a lot of time with James Beard and adored him and was very influenced by him. Use many of his recipes in in this restaurant, an American place. It was Larry who spent time with him and I think told me that he had died. And so we decided to do it as a tribute to James Beard. And it was it was at that time, there were not many other food charities. And it was very exciting. It was the first walk around charity eating event in New York City. We modeled it after Wolfgang's in L.A., but we charge more money
Speaker 1 for an interview. You dine with Team Spirit often. Did he ever help you with your reviews for New York magazine? No, no.
Speaker 2 I dined with him actually in San Francisco when I went out to dinner, when I was when I was going to Napa Valley to be in the great chef's cooking course at Mondavi Winery. I often spent the first night in San Francisco and he would be there occasionally. And we did have one incredible lunch together. It was my only lunch at Alice Waters and Chez. Yes, I was going for one second. I just made a mistake
Speaker 1 in this lady just needs to get her phone. Do you want to come and get it? Yeah. There we go. That's OK. Just take anyone I want in there. Ready. You were talking about Chez Panisse.
Speaker 2 All right. That was a big event. And we were all together for a while, Napa Valley. And then we were back in San Francisco and sorry. We were. How sorry? Oh, actually, it was my first visit to shape and this and I knew Alice Waters, but I had never eaten a Japanese. And I was with James and Harley Baldwin. And we sat upstairs in the cafe and she said, I have the most incredible scallops in this shell, but I only have three. And of course, in those days, there were no scallops in the shell in the east, on the East Coast, all the scallops were shelled at sea and Washington brine and whatever. So this was something extraordinary and rare. And about that big, the shell was that big and the skull was about it. But it was it was thrilling. And then came a perfect salad. And so I think of him at that lunch. I think American cookery came out in there. I don't know what you're talking about, but I was in my thing when American cookery came out. I think it was a little bit ahead of its time. And James Beard was the one who had introduced Americans along with Julia Child to French cooking because American cooking was not considered chic or advanced or sophisticated. And the idea that he would put everything he knew about American food into this one book was interesting and exciting, but it was much more exciting later when American chefs suddenly arrived on the scene. In the beginning, when I became a restaurant critic in 1968, there were no American chefs, you know, by name. There was a sous chef at the Four Seasons, which was the American restaurant of New York. And later on, when chefs started coming out of the Culinary Institute and realized that you could you could make a wonderful life as as a cook, that it was exciting to go to the Culinary Institute, perhaps to go to Harvard. That was the moment when the James Beard book and the reissuing of Jim's book really became important. And we saw it in its fold. You know, we saw the glory of it.
Speaker 1 Thank you. What can you tell me about this picture?
Speaker 2 Well, I hope this is a picture that's on my desk, actually, I look at all the time and I guess half the time I don't see it because it's on my desk all the time. But this, I believe, is James Beard and me at the Four Seasons. And I think it was a celebration of the Literary Guild's fiftieth anniversary. And they had the authors that they had published in all those years ago. And we're we're sipping champagne. Well, there was a lot of sipping champagne always
Speaker 1 in your book. You actually remember you said that James Beard always said that champagne was great, if I'm paraphrasing it, after effect to overindulgence.
Speaker 2 Well, yes. As a matter of fact, Jim thought that champagne was the perfect thing to get over a hangover.
Speaker 1 Q You also said once that too much of James Beard is just enough for me. What did you mean by that?
Speaker 2 I always say that too much of anything is just too much of anything wonderful is just enough for me because that's why they call me insatiable.
Speaker 1 Would you mind repeating that phrase? Too much of James Beard is just an opening to the camera.
Speaker 2 So too much of James Beard or raspberries or bacon or a chocolate mousse is just enough for me. That's because too much of anything good is just enough for me. That's why they call me insatiable.
Speaker 1 This is my last question. I'm going to hand you over to Beth quickly. But is it true that you were the first person to use the word foodie? And if that is true, what did it mean when you first used it? And what do you feel it means now?
Speaker 2 I'm sure I said foodie a lot to describe myself and my friends. We were early foodies before there really was that word. And according to our friend, who is the CEO of Lamb dot com, I was the first person to use food and he actually did a search and found the article and found the use. And I can't remember what it was, but
Speaker 1 it's James Beard, a foodie. And it's a stupid question, but
Speaker 2 I'm not going to answer it.
Speaker 1 OK, why?
Speaker 2 Why such a stupid question? I'm not going to.
Speaker 1 Oh, we're being interesting. I mean I
Speaker 2 mean, I don't want to answer that question is a great writer and people today don't like it at all. Time is on the porn list. Well, what good is porn words?
Speaker 1 I think that's who cares? Michael White said we're not making this film for the people who were making this film.
Speaker 2 OK, but all that's good, right? So I'm not answering the question, if you don't mind. It's a stupid question and the answer would be stupid.
Speaker 1 I like to know because I know that's OK, but I'm going to hand it over to you. I was just and you might have already because I couldn't hear. You might want to. What time is it? We're at four, so. OK, you're good. Thank you. OK. And some of this is just and some folks you may never have known. But, you know, we want to also talk about folks that he knew. So it sounds like you did you spent some time in San Francisco with him also out there doing.
Speaker 2 Yes. A little bit. And he said that this is sad because.
Speaker 1 Yes, temperature. Did you know, Jim? Because I met him through Jim. OK, so can you talk a little bit about those cooking classes in my school?
Speaker 2 And I don't know anything about them, OK? I never saw them.
Speaker 1 OK, George Jones.
Speaker 2 I hardly know her. She's very snobby.
Speaker 1 Barbara Kafka. Barbara Kafka.
Speaker 2 I do know Barbara Kafka very well. She's an incredible force of intelligence and good sense and worked as a consultant along with Jim to Gelbaum at Restaurant Associates. And I know that Jim just trusted her completely.
Speaker 1 And then you knew her.
Speaker 2 I don't know if she. OK. OK, you talk to her.
Speaker 1 We do a phone interview.
Speaker 2 She's great. I haven't seen her for quite a while, but I count her among the founders of City Meals on Wheels.
Speaker 1 And do you know her name? Any of the relationship to starting the foundation? I think she was one of the.
Speaker 2 Well, I want to say something. Sure. That you you know, whatever you decide to say, Julia Child did not start the James Beard Foundation. She had nothing to do with the creation of the James Beard Foundation. Peter Come and some other friends of Jim's who were in the house after they had the auction and sold everything in the house, he decided that even though Jim had donated the house, left the house in his will to Reed College, that it would be a wonderful place to have a kind of a foundation that would honor chefs and help chefs. And they describe their plan to Julia. And she said, oh, that's a good idea. And from that moment on, they said that Julia. A child founded the James Beard Foundation. Don't they like that?
Speaker 1 Can you were you at the office? Can you talk a little?
Speaker 2 No, I didn't. I didn't. I couldn't hear. No, I did.
Speaker 1 Where were you when he passed away?
Speaker 2 I don't know what you thought. I have not. I have no idea where I was. And he was in the hospital and I was somewhere.
Speaker 1 And were you around when they
Speaker 2 have the auction? I knew they were having an auction and I was not there. I wanted to have I wanted to buy the pig. The copper pig. Can you talk about. I was actually kind of hurt. He didn't leave me sometimes he didn't
Speaker 1 leave, but he. Let me talk about the cover of the what? The copper pig.
Speaker 2 It was a mold copper mold. Yeah, I collect molds. And that was more beautiful than any that I have.
Speaker 1 You know where he got it.
Speaker 2 You know where he goes. I'm leaving people many things by my name in my in my last letters to whoever takes care of my belongings. Yes. But anyway, I think that Jim very well occasionally when I have come to events at the house. And I realize we're sitting right in Jim's shower. I think to myself how annoyed he would
Speaker 1 be
Speaker 2 still with dogs and Philistines
Speaker 1 eating at his house.
Speaker 2 I think he would really laugh really. On the other hand, he could be really also thrilled to have his name be so important and be attached to something like the James Beard Awards, which mean a great deal to chefs. There was nothing like it before. I think it's extraordinary. Chefs cry when they don't get the award. It's very moving. And probably he would be pleased, even though he didn't envision it
Speaker 1 back to the to the pig. Why do you think that that was such a special hopper pig that you wanted it so that you that that's the thing that you said that you would like to have, that you
Unidentified wish I liked your eggs. Do you have any insight to why you think that?
Speaker 1 He did not specify.
Speaker 2 He was to his friends. I think he, you know, Jim had several serious illnesses and was in the hospital and you often thought he might be on his last moments, but he actually had eight lives and he survived again and again. And I remember him saying to me when he got out of the hospital after one particularly bad time is that he was not allowed to eat salt. And he said to me, if you can't eat what you want to eat, what's the point in living? And I agree totally. I do. I think he probably just ate what he wanted to eat as soon as he got home.
Speaker 1 Exactly. Did you know Clay Triplett?
Speaker 2 Well, yes, of course. I don't really know Clay, but a play was in the clay was in the house, and he was charming and very seemed to adore Jim. And I love that the foundation kept him on afterwards. I thought that was wonderful.
Speaker 1 What about Jeno?
Speaker 2 I didn't really know Gino. I guess I didn't realize Gino was Dino, but one of my favorite restaurants was afraid of the Nazis. Trattoria Alfredo and Jim used to have lunch there every day sitting in the window so you could go by and see James Beard having lunch. And I knew that Gino made the oops, I'm forgetting the name of the cake. I can't remember the name of the cake. Oh, Gino made a special cake that the only dessert that Alfredo had at the Treasury.
Speaker 1 And what about Karl Jerome? Did you ever meet Karl sort of you?
Speaker 2 No, not my kind of guy. Why? I don't know. It's not your business.
Speaker 1 So we can't tell the full story.
Speaker 2 Well, a of other people will tell you about them. I don't know him.
Speaker 1 OK. Did you ever talk about him? I mean, they had a complicated
Speaker 2 never talked about him or to him, much that I can remember
Speaker 1 about his mom. Did he ever talk about his mom to you or use her influence?
Speaker 2 I don't think so. I have a terrible memory, but I don't think so.
Speaker 1 What about Marion Cunningham?
Speaker 2 Oh, I knew Mary Cunningham. I met her in California. She was fabulous when I met her when she came to the house to promote her cookbook. She was wonderful. And he obviously adored her.
Speaker 1 And of course, the Helen Evans Brown would have been before she passed away, before you would have to be able to shoot. Does he ever speak of her? They were very good friends. She was also a West Coast writer.
Speaker 2 No, I don't remember that for sure.
Speaker 1 Did he ever speak of her, did you ever meet her? Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2 Oh yes, I did. That's one of your favorite stories to
Speaker 1 tell a good story.
Speaker 2 I came into the dining room, I think, at the hotel, and there was Jim having lunch with, I believe, gymnastics and a woman. And they said, oh, you know, Mary Frances. And I said, well, no, actually, I don't. And he said, Well, this is the famous Mary Frances Fisher. I said, I really. So he said, and this is Gayle Greene who writes so extravagantly or it was one of those things where you weren't sure that it was a compliment. And she said, oh, well, I'm having a problem with my subscription. I said, well, if you will send me the little sticker from the front of the magazine, I'll take care of it. That was my introduction, but later on, we did a one of our later on one of our big events later on, one of the big events at Rockefeller Center Garden, the annual JOUNI event for city meals, was it honoring the legends? And we invited Mary Frances Chirchir and she came. It was the most amazing collection of the great food people of that time. Who else was there? Who said, well, I won't remember all these names. Maury Klein from Zabar's, George Lang, I think Joe Bohm. I have a picture of them all standing in front of the statue of Prometheus sitting. I think I'm even in the picture on the end.
Speaker 1 So I don't know if Kathleen already asked for this, but just paint a picture for us what the world was like. I mean, food is so hot right now and it was starting to we're starting to see the beginnings of that, I think, in this in the Four Seasons 59, but the 60s and the 70s, really, the theater and the fabulousness of people paint a picture for us. And we want people to feel the excitement that you felt
Unidentified in this world and paint a picture was
Speaker 1 what was New York like back then? I mean, people who were not, you know, all over the place, they weren't going to the West Village. I mean.
Speaker 2 Well, in the 60s when I first discovered food, seriously, food eating out a lot and on my honeymoon in Italy made a huge and difficult detour to go to a three star restaurant called The Pyramid. You didn't have a clue what it was all about, but a friend of ours had been in the army in France and he explained to us about Michelin stars and he said we should go to the pyramids. So we had in it my husband, my then husband and I had an amazing and astonishing evening at the pyramid. The second the owner had died and that was there. She looked at us as we entered and sneered because we were just two little high school children. She thought, I mean, I don't know what we were. He looked like he looked like a high school senior. And but we they did give us a seat and we sat down and we had this famous one
Speaker 1 is
Speaker 2 the brioche cut out in the middle with the foie gras and little basket of incredible vegetables sauteed, just caramelized in port, a great fish. And then what I call southern fried duck. It seemed to be crammed with mustard and fried, but in fact, it was roasted in their coal oven. They had a wheelbarrow full of coal and that the oven and my husband, of course, it was feeling very insecure, decided to order a famous burgundy. So he ordered a twenty dollar bottle, half bottle, twenty dollar a half bottle of whiskey work. And the sommelier almost fainted because most of the people who came to the pyramid, they had the one dollar white wine, which we had had two, and then they would have Beaujolais or something inexpensive. So for him to handle this precious twenty, twelve or a bottle, which today would be, the whole bottle would probably be five thousand dollars, he was very excited and we let him have a taste. I went and then at the after the Gotho Marshall Plan, which was this amazing cake of twenty two very chocolate layers, different textures that Craig Claiborne spent years trying to get the recipe and finally did, and all the little cookies and candies and sorbets and so on. Are we staggered out of the restaurants. Are going to the. To the. President leaning into each other, totally sloshed, blissed out, and I thought to myself, I have to think of a way to make enough money to do this more. So that's how I decided I would try to write about food and freelance. At that time. I was a newspaper reporter at The New York Post. My husband and I were both at The New York Post. So that was the beginning of my wanting to write about food. So I was a very early foodie. There were not a lot of people, but I didn't need everyone there where I met many people who are members of the Burgundy's society and the only men were in the Bordeaux society. That was very annoying. But we tended when we what later went to France, would sometimes see the same people in the same obvious places. But in 1968, when I went to in 1968, when Clay Felker asked me to be the restaurant critic of New York magazine, and I said I couldn't afford to do it because they weren't paying enough money. And he said that's what people are begging to be, the critic of New York magazine so that we can pick up the check for all their meals. And I said, oh, my God. Well, OK. But at that time, there were no is that as I had said, there were no American chefs in New York that anyone knew by name. There were no baby vegetables. There were perhaps five or six fishes that you would ever see in a fancy restaurant. And then Hospers, King of the Sea, you know, would have halibut and a few other trash fish. The. I don't know if there was a culinary institute. I think Larry for John was one of the early graduates. I don't really know when it began, but I had to, but I just wasn't sure. But I had been eating and obsessing about restaurants in New York City for a long time. So I decided and Craig Claiborne was my idol and I read his work the minute the paper arrived and ended his life. So I decided to have the same rules that Craig had that was to go three times, pay the bill, take multiples of people and be anonymous if possible. So that's how my world in food began. And as people read New York, I think New York magazine had a really powerful effect on people and their ideas about food. They suddenly realized that food could be theater or that it was seduction, either financial seduction or romantic seduction. And I began to think about eating in another way. Thanks to cookbooks like Craig's and James Spears, which were particularly meant for men, men and women started to cook and become interested in food. And they went to France carrying the magazine and tried to order the same dishes that I loved. So it was beginning to say that the late middle 70s people became quite interested in food.
Unidentified Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 If I'm repeating I'm sorry because I couldn't hear anything that Kathleen was asking you. What do you think you talked a little bit about? Yeah, well, James would think about the awards today and the foundation. And you mentioned they might be appalled that people were kind of funny coming to the dinners. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2 Well, I already did. You did. I talked about the dinner. I said he would think they were. Felicity, why would you. I'm not going to say that. I'm not saying that. I'm sorry. That's a stupid thing to ask. You don't have to ask about Alex. He was a snob. And then I do. I think that he would be thrilled to see what his name means, what all those chefs with their medals, with his head on their on their chests and how much it means to them and how much it means to be a chef today. After all, food mattered to him a great deal. And I hope the madness that we have reached is both good in many ways and a little bit crazy and others.
Speaker 1 Why do you think it's crazy?
Speaker 2 Yeah, well, I think that all those people who are who are allergic to gluten, who aren't allergic to gluten and eat it and have to go without it anyway are kind of sad. I think there are people that are afraid to eat because they might gain an ounce. There's an obsession about who goes both ways. There's also, of course, all the people who have nothing, not enough to eat. And I think that's something, you know, when we think about how far we've advanced in sophistication about food and dining out and the variety of restaurants that you have in New York at this moment and in small towns, the kinds of chefs working across the country, you have to think about people who are unemployed and living in their car or women who work two jobs. And it's still not enough to rent an apartment in New York City. And they just need all their money to feed their children. And somebody just cancelled food stamps. So it's I think he would be probably shocked at how far that hunger has evolved.
Speaker 1 I was going to ask you about that because you know and you know better than I. But from what I've read, it wasn't particularly an activist. But I think that one one, he did an oral history in Oregon in the 70s and he talked about his concern about the fact that land and. Property that people had to grow things on was getting gobbled up and that was a little bit worried about that, the amount of arable land was getting so reduced that we were going to start to see kind of these big giant pockets of poverty, which I think we saw in the public housing. We saw places like Chicago, New York, where people had not a big house, but they had a little house and maybe had a backyard they could grow things in. And then the city would buy that up. And they got kind, of course, to go into the housing project that was supposed to be this modern thing. But then they had no way to feed themselves at all or grow anything themselves. He said all that and did say that. And I think that we've seen that happen. What do you think you would think about the district, the food desert, if you will, the places in this country now where people don't have no option to grow anything of their own? He grew up with a mom who they moved tons of things in their own backyard.
Speaker 2 Well, actually, farms are coming back. Until then,
Speaker 1 I like that you talked about the hunger in this country. I think part of that is that people do not have that kind of control over their own food production. If you have no options,
Speaker 2 although I'm sorry people would not be growing food, they have to work 20 hours a day to make enough money.
Speaker 1 I agree, too. So they might have a community garden that they could go and be part of which we're starting to see a little bit.
Speaker 2 Well, unfortunately, they don't have gardens at homeless shelters
Speaker 1 exactly as schedule. Oh, I guess so. I, I just started working on this project and I don't really even know for myself. James Beard is. So can you in your own words, just tell me who is James Beard?
Speaker 2 Isn't that what this is all about.
Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. But in wrote own words to the to the alien.
Speaker 2 Well, yes, I always thought of James Beard as the big daddy of the food world. He got us started and excited about it. And for many of us, it was James Beard who excited us to cook before Julia Child came along. And and he never he never got. And in the end, he was so excited. It was. And in the end, he was aware of hunger and the need to help people who didn't have enough to eat. And in fact, when I thought about raising money for those people who were not getting weekend and holiday meals, I thought to go only to food people, people in the food world, professionals and and fans, because I thought they would not have they could not accept us. I could not people starving while they were living so well.
Speaker 1 And what is he what does he mean to the food industry as it is today? Like how what is the importance he's had his legacy, his legacy. Yeah. I think in your opinion, where do you see him kind of cropping up and what people are talking about today?
Speaker 2 Well, if you look in Barney's window when they did this great food people of the world, it was James Beard, Julia Child. And I forget who the others were, but they didn't even have Craig Claiborne. That's how stupid they were, the Supreme. Yes, it was one of the founding fathers of the eating well and loving it and carrying on about it and how important just the last and gossiping about the other people who are doing it.
Speaker 1 How important is his legacy today, though? Like how how how does he have such a huge impact
Speaker 2 on how he would probably be meaningless today if it were not for the James Beard Foundation? I mean, he might have faded away just like Greg Laybourne did. So this is it. While it has been wonderful for chefs and honoring chefs and focusing on the importance of cooking well and doing well, I don't want to talk about that.
Speaker 1 I don't like that sense. That's right. One last thing. When you hear about
Speaker 2 you'll know when you finish. Yeah. And it won't be me saying it.
Speaker 1 And when you hear, like, people talking about sustainability and farm to table and be local and regional and ethnic, do you hear him? No. You don't hear
Speaker 2 him because I don't have a very good memory. I don't know who said what. It's only I you know, I wrote a memoir. I looked in my articles to find out what happened that day. We were having recessions all the time and were becoming bestrode bistro's instead of grand cafes. I had the most selective memory possible. It's very sad, but it's good enough, you know, to fill a whole book.