AMERICAN MASTERS PODCAST

Joan Baez with Dar Williams

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American folk music icon Joan Baez began her singer-songwriting career during the 1960s counterculture movement. Listen in on this conversation between Baez and fellow singer-songwriter Dar Williams as they share anecdotes about life on the road together, their musical collaborations and how they’ve influenced each other’s lives and art. This never-before-heard interview is from the cutting room floor of award-winning filmmaker Mary Wharton’s Joan Baez: How Sweet the Sound (2009).

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Joan Baez: I want to ask Miss Dar what she felt about our co-mentoring little trip.

Dar Williams: Uhm.. I-- let’s see. I- I think it was a very vivid time of my life, because it was the, you know, launch into-to-to to everything that- that I have now. And- and it was uhm.. I remember getting the news that ah.. you wanted me to sing with you on this album where other people were singing with you, but it was the Indigo Girls and Mary Chapin Carpenter and Janis Ian and then little ol’ me. And- and I think, you know, what my manager said was, “Joan is interested in- in you as a person who doesn’t have this, you know, radio thing going yet. Or, you know, you’re starting out, but you’re working really hard and you’re- and you’re a songwriter who’s- who believes in the power of songs.” And- and I said, “Well, I got that from her.” So ah.. I ah.. so I remember hearing that you were going to take this- this risk with me. And then I- I tried to tamp it all down when I went to the Bottom Line and- and met you. And I said something like, “I’m just going to try to pretend you’re not who you are and that this isn’t really happening, s-so that we could just get some work done.” And you said something like, “Well, good.” And we got to work and we sang that night on stage and ah.. and then my manager, who was really into this, you know, “Don’t get a big head” thing, said, “They’re interested in having you come to Europe with them, ah.. Joan and her- her gang.

Joan Baez: And you said, “Oh, that’s nice.”

Dar Williams: And I said, “Okay. Well, that’s going to be some good work.”

Joan Baez: Breathe.

Dar Williams: I’m really excited about that. And, you know, with my heart racing. And then you took me to Europe and uhm.. and then the United States. I mean, ev- so many people who see me now say that that was the first concert. I mean, so many people now say that those were the first times that they saw me. And it’s 15, no 12 years later now.

Joan Baez: Yeah, yep.

Dar Williams: So th-that was a huge deal and also, you know, how you were on tour, how gracious you were and how humane you were on the bus. You know, none of this diva stuff influenced, you know, my- my whole like keeping down the diva quotient, which turned out, I think, to be a good way to be a professional.

Joan Baez: And useful.

Dar Williams: Yeah. So- so that was ah.. again, I don’t really know. You can get- you can believe your own press in such a way that people just don’t want to work with you anymore, because they don’t. And so I ah.. but I saw the way you interacted, you know, took everybody in and found a place for them and helped them find a place for themselves, and including me. So uhm.. so that was actually as much a part of the- the big picture as- as ah.. all of the venues and things that we did together.

Joan Baez: Well you were lovely. You were wonderful to work with and our relationship on stage was one of teasing each other, basically. I’d call you the-- you’d call me the matriarch and I’d call you “young whipper snapper.” Or, in your case, “whippa snappa.”

Dar Williams: Right. Remember when you made me-- see, I shave my armpits to this day.

Joan Baez: You do?

Dar Williams: Yeah

Joan Baez: Oh, good. No lapses.

Dar Williams: No, no. I’m- I’m ah.. you know, I don’t think I ever, you know, I- there was a principle at work with not shaving my armpits, but I don’t think that was-- and- but you ah.. you made me ah.. shave my armpits with ah.. Richard Shindell’s razor at the Chicago Symphony. And then you announced to a sold out audience at the Chicago Symphony that I’d ah.. shaved my armpits. And then you made me show them, so...

Joan Baez: Were they delighted?

Dar Williams: Yeah, of course they were.

Joan Baez: Of course they are. Any irregularity like that.

Dar Williams: And so, actually, you know, when- when ah.. journalists- when journalists said, “What did you learn from Joan Baez?” I would say, before- this was actually, this was when I still hadn’t succumb to the razor. But they would say, you know, “Traveling with Joan Baez, you must have learned a great deal.” And I said, “Yeah. She’s such a good shopper and she taught me all of the- the- the things that you can travel with that travel really well and also that look good on stage.” And they would just sit there with their pens poised.

Joan Baez: But waiting for the big one, huh?

Dar Williams: Yeah. They didn’t-- and I said, “Really. And she’s really funny. And sh- it really teaches me how to be on the road, you know. She just makes it, you know, a really fun, beautiful experience being on the road. And- and she has a standard, but she’s also very flexible.” And- and ah.. they still wouldn’t write anything. And I’d say, “And of course, she’s been a very influential activist.” And they’re like, “Okay.”

Joan Baez: There we are, tainted.

Dar Williams: And then they’d start and I’d say, “You know, Vaclav Havel said that- that- that her concert was one of the reasons that the revolution was nonviolent.

Joan Baez: And they said, “Huh?”

Dar Williams: No, no, no. They loved it. They- they wrote that one down.

Joan Baez: I thought maybe they wouldn’t know who he was, so...

Dar Williams: And of course, you didn’t tell me that story. The tour manager told us that story. But then you told us the story about how there was a poet and they said, you know, “Whatever you do, as you play here in Czechoslovakia all locked down and not wanting this revolution. Whatever you do, don’t have this dissident poet up on stage.” And I remember when you told the story, you were- you said, “So, of- of course, we had him on the stage. And they cut the electricity and so everybody just turned on, I guess, their flashlights and their lighters and he spoke. It was- it was great.”

Joan Baez: Yeah, it was.

Dar Williams: And I think that was, you know, when they finally let the power of the revolution happen.

Joan Baez: It was when it started, for sure. I mean, actually Havel would say it was the last drop in the- in the glass before it spilled over. Uhm.. and I- I was planning up in- in our room, up in my hotel room with Havel, whom I just had met. I said, “How are we going to make mischief?” We call it mischief. And- and so we first of all started-- he said a whole bunch of words that I could do syllables to if I had something in my ear and I had the tape recorder here. And they were saying something basic about Charter 77. And then I would say, in Czech, “And my friend, Vaclav Havel.” Eeee! The house went crazy, because he’s not supposed to be there. And then a little later I said, “Oh yes. I’m going to take a little break and I believe you have a singer here named Ivan Hoffman?” And the audience didn’t even know what to do. They didn’t believe it. He hadn’t sung anywhere for four years. And so he came up on the stage. He took forever setting up. He was this gaunt, very serious guy. He isn’t actually, it turns out, that he was so knocked out with that date and he got out his guitar and he sang something ferociously. I mean, it was maybe two verses. I was astounded before they cut their microphone. And then he just beamed. You know, he had done it. And then the audience understood and they went crazy again, so...

Dar Williams: Unbelievable.

Joan Baez: Yeah.

Dar Williams: Ah.. you know, that- that- that moment where you say, “You know what? Why not? Why not just let this happen?” And- and I mean, that was- that was a powerful-- that- that-- it was funny, because I was, you know, when- when you and I traveled together we were on the bus. And you brought me up to the front and you said, “Let me tell you a little bit about myself.” I mean, it was that kind of, you know, let me-- I’ll give you this sort of the crash course on- on who I am so you know who you’re traveling with. I mean, it was that kind of ah.. because--

Joan Baez: Who did I say I was?

Dar Williams: You said you were a person who had done a lot of therapy.

Joan Baez: Since I knew you would relate?

Dar Williams: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Because I- I- there was always talk about how I was in therapy, so you must have known. But you know, you said- you said, you know, you had done so much and then you had worked through so much and that that was a big part of who- who you were, you know. And- and that I- you were still integrating all of this, you know, that you had of course been a such a- a—

Joan Baez: Neurotic twit.

Dar Williams: Ah.. n-no, I don’t think you called-- I do- I do remember when you would see these young, these sort of 20-somethings starting ah.. out who were thrust into the spotlight early on. And you would look at them and say, “Oh, I- I can see what she’s- what she’s going through.” I mean, you had, you know. I- it sort of maybe you did- maybe you went through therapy to help yourself, because I think you had a lot of wisdom about other people. You recognized that these young people who had been thrust in the spotlight really early and who were expected to shoulder it as if they’d been doing it for a long time and it was like a yolk on their shoulders. And- and ah.. there were some- there were some people I know who met you, like my sister who, you know, said, “I’m not worthy.” And you were really great about that. You didn’t- you di-- you said, “Oh, thank you,” and didn’t make her walk away saying, “Oh!”

Joan Baez: Why did I do that?

Dar Williams: And then- but then there were some guys who would come at you who were just, you know, needing more from you than- than they should have. And I would just see you kind of turn- tilt your head and- and know exactly what that was and sort of cut off the energy and excuse yourself.

Joan Baez: Cut off my own brain.

Dar Williams: And it was, you know, so- so you had a lot of wisdom, but you described yourself as a person who was still really interested in what was going on inside and- and ah.. and I could tell, actually.

Joan Baez: I think you ought to tell about when you banged your head on the way to the concert. This is a wonderful story.

Dar Williams: Well, I’m short. And so usually people look when there’s, you know, at the tops of doors. But this one was really low.

Joan Baez: Where it says, “Be careful, low.”

Dar Williams: Yeah, yeah. Don’t hit your head on this piece of concrete. So I- so I ah.. yeah. So I hit my head so hard and then during my set or your set did we ask if there was a doctor in the house?

Joan Baez: Well before you were so terrified. I found you weeping in your room.

Dar Williams: Oh yeah.

Joan Baez: And this big bulge in your forehead. I said, “What is it?” And you said, “I hit my head.” But your fear was that I would fire you.

Dar Williams: Oh.

Joan Baez: You said, “Since you’re going to do something,” that I was going to be upset or whatever. I said, “Dar, don’t be a dope.” And then what, put something on your head or--?

Dar Williams: Right, right. Maybe I thought I’d lobotomize. But you know, I- I was nervous all the time. And then finally I said something like, “Are you mad at me?” And you, I think it was during sort of like you were taking a break from one song. I mean, it was like this little window of time and you just- but you stopped and you said, “Have I ever been mad at you?” Because I kept on saying those kind of neurotic things like, “Have I disappointed you, Queenie?” And ah.. and finally you said, “Have I ever been mad at you?” And, you know, there I was in my long skirt and my prim little shirt with my severe haircut. No, no. She really- we really get along. So ah.. yeah, no. I think I was nervous about that ah.. I was. Well, I remember just one day walking around some like parking lot of a hotel thinking, “This is like a dream and- and yet I know it’s like a dream right now. It’s not even one of those things where I’ll take the pictures in my head and suddenly someday realize how incredible that was. I know it right now.” I mean, I’d never been in that kind of spotlight before and yet look what, you know, look what you all did for me. You know, getting me up on a tour bus and giving me the lay of the land and the best bunk and- and ah.. these wonderful stages where you would-- One of the first places we performed was uhm.. in Charlotte, North Carolina where you sang Amazing Grace and on the third verse, they lit up the lights behind the stain glass windows so that the whole audience was sort of bathed in this reverent light and- and ah.. I just thought, “Wow! This is- this is really too good. I mean, this is- this is ah.. this is a dream.” So it was- it was a very impor-- I mean, I rem-- I think I remember every single thing about that- that tour.

Joan Baez: And you were a delight. I mean, not everybody is. You were not low maintenance. You were no maintenance, which is wonderful. And on top of that, you’re fun to hang out with. I remember you taking heaps of supplements. I remember that.

Dar Williams: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I guess I take different supplements now. I still have a bit of that. But uhm.. the ah.. I remember actually in terms of no maintenance

Joan Baez: Uh-huh.

Dar Williams: I had these little hobo shoes that ah.. you know, that you know, laced up and were all kind of scuffy. And- and I loved them and I thought they were very chic. And ah.. and I went to your room one night with the rest of the band. We were all there like-

Joan Baez: I’m awful.

Dar Williams: Yeah. You were sort of like Julie Andrews in all of this. A-and ah.. so we were all hanging out and then we all left and I went back to my room and realized I’d left my shoes there. And I thought, “Ah, I’ll deal with that later.” And the next morning I woke up and there were my shoes right in front of my door with a little note that said, “Miss Dar. You need to go shopping. Otherwise, you’re perfect. Love, Baez.” And you were right. They were awful. It was ah.. it was worse than Charlie Chaplin.

Joan Baez: Well, it’s those stages coming out of what we were and what you think you’re supposed to be and what image you are, and at least for me anyway, and then the steps out of that. That you think you’re betraying something, you’re betraying your feet or whatever. And then little by little it just shifts.

Dar Williams: Right.

Joan Baez: And you get more comfortable in a different way.

Dar Williams: Yeah. And that was, you know, ah.. I don’t ah.. this is a ah.. well, this is important to me, so-- but it was, you know, actually there were a lot of-- I’ve seen a lot of folk singers talking the talk for so long and walking it, but very uncomfortably. So that after a while they’re just kind of falling apart and they’re unhappy. It’s just they’re all, you know, their anger is just coming out, blurting out the sides. And- and early on you kind of gave me this quality of life talk, you know.

Joan Baez: It was okay to wear a dress that looked--

Dar Williams: That doesn’t go down past the ground. And it’s okay to, you know, be feminine. And it’s okay to love beautiful things. And it’s okay to care about clothes and stuff. I mean, I think I was prepared to sort of transcend the material world for the sake of the cause, whatever that Big C cause was. And- and there we were, you know, laughing and ah.. shopping.

Joan Baez: Yeah.

Dar Williams: And- and—

Joan Baez: Eating meat.

Dar Williams: But uhm.. but no, it was ah.. there was that. But there- and there was also, you know, don’t deal with people who mess with you. There was a kind of like you know when they are and ah.. and you can have fun and you can be social and talk to people and not just close the door all the time, but- but you know when people are- are messing with your- your scene. You can respect your scene enough to- to know that at least. And that was another thing. You know, just keeping a little for myself. I like being generous. You’re very generous. And- and yet somehow, you know, you would- I feel like you positioned things in a way that it didn’t feel like you were giving too much and that that was important to the whole- to the whole progress of things, even though you had done so much. And that would come up here and there in idle conversations, you know, the Center for Nonviolent Studies and things like that, which is great. Those folks are still

Joan Baez: They’re still at it.

Dar Williams: --going strong, yep, in Santa Cruz.

Joan Baez: So, where are we?

Dar Williams: Music.

Joan Baez: Oh, what was that? Gorsh! You?

Dar Williams: Ah.. okay.

Joan Baez: Or, I’ll talk about you first.

Dar Williams: Either way.

Joan Baez: Just genuine, gifted, young. That’s, you know, that’s lucky for me. And- and your music was something a lot of it that I could sing. And I think as opposed to some young singers, I understood yours more, although I gave a whole schpiel on it one time, about a song you’d written. You said, “That was a really nice speech, but it has nothing to do with what my song meant. Do you remember that?

Dar Williams: Yeah.

Joan Baez: Oh, god.

Dar Williams: I remember it was the song ah.. If I Wrote You.

Joan Baez: Yeah.

Dar Williams: And ah.. and ah.. it was ah.. but that’s fu-- but I was very pleased with what you said about it. I was pleased that it could be read one way and- and ah.. and uhm.. it was ah.. it was just written differently.

Joan Baez: In other words, I didn’t have a clue. But it also makes sense to me ah.. you know, I’ve put it in some kind of constect- context and it all made sense to me. So I told the whole audience what it was about. Oooo, yeah. They thought that was great. It wasn’t until after the concert or whenever.

Dar Williams: After the concert.

Joan Baez: Yeah.

Dar Williams: Good. I probably nodded my head vigorously in front of the audience. But ah.. that was ah.. yeah, no but the- the song, If I Wrote You was written for uhm.. for a ah.. you know, it’s saying ah.. I- I just in my mind, you know, I’d encounter a lot of people with various substance abuse problems who-- and then there would be couples, you know, which was kind of ideal for the substance abuse. And then this was a song about one person pulling away.

Joan Baez: Okay.

Dar Williams: And- and looking back at another person saying, “Don’t take it personally. I didn’t do this to make you feel left behind. I just need to go forward, because the world needs, you know, what I-- the world is falling apart. I’m falling apart. I decided to show up and- and I still love you.” So- so I think your ah.. interpretation was probably very close to that.

Joan Baez: Well, what’s curious is that it doesn’t really matter, you know.

Dar Williams: Well, that’s what I thought.

Joan Baez: And whatever the song is. To me it was singable and more than singable, I mean, aside from being beautiful, which I was explaining to somebody. A song can be really beautiful but I can’t do it. It doesn’t match me. But more of your songs matched me than I think anybody else I ever took out there. So uhm.. that’s just to say that’s where I-- that’s what-- People say, “Oh, how lovely you mentored all these people.” First of all, I don’t like nouns and verbs screwed up like that. But anyway, I was a mentor to you and I say, “If you don’t co-mentor, then it’s a fake.” And listening to you now makes it very clear to me anyway how we’re co-mentoring, what you gave me and what I had to offer to you.

Dar Williams: That was very much the spirit of our- our time together, which was, you know, a huge blessing. I- I can imagine it would have probably been very different with other people. But uhm.. I was ah.. you know, we grew up listening to your music but in a very important way. Like my- my parents really, they’re really into sort of saying, “We garden. We recycle. We believe in these kinds of politics. We watch this kind of public television. And we listen to this music. And these are all really important things to do.” And, you know, there were the three Williams sisters, you know, with our short hair, but looking at you with your beautiful long hair in the songbook or on the 33’s, on the record covers. And we were just pining to be just like you. And ah.. and then uhm.. and then when I was 16, I really started to listen to the lyrics. And I said, “Wow! This is- this is sung and written as if music really does influence the way the world goes.” Even the stuff that’s about life and death, you know, just how we look at life, how we look at death, which doesn’t have anything to do with any campaigns, were sung in this way. Like this is really important. This is the stuff we look at and we’re not selling anything. And there in the ‘80s it was so-- you could- I can hear it now as a songwriter. You hear- I hear sometimes when my friends are kind of going for the brass ring. And I hear that commerce in their writing, you know. Just this kind of sell it. And here was music that was saying, “This is important because this is our identity,” you know. These are the Appalachian Mountains that, you know, that we’re singing about or my- the Blue Ridge Mountains. And ah.. the-- and even that- that album ah.. David’s album which is, you know, one of my favorites of all time. You know, you brought in the Nashville musicians and you’re just bringing out this important part of our identity that had nothing to do with, you know, guns or celluloid or anything. And it was- and it was self-aware, I thought, of that. This- this is what we do. It’s extremely important. And then when I heard it at 16 and I heard the lyrics and what you were communicating, there was this part of me that said ah.. “This is- this is all I want to do.” And another part of me said, “Sit down. You can’t do that.” So ah.. so I went in some other directions. But- but—

Joan Baez: How long? How long till you, you know, accepted yourself?

Dar Williams: Well, I- I played in a uhm.. I wrote a few songs along the way. And then finally uhm.. when I was ah.. 22, I moved to Boston and uhm.. wanted to work in the theatre. And the theatre scene was so sort of predatory and awful. But the music scene at all of the places that you played ah.. early on was thriving because that- it was all- all of those things that- that really just had the love of music and the way it pulled the community together were still there. So Passim was there. There was something called The Nameless Coffee House. I played at the Naked City Coffee House that was sort of s- a spinout of- of something else. And- and if you paid two dollars and signed your name there, you know, on the list, at 1:00 in the morning, you could play two songs and really find out how it went over, because there would be a whole audience of four people to tell you. So it was- a-and-- so I just- I wanted to be a playwright. I put that all aside. And I said, you know, actually, there’s something really wonderful and telegraphic about ah.. telling a story with fewer strokes. And- and I love that. It’s harder, but I love that. And uhm.. and I’ll stay here for a while with all of these people who-- I don’t know if you encountered that when- as you were starting out, people who told me that maybe I should get another guitar. Maybe I shouldn’t sing in falsetto. I should wear different shoes. I should maybe quit. Just--

Joan Baez: That’s helpful.

Dar Williams: A league of peers. Yeah, well, anyway. Dudes. But—

Joan Baez: Yeah.

Dar Williams: It all worked out.

Joan Baez: I didn’t- I didn’t have any of that, because whatever happened just happened and it happened very quickly.

Dar Williams: Hmmm.

Joan Baez: Uhm.. But I- I guess music-wise, it’s just so obvious what we have and did together. You know, it- it was a great deal to talk about. Uhm.. we talk about our time on stage. We talk about our time off stage. But you can see by how the- this chat has gone so far that music is certainly not the focal point of our relationship.

Dar Williams: Somebody sent you a card and he was so lovely, it was like a 14 or 15 year odl and he was like “I love you and I love all your albums, and I love your voice and I just have one question, what was going on in that cover of one of your albums?” And we saw the visual and he said “Did you lose a bet”. And I don’t remember which one it was but you were in some aviator suit I think.

Joan Baez: Yeah.

Dar Williams: And ah.. and I think the tour manager turned to you and said, “Well, Joan, did you lose a bet?” And you said, “Quaaludes.”

Joan Baez: Yeah. I guess you can say it. That’s the only thing that could explain that cover.

Dar Williams: But it was that, you know, it was ah.. you know, if there was an honest moment, you know. I just knew you as- as, you know, eating your apples and walking around barefoot in organic gardens of California. And- and- and here you were, you know, just laying it out. But you were very, very funny. There was one 19-year-old boy who ah.. who had a big crush on me. Who- who came up on the- the- the tour bus and said like, “The back stage is all ready. We’ve made it all ready for all of you.” And he kept on sort of looking over at me. And you said, “Oh, I remember those.” And all the young men who used to--

Joan Baez: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dar Williams: Actually, I’m not going to go into that story, but—

Joan Baez: That’s all right. But that’s a wonderful story. The guy-- were we in France?

Dar Williams: Yeah. There was one guy, yeah. I’m sorry about that one, Joan.

Joan Baez: There’s a guy-- No, that’s wonderful.

Dar Williams: He was-- well, it wasn’t for you, as it turned out.

Joan Baez: Oh, that’s all right. He- he-- I didn’t realize that anybody would be looking at anybody but me. That was so terrific about it. This guy had presents and they were always for Dar. And he had his combination of a-- Dar, I don’t know what the-- it was a French accent?

Dar Williams: Yeah, he was French.

Joan Baez: And she’d get- he would get the chocolates for Dar . Chocolate for Dar. Chocolate for Dar. And we’d think, “Oh, what about me?”

Dar Williams: He said that one time he kind of pushed you out of the way.

Joan Baez: Yes, he did.

Dar Williams: Chocolates for Dar. And you were standing there and he had to kind of, you know, physically brush you aside. And that was-- yeah, I remember you--

Joan Baez: Did I smack him or did I just--?

Dar Williams: No. You let him go. You had an agenda. So, and you said, but you were very gracious, you know. You said, “Wow, I’ve never seen that guy smile before.”

Joan Baez: That’s true.

Dar Williams: I said, “Jo--“ and you said, “And he’s never waved to me like that before.” And I was standing right behind you when he did it. I said, “Joan.” And you know, that was hard. I was, you know, 27 or 28 and I thought, “I don’t know if I can say this, but I, you know, the truth is the truth.” And ah.. so yeah. That- that was. I don’t remember that sweet guy’s name, but it was true. He was very ah.. he was very serious.

Joan Baez: Taken, taken with you.

Dar Williams: And then he changed. I remember all the guys ah.. dancing in Paris and all of the- the- all of these guys wanting to dance with you and- and saying--

Joan Baez: Where did we dance in Paris?

Dar Williams: “Joan Baez, you are the coolest white woman in the Western Hemisphere.”

Dar Williams: The thing about- the thing about being on the- the ah.. the bus with you is that that was- everything was out in the open. And somebody said something about, you know, Joan Baez, well she’s a very serious person. I thought, “Are you kidding?” And, you know, because sometimes people, I mean, you were very funny and it wasn’t just like funny in your own world or funny with your friends. I mean, it was just- it was like a real party on the bus. And so I said, “I- I don’t know if I’m breaking some rule, but she’s really not that- that serious. I wouldn’t- that wouldn’t be my first word and her principals are serious.” But ah.. but it was ah.. it was just- it was just all fun. And ah.. and it wasn’t- I didn’t feel mentored. So that was- that was a big thing. Like I kind of felt like my voice was valued so I could kind of prance up and down and do whatever I wanted to do and- and ah.. so you got to see that. Oh, I have a Joan story. I know the Joan story.

Joan Baez: Okay.

Dar Williams: I mean, you know, thinking at it. It’s . Uhm.. I actually remember being in your- in your kitchen playing you the beginnings of the song I was writing about Daniel and Phillip Barrigan [sp?]. And it was great. I mean, I felt comfortable enough that I sort of sang you these snippets and I said, “Well, I want to put in this thing, these lines about how uhm.. that- that Phillip wrote in his book.” He said that when ah.. Dan Barrigan went to Vietnam with Howard Zinn and somebody else, they went as sort of a peacekeeping or a witnessing trio and- and as soon as they arrived, the Americans started to bomb exactly where they were. And there hadn’t been bombing for a long time. But as soon as they arrived, suddenly the Americans started bombing. And uhm.. and what a powerful symbol that was. And you stopped and said, “They did that to me.” You said, “They hadn’t been bombing for- for a long time.”

Joan Baez: For months, yeah.

Dar Williams: “And as soon as I arrived, they started- they started coming out all around us.” And it was “Huh.”

Joan Baez: I get it.

Dar Williams: And there was so- something of a sinister agenda at work, perhaps in it at that time.

Joan Baez: Yeah.

Dar Williams: It was ah.. and- and it was a uh.. so- so you have that in common with other people who went over to witness.

Joan Baez: Yeah.

Dar Williams: And ah.. luckily, we still have you witnessing.

Joan Baez: Thank you. I’m happy to be here. Thanks, Dar.