♪♪

>> Funding for the

"Long Island Business Report"

has been provided by...

The Rauch Foundation

and by the JPB Foundation

and the Ford Foundation.

>> Hello, and thanks for joining

us.

I'm Jim Paymar with the

"Long Island Business Report."

Immigration has become one

of the most controversial issues

confronting America today.

Millions of immigrants are

wondering if they will be

arrested and deported, whether

they will be separated from

their families.

Here on Long Island,

the immigrant population has

grown rapidly over the past

decade.

About one in five

Long Islanders, more than

half a million people,

are immigrants.

What impact does immigration

have on Long Island's economy,

and how are immigrants dealing

with the threat of deportation,

as well as existing in one

of the most expensive regions

of America?

As a part of our ongoing

reporting initiative,

"Chasing the Dream:

Poverty and Opportunity

in America," we're discussing

those challenges, and joining me

is David Kallick, Director

of the Immigration Research

Initiative at the Fiscal Policy

Institute, and

Walter Barrientos,

Activist and Lead Organizer

at Make the Road,

a not-for-profit organization

that helps immigrants navigate

the system.

David, Walter, thank you so much

for being with us today.

How serious is the immigration

impact on Long Island if ICE

starts to make arrests,

starts to deport people?

And we see what's going on

in some of the rest of

the country.

I don't see too much of it

on Long Island now, but what

happens if it comes to our area?

>> Well, I think it's an

enormous question and potential

problem, right?

I mean, 20% of economic output

on Long Island is due to

immigrants, and so if you really

are talking about mass

deportations, I think

the immediate effect,

the direct effect is people

losing their jobs, businesses

suffering from not having people

working there, and loss of

economic output, and I would

say that's just the start.

You know, I think you also have

the impact on the reputation,

on the universities not being

able to attract people because

the sense of whether people

are welcome in this country

is really at risk.

>> Walter, what do you sense

out there?

What do you feel?

What are you hearing from

the people that you're dealing

with?

>> I think what we're seeing --

And we mostly work with

the Latino community, but we're

hearing similar things from

other immigrant communities --

South Asian and the Caribbean

communities on Long Island --

is there's very little

difference at this point in

terms of whether ICE has

actually -- ICE actually did

conduct a number of arrests.

Of the 41 arrests that ICE

conducted in the metropolitan

area, or at least in New York

about three weeks ago, about

a third came from Long Island --

I think 14 or 16 of them.

And so even though we have not

seen some of the most egregious

and aggressive programs,

operations that ICE has done

around the country, the fact is

that ICE has been coming into

immigrant communities on

Long Island in recent weeks

since the Administration took

over.

When you couple that with some

of the other law-enforcement

operations that have been going

on on Long Island, 192 people

have been arrested related to

gang-related issues, and many

immigrant communities on

Long Island over the last

two months, the level of

law enforcement the immigrant

communities have been seeing

has really struck a chord.

Where many who have lived there

for 40 years -- One of our

members has lived there for

35 years said, "Even when it was

at its worst in the '80s

and in the '90s, when it came

to law enforcement, it was never

like this," and that's the level

of fear that we're seeing in

the community.

>> And I should have started

by saying that ICE is

Immigration Customs Enforcement

so that everyone understands

exactly what it is.

And is there a sense out there,

Walter, of intimidation?

Is there a sense of fear out

in the community?

>> There's a strong sense of

fear in the community.

I should point out that,

you know, particularly

Suffolk County has a long

history of discrimination

against immigrants.

It's the place where an

immigrant, Marcelo Lucero,

was beaten by a number of

teenagers who were out

"beaner hopping," and

the county is under

a consent decree

with the Department of Justice

due to discrimination of Latinos

who were reporting hate crimes

and other violent crimes against

them in recent years, in

probably less than a decade,

and so the atmosphere has always

been one that has raised a lot

of tension in the community,

and now there's a lot of fear

where many folks -- You know,

in many of our programs, what

we're hearing from teachers is,

we heard a request from one

of the medical centers on

Long Island who said, "We have

seen an unexpected number of

immigrant families who are

missing their appointments

because they're afraid to

drive," because many

undocumented or mixed-status

families have to drive their

children to school or to

medical centers, and given

the number of people who have

been getting arrested or end up

with some kind of traffic ticket

because they were unlicensed,

they're more afraid.

>> If I can say, it's just

heartbreaking, also, some of

the stories of, you know,

the arrangements people are

making.

What should your kids do if

you're deported?

Who do they turn to that day

to make sure they have someplace

to go?

And I think that, you know,

often people think you can --

We'll say, "Oh, well.

It's just about undocumented

immigrants," and it's true,

of course, that four out of five

immigrants on Long Island

are here with lawfully present

status, so it's not everybody,

but at the same time, you know,

that fear starts to spread.

First, you have the mixed-status

families, but, also, you have

other people look like they

might be undocumented to police

or to other people, and I think,

also, the way in which

the atmosphere has changed

so that there are anti-Semitic

attacks, there are attacks

against Muslims, there's attacks

against African-Americans.

I think it's frightening.

>> What do you make of this

whole phenomena?

Is it just this kind of

fearfulness that we have in

our society today?

I mean, all of a sudden,

it seems to be coming at us

from all angles.

>> Well, I think there's

a certain amount that's always

been there, but it's hard to

avoid thinking that it's

empowered by the President

coming in and stirring this

kind of concern in ways that

I think is very

counterproductive.

I think everybody recognizes

that our immigration system

is broken and needs to be fixed,

but the way that he's going

about thinking he's gonna do

something about it feels like

it's just -- You know, feels

very blind to the contributions

immigrants are making.

>> And speaking of

the contribution -- you talked

about economic impact a short

time ago.

A lot of the small businesses

on Long Island are all

immigrant-owned, aren't they?

>> Well, it's a lot.

It's disproportionate, sure.

I think it's actually --

It's somewhat well-known

that immigrants are very

entrepreneurial, and I think

you see that on Long Island.

So about a fifth of the economy

is due to immigration, due

to immigrants.

A little bit lower than that

is the share of the population,

a little bit higher than that

is the share of the immigrant

business owners, so about 25%

of businesses on Long Island

are owned by immigrants,

and you see it's very clustered,

right?

So certain kinds of businesses,

especially, and they're not

necessarily -- There are

the Wangs and the big-business

owners, but there are also, even

more so, the small-business

owners that are helping to

revitalize Hempstead and

Hicksville and Patchogue

and downtown areas where there

have been boarded-up storefronts

and have started to go into

decline and now kind of coming

back again.

A lot of that, I think, is due

to immigrants.

>> Walter, do you see people

changing their plans --

you know, thinking, "Well, maybe

I'll open a business, but this

might not be the right time"?

>> Certainly.

I mean, I think that we have

seen a decline.

Our organization provides

workshops for immigrants who are

looking to start their own

business or who are looking

to grow their business, and over

the last 12 months, we have seen

a drastic drop in the number

of immigrants who have been

attending these workshops

because they're more concerned

about other issues in their

family.

They're not sure that they can

stay on the Island or that there

will be a market for

the business that they're

bringing there, and I think

that's ultimately the cost

that we're all paying for this,

that it's just depressing

the economy, and it's not

letting everyone continue

to engage at the community

level, where people can just

enjoy the things that we enjoy

on the Island, and I think

we're gonna continue to see

this pattern grow, and it also

has a huge impact on the housing

market.

There are many immigrants,

myself included, who were

thinking of buying a house

on Long Island, but I have

family members who are

undocumented, who I know will be

at my house.

My in-laws are undocumented,

and they will be coming to

visit.

I am not gonna buy a house on

Long Island in this moment

because I don't have

the assurance that, as they're

driving to visit me, they won't

be detained or somehow end up

in deportation.

So we know of a number of

families who were planning

to buy homes who are now

thinking maybe we need to think

about New York City because

that's where we're gonna be

safer and there's more

safeguards.

>> It's more of a sanctuary

area?

>> Exactly, and there's more

safeguards that prohibit

basic interaction with

law enforcement that could

end up in being referred

to ICE, where on Long Island,

we see that happening a lot

through various systems,

even if there isn't direct

cooperation.

>> David, 11 million

undocumented workers in this

country.

Is that necessarily a bad thing

if they're working and being

productive and going to school

and...?

You know, obviously no one wants

people who are involved in

criminal activity, but it seems

to me from everything that

I've read that the overwhelming

majority of the people who

are undocumented immigrants

are contributing something

to our economic welfare.

>> Sure. There's no doubt.

I think it isn't a good

situation.

It's not good for them,

it's not good for us for them

to be undocumented, and I think

we need to figure out a way

to fix that, and it's

politically challenging

even if it's not intellectually

that hard to see how that goes.

You know, I think they could be

contributing more.

I think if you're undocumented,

there's really kind of a ceiling

about how far you can advance.

So even if you've been working

in the same job for 10 years

and know it really well and

could go on to be the store

manager instead of the person

in the stockroom, you can't

really do that, and I think

that's bad for the employers,

it's bad for the employees.

So I think it's a loss.

I think we've kind of painted

ourselves into this corner

where the country -- you know,

the United States more or less

invited them in, people hired

them, and, you know, remember

that it's as much breaking

the law to be hiring

undocumented immigrants as it

is to be taking a job as an

undocumented immigrant.

I think we need to figure out

how do we recognize that we've

painted ourselves into this

corner and get out of it.

But I think the idea that you

could snap your fingers and --

first of all, that you could

make 11 million people leave,

that's, you know, especially

where you would be forcing them

to, that's not so easy, but

then, also, what would happen

to the businesses, what would

happen to the communities?

>> Walter, what is your thought

about this kind of mind-set that

immigrants are taking away jobs

from other people who are

established citizens who came

here legally or were born here?

Are they taking away jobs?

Are they decreasing wages?

Are they impacting people

that way?

>> You know, what we see a lot

in the community is that

oftentimes, I think, what

happens is that the system is,

in many ways, set up this way.

We see the cases, for example,

with wage theft.

Wage theft is rampant across

the immigrant community.

>> Wage theft?

>> Theft -- meaning people

who are either not paid

the minimum wage or paid

what they have earned in tips

or in their hourly wages, or

people who are in demand that

minimum wage be enforced when

they're working, and we see that

happening a lot with immigrant

workers, so it's not that

the immigrants themselves are

looking to shortcut other

workers.

Oftentimes because they're

in a vulnerable position being

undocumented, it is what makes

them vulnerable to unscrupulous

employers who want to take

advantage of that, and what we

have seen is that immigrants,

in spite of being undocumented,

oftentimes are willing to step

up and demand their wages and

report other conditions in

the workplace that are often

forced on them using the excuse

that they're undocumented

and that they are not able

to demand their rights.

So I think there is that, and

I also think that looking at

the types of jobs that

immigrants do -- my mom has

worked on Long Island as

a housekeeper for 17 years.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And many of those folks had

just moved there.

Many of these homes had just

been built.

Nobody was working in many

of those properties before

we got there.

We came in the '90s like a lot

of Central American immigrants

on the Island today.

And so my mom has been part

of building the new economy

of the Island that includes

many immigrant workers.

Now that my mom is a green-card

holder, she works at Long Island

North Shore-LIJ like many

of my family members, but I

think it is about how do we

think about the economy and

how do we build on the skills

and talents that immigrants

bring to the Island, and how

do we build on that?

And I think oftentimes what

happens is that we accuse or

think about immigrants as taking

jobs away when we don't realize

that they're stuck in some of

those jobs because they don't

have immigration status that

allows them to move forward

in a way that many of us would

expect people in some of those

jobs to move forward and move

up in the workforce.

>> So, David, is what Walter

saying that immigrants are

being held back in such a way

that really is a negative drag

on the economy overall?

>> Well, so that's one thing

that's happening, certainly,

although I think what we see

over and over again is studies

have found across the board that

immigrants actually are raising

wages for U.S.-born workers.

It seems maybe contradictory,

but what happens is, immigrants

come in at the low end of

the economy, and it actually

pushes people up instead of

out of the labor force, so

you end up being the manager

of the lower-level people

and so on.

I think, overall, wages go up

and employment goes up,

actually, for U.S.-born.

The people who are most

negatively impacted by this kind

of thing are other immigrants,

in fact -- the previous wave

of immigrants who are in

the most direct competition.

So I think there's some reality

to that, but it's not usually

the U.S.-born workers who are

affected.

On Long Island, in particular,

what we see is, you know, what

Walter was describing with

what it was like 15, 20 years

ago.

There's been this constant

out-migration of young adults

from Long Island -- you know,

people in their 20s and 30s.

>> Not just immigrants,

but any young person.

>> Yeah.

>> Anybody who grew up there,

you know, I think the younger

generation, as they get to be

adults, they move away to

college, they move away to other

job opportunities.

They want to be in the city

where there are better

opportunities for nightlife.

>> It's costly out there, too.

>> Long Island's an expensive

place to live, and there's

not a lot of rental housing,

there's not a lot of places

to go out if you're single.

So, I think that's kind of

the background, and those people

are moving out, so the labor

force has actually been --

if you just look at

the U.S.-born part of

the labor force, it's actually

declining over time.

>> Right.

>> So if you didn't have

immigrants coming in, you would

be seeing labor force decline.

What instead you see is it's

just about flat.

It's not really growing very

much, either, but the immigrants

are coming in to kind of replace

people who left.

>> And I've read numerous

articles about how immigrants

have come into major cities,

and without that immigrant

population, these cities would

be in decline.

They would not have the tax base

to maintain their infrastructure

because the cities were once

much larger, so they're actually

asking the immigrants to come

in.

>> And I think when you look at

that, I think that's part of

the story about Long Island

that many people don't realize

that part of the growth that

we're seeing on the Island

in terms of commerce and

population -- just density,

which also allows us to access

a number of other -- and be more

competitive, what we call

a gateway community, where

Long Island now compares

to Northern Virginia, Houston,

and a number of other suburban

centers around the country

that have now become competitive

and run up against a lot of

the other bigger cities like

New York City and Los Angeles

partly because they have sort

of grown this outer ring

of particularly immigrant

communities and what we're

calling gateway communities

where immigrants are no longer

sort of following the tradition

of, like, landing in a place

like New York City, living here

for a few years, learning

the language, and then sort of

buying a house on Long Island,

but, in fact, what's happened,

for example, with my family

is what's happened.

My family came directly to

Long Island.

Most family members do not

have any -- I'm the first one

that came to Long Island after

two and a half generations --

to the city after two and

a half generations, but that

is what's driving a lot of

the population growth, which

makes the economy of the Island

more competitive -- not just

in that aspect, but also in

terms of civic engagement.

We are seeing two of

the Congressional Districts

on Long Island are some of

the two among the top 25

Congressional Districts in

the country with the highest

number of young people turning

18 and being eligible to vote,

and so I think that they're not

just voters, they're also

consumers.

They're attending the local

universities, they're attending

and working in the local

economy, so I think that's

a huge part of the bigger

picture that we need to see

about immigrants in terms of

the segments of the population

that they get to hold so that

we can have a more competitive

economy.

>> And speaking of education,

I don't know the exact number.

Maybe you can help me out on

this, David, but a lot of

immigrants have college

educations, they have

high-school educations.

They're not uneducated, they're

not just capable of just doing

manual labor.

>> By no means.

I mean, I think that you see --

It probably won't surprise you

that about a third of

construction workers on

Long Island are immigrants,

but also a quarter of nurses

on Long Island are immigrants,

a quarter of doctors on

Long Island are immigrants.

You have a lot of engineers

and architects, and it's,

I think -- I mean, immigration

is much more diverse than people

may realize.

>> Is there a way that we should

be thinking about influencing

our governmental leadership

to deal with this immigrant

crisis?

I mean, is there -- I mean,

is there any communication

going on?

'Cause you hear everything out

of Washington right now, and

we've heard something out of

Albany from Governor Cuomo,

but I don't hear much from

Long Island.

Do they need to speak up?

>> I think they do.

I mean, I think --

This used to be, you could say,

a bipartisan issue.

It was bipartisan in the sense

that there were both Republicans

and Democrats who supported

immigration reform, as well as

both Republicans and Democrats

who opposed it, but, you know,

President Bush was pushing

for immigration reform,

President Obama, of course.

I think -- I really think

we need to get back to,

first of all, a time of

a little bit of calming down

and recognizing that, in fact,

things are kind of okay

on Long Island.

Things are -- The economy is

finally back, you know, humming

pretty well.

>> Right.

>> Things are going pretty well.

But, then, also, how do we,

you know, do even better?

How do we make sure that we can

get the most out of people

who are here and how do we

imagine -- I don't know.

Why don't we --

How do we get back to a time

of having a little bit more

confidence in ourselves and

what America is all about,

that it can be a good place

for people to thrive and that

their thriving is good for us,

too?

>> I mean, the Statue of Liberty

is not too far from here, and

everyone was an immigrant at

one point or another except

for the Native Americans,

correct?

>> Native Americans, slaves

were brought here, but, I mean,

I think you have, of course,

a big part -- and, you know,

it's a big part of America

that came here as immigrants,

and, I mean, it's interesting.

There was a big study done

recently that talked about

the first generation,

the second generation,

and it was very striking how

much -- The first generation

does pretty well when they

come here.

The second generation does

better than everybody else,

actually.

They do extraordinarily well.

And then after that, they talk

about the third-plus generation.

So, third-plus generation,

that's everybody who didn't come

in the first or second, and

they are basically the rest

of us.

That's who we all are.

>> Walter, what would you like

to see happen being an immigrant

yourself?

And you had a difficult

situation where you were

actually incarcerated...

>> Exactly.

>> ...and that must have been

an extremely frightening time

for you, but what would you like

to see out of the Administration

right now?

What kind of plan?

I mean, everyone talks about

a plan.

I don't think anyone knows

what's gonna really happen.

>> I think the biggest priority

for our community is that we

are able to be part of

the narrative of America in our

communities on Long Island,

where we are not seen as guests,

but we're actually seen as

just the most recent wave

of immigrants who deserve

just as much opportunity

and access to our collective

narrative as a country as

anyone else, and I get that

a lot.

You know, I think many people

say to me, "I have no problem

with you, Walter, now because

you speak English and you have

gone to college," but I look

just like -- When I came to

Long Island when I was

11 years old, I looked just like

most unaccompanied minors

that people are seeing in

the news today.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And I am a result of a lot --

going to school, parents that

worked really hard, an entire

family, an entire network of

teachers and others who

supported me, and so I think,

generally, as a country, our

hope is that we can repeat that.

I think that we have done that

for generations, and we need

to get back into a place where

we as a country are connected

to that reality of our history,

our legacy as a country, and

we can, once again, not fear

immigrants and not fear

diversity or change, but

actually engage with it and see

the bigger vision of ourselves

in the newest and most recent

arrivals.

>> How do you open people's

minds to that, David?

I mean, how do you do that?

You know, I mean, Walter's --

>> We're seeing some of that.

I think a lot of it --

One of the things that we are

doing with many of our

members -- We have over 1,000

on Long Island, Make the Road

New York members, and I think

this is an amazing moment for

many communities that I haven't

seen on Long Island.

One example is, I was

a high-school senior when 9/11

happened, and when 9/11

happened, I think it was

the beginning of a conversation

about immigration and diversity

in many communities on

Long Island, but we didn't go

there because we were mourning

the bigger trauma that I think

we were going as a country.

After this election, what I have

seen unlike ever before is

communities actually reaching

out and connecting and hearing

their stories because many

immigrants, particularly because

of -- many communities on

Long Island, particularly

because of segregation, think,

oh, because I haven't seen ICE

driving down my block because

I'm a middle-class or

upper-middle-class community,

it means that ICE is not coming

or there is no law-enforcement

issues happening in my

community, but when they talk

to the people from across

the highway or across

the train tracks, who may look

different from them -- maybe

they're South Asian or Latino

or Black, they hear some of

the other things that are

happening in communities they

don't have access to, and I

think that, to me, the beauty

of this moment, particularly

on Long Island, which what

I've seen in a number of

the collaboratives that

we are working with other

organizations, is people are

engaging and they're saying,

"I want to hear your story

because the story of us on

Long Island needs to include

the details of what we are both

living," and I do think that

that's what we're --

My hope is that that's what

we're going through as

a country, that we will have

a different vision of ourselves

and a different understanding

of ourselves to push forward

other solutions like

immigration reform that will

allow people to become citizens

so that they can be fully part

of our community.

>> Do --

>> Go.

>> Do you have a crystal ball

that you can kind of look

forward, and do you have a sense

of where we're going with

the new immigration laws and

where Long Island and the state

of New York fits in to all this?

>> I don't know where we're

going.

I think this President is very

unpredictable.

I think -- I think I see some

hopefulness in the resistance,

and I hate to say it that way,

but I think that it may be that

what helps to crystallize

people's thinking is seeing

some of the stuff happen,

and we've noticed that before.

I mean, I think everybody saw

the story about the farm owners

in California who supported

Donald Trump as a candidate,

but then were surprised, didn't

think that they were really

gonna take all of their workers

and deport them.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> You know, the guy in

the Midwest who had a local

restaurant, and everybody

supported him.

>> Right, right, right.

Demonstrations at JFK --

I mean, people are coming

together on this in ways

that we hadn't anticipated.

>> And I think we saw some of

that, you know, when there were

raids on Long Island in

the Bush Administration.

I think there was, initially,

support for, you know, okay,

we should do something about

this, and then people started

to see, "Wait a second.

I know that guy.

And those aren't the bad

hombres.

Those are the people who live

in our community."

And I think recognizing that

we got into a situation where

there are undocumented people

who are here, and we kind of

all messed up in getting there,

so how do we fix that?

It's not gonna just be by,

you know, taking them all

and putting them on a train car.

>> No, and that's not gonna

happen.

>> And --

>> Walter, I'm sorry.

You know, I told you before

this was gonna be a very quick

show, and we are, unfortunately,

out of time because we could

probably go a couple of hours

on the subject, but I thank you

both for coming in today.

And that wraps up our

conversation on the issue

of immigration on Long Island.

To learn more about the

"Chasing the Dream" Initiative,

please visit the

chasingthedreamproject.org.

And for more on the

"Long Island Business Report,"

log on to our website.

You can also find us on Facebook

and join the conversation on

Twitter.

I'm Jim Paymar.

Thank you for joining us

for this edition of the

"Long Island Business Report,"

and we'll see you next time.

>> Funding for the

"Long Island Business Report"

has been provided by...

The Rauch Foundation

and by the JPB Foundation

and the Ford Foundation.

♪♪