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HOOVER: He’s one of the most popular governors in the United States… in the president’s party, but not always in his camp. This week on Firing Line.
NAT: Beach Boys
HOOVER: Larry Hogan surfed to victory in the very blue state of Maryland … and he is not afraid to criticize the president.
HOGAN on CBS: I’ve been pretty clear I don’t like the tone that the president uses, I think there are times when he acts irrationally
SETH MEYERS: You are a Republican in a blue state, and you have been vocally critical of the president. Why are there not more of you? (Audience Laughter)
HOGAN: Wow, well that’s a good question.
HOOVER: Bucking the party is a family tradition. Larry Hogan’s father was the first Republican on the House Judiciary Committee to break with President Nixon.
LARRY HOGAN SR IN 1974: I’ve come to the conclusion that Richard M. Nixon has, beyond a reasonable doubt, committed impeachable offenses which, in my judgment, are of such sufficient magnitude that he should be removed from office.
HOOVER: Governor Hogan has faced long odds before…
HOGAN: A few days ago I was diagnosed with cancer. It is an aggressive non-Hodgkins lymphoma
HOOVER: He beat the cancer… Now he is worried about the future of his own party. What does Maryland Governor Larry Hogan say now?
‘Firing Line with Margaret Hoover’ is made possible by the Margaret and Daniel Loeb Foundation. Additional funding is provided by. Corporate funding is provided by Stevens.
HOOVER: Welcome to Firing Line Governor Larry Hogan.
HOGAN: Thank you so much for having me.
HOOVER: You are the governor of Maryland and the second most popular governor in the country.
HOGAN: That darn Charlie Baker.
HOOVER: (laugh) You have a 70 percent approval rating in a blue state. Now the other top governors in the country, four of them are also Republican governors of states that Hillary Clinton won in 2016.
HOGAN: Right.
GRAPHIC OF THE FOUR REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS IN BLUE STATES
HOOVER: Charlie Baker the governor of Massachusetts. Phil Scott the governor of Vermont. Chris Sununu the governor of New Hampshire. All Republican governors in blue states.
HOOVER: Why is that?
HOGAN: I think it’s because we’ve had to work together in a bipartisan common sense way. To work with the legislature that is 70 percent Democrat in both houses to actually get anything done. And it turns out people actually like that. Republicans like it and independents like it and Democrats like it. And I think that’s that’s the secret.
HOOVER: On the balance the policies that Republican governors in blue states support are policies that are a little different than sort of self-identified conservative policy, at least on issues like the environment…
HOGAN: Right.
HOOVER: … issues like some of the social issues…
HOGAN: Right.
HOOVER: …LGBT equality.
HOGAN: Absolutely.
HOOVER: What is the… I mean is that the secret?
HOGAN: Part of it is the tone. And so I think you can disagree without being disagreeable and try to find consensus. So it’s it’s it’s not the constant fighting on issues like marriage equality and LGBTQ issues, and on the environment where look I,
HOOVER: You promise to reduce greenhouse gases emissions by 40 percent.
HOGAN: Well we have a plan that we’re coming out with to reduce them by 2040 to 100 percent.
HOOVER: One of the other things that was so striking about your win, when you won re-election, is that you won with a higher percentage of the African-American vote than any Republican that I’ve ever followed. You won higher percentages of parts of the electorate that Republicans don’t traditionally win.
HOOVER: This would make you an incredibly compelling national candidate if you were to run on a Republican ticket.
HOGAN: I think that there’s a there’s a big chunk of America that would respond to a message just like folks in Maryland have. But it’s not the way our process is set up, when you deal with primaries.
HOOVER: You said in the spring that you are not going to go launch some kind of suicide mission, when you referred to the opportunity to primary President Trump. Why would it have been a suicide mission?
HOGAN: You know people were trying to convince me of it. And I just looked at… President Trump has 80 some percent of Republican primary voters, so for me to go running around the country running for president to try to do them damage Trump so he can get beat by a Democrat and take time away from my state where I’ve got a big job to do. It just didn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense, just to just to make a statement.
HOOVER: One of the things we’ve learned, or I’ve learned, is that *parties don’t have principles. People have principles.
HOGAN: True
HOOVER: …and parties only have principles if they’re governed or led by people with principles.
HOGAN: It’s a very good point.
HOOVER: And I’m looking at the people with principles who could lead the party in the future. You’re one of them, Charlie Baker is one of them. And I worry about the future of the party –
HOGAN: I’m worried about it too.
HOOVER: …without, without people of principle who are willing to stand up against President Trump.
HOGAN: Well, I think you and I are not alone in that regard.
HOOVER: The kind of Republican that can be competitive in a national election has a very difficult time navigating the Republican primary process.
HOGAN: Exactly.
HOOVER: And I want to know why that is.
HOGAN: Well so here’s what I’m concerned about. I grew up… I was a young man just a college kid coming out of college. I was a Ronald Reagan, Youth for Reagan, Young Republican at that time. 1980. I was at the convention in 80 and 84. I would like to see the party return to a more Reagan-esque big tent party where he was appealing to those Reagan Democrats and reaching out. The part I’m concerned –
HOOVER: Reagan brought in a whole new generation to the Republican party.
HOGAN: Whole new generation to the party. And I think we’re doing the opposite, where we’re shrinking to a smaller and smaller shrinking base and trying to appeal to that base, where you know, we’re getting to the point where we’re losing suburban women, we’re losing all my minorities, we’re losing. We’re alienating every group we possibly can. Now the president seems to be doubling down on that, that kind of strategy, which may help him to be elected, I’m not sure. But it’s hurting the Republican party in all the competitive races across the country. I think to be successful long term you have to do sort of what I’ve done, and what Charlie Baker and some of the governors you mentioned earlier.
HOOVER: Phil Scott…
HOGAN: Phil Scott,
HOOVER: Chris Sununu
HOGAN: We have to find ways to grow the party.
HOOVER: So what is it about the Republican party nominating process that shoots itself in the foot from being able to field a nationally competitive candidate?
HOGAN: Part of the problem on the National Party in Washington, if you look at Congress, it’s part of it is gerrymandering. So we create districts that the most conservative Republican wins the primary and there’s no competitive race. And the most liberal Democrat wins and there’s no competitive race in the general.
HOOVER: Right.
HOGAN: So we have nobody that’s moderate, nobody left of center, right of center. You have far left, far right. In the presidential nominating process, the way it’s set up with the caucuses with the parties running you know how you run these things and the turnouts in the primaries being so low, it’s… Usually the most passionate most involved folks show up. Average voters do not.
HOOVER: One of the things that strikes me is, if we’re going to have a Republican Party that’s competitive for a new generation, we’re gonna have to reach out to suburban women reach out to youth reach out to these minority groups who need to feel allegiance the Republican Party. *And one of the things President Trump is doing is turning them all off.
HOGAN: No question
HOOVER: One of the places you’ve really stood out is by standing up against child separation policy making your views known about immigration making your views known frankly about the Mueller report and that it maybe didn’t fully exonerate the president. I want to take a look at something you said recently.
CLIP HOGAN: I’ve been pretty clear I don’t like the tone that the president uses. I think there are times where he acts irrationally and makes decisions that are not only not… and does things in a way that aren’t great for the Republican Party or for the country or for him and his agenda for that matter.
HOOVER: If we can’t field a nominee through the primary process right now, how important is it to at least plant a flag that there are other views that are respectable and have a real following in the Republican party on the right?
HOGAN: I think it’s critically important for the future of the party. So you want to walk the fine line between, I’ve been very careful to say *when I disagree with the president I’m never afraid to stand up and say that but I don’t, I’m not out there you don’t see me just out bashing the president every day. I’m not out to hurt the president so that we can elect a liberal Democratic president. But I do care about. I don’t even care if there’s a future for me in the party. I do care about a future for the party. I really care about that a lot. And so… I can tell you that there are a lot more people in elective office who feel the way that you and I do who who who are not who are not saying it because they’re afraid of being tweeted about or primaried about…
HOOVER: Let’s talk about that…
HOGAN: …and I know many of my colleagues are asking me how do we do what you did? How do we not lose the women vote and the minority vote so badly. I’m a Republican in a Republican state. How come I am 20 points behind you guys?
HOOVER: Why are they though? Because I think we know. I mean the answer is right? They’re not speaking out. They call you on background. They call you and you speak privately to them. And they aren’t speaking out against the president because they would be politically compromised if they stood up to him.
HOGAN: I mean that’s perfectly understandable. Look I mean you can’t really blame them there’s not there’s not. Not everybody is a profile in courage. They may be up for re-election. They don’t want to get primaried they don’t want to lose their job. They don’t want to be tweeted about like Mitt Romney was just recently. And you know to me it doesn’t matter because I’m going to say exactly what I think. In my state Trump lost by 29 points. I won by 14. I’m 40 points more popular in Maryland than he is. It doesn’t matter what I say.
HOOVER: Isn’t leadership about saying what you believe in standing for your principles?
HOGAN: [18:24:55] I think it is. But it’s… my dad, for example on the Judiciary Committee during the impeachment of Nixon.
HOOVER: We’re going there next.
HOGAN: I’m sorry. I mean I’m I don’t want to jump ahead.
HOOVER: I’m glad you mentioned your dad, no I’m glad you mentioned you. I love it. I wanted to mention your dad because your father was the very first Republican on the House Judiciary Committee in 1974. He was in the House of Representatives during the Watergate hearings. He’s the very first Republican to come out and support the impeachment of the president of his own party. And the only Republican to support all three counts of impeachment.
HOGAN: Yes.
HOOVER: In fact, I’d like to show you what your father said about that. Let’s take a look.
CLIP HOGAN SR: No man, not even the president of the United States is above the law. I read and reread and sifted and tested the mass of information and then I came to my conclusion.That Richard Nixon, Nixon has beyond a reasonable doubt committed impeachable offenses which in my judgment are of sufficient magnitude that he should be removed from office. The Constitution and my own oath of office demand that I bear true faith and allegiance to the principles of law and justice upon which this nation was founded. And I cannot in good conscience turn away from the evidence of evil that is to me so clear and compelling.
HOOVER: You were in high school at the time.
HOGAN: Yeah.
HOOVER: You’ve said your dad is your political hero.
HOGAN: Look I I learned more about integrity in one day watching my dad in that hearing than most people learn in a lifetime. But I can tell you that that was a very difficult decision and he knew while making that statement while he believed he was doing the right thing for the nation after seeing all of the evidence. He also knew he was ending his political career. He also knew that he was going to have the wrath of the president, his colleagues in Congress, the Republican Party and they… it exacted a price. So what we were just talking about the people that are afraid… he showed an incredible amount of courage. And *history has treated him well. But at the time he paid a serious price. And that’s what those guys don’t want to have happen.
HOOVER: And part of that price was that he wanted to be, he wanted to have your job.
HOGAN: Yeah.
HOOVER: He wanted to be the governor of Maryland.
HOGAN: The irony is he gave up his safe seat in Congress to run for governor of Maryland, was defeated as a result of this. And 40 years later I was elected and I got to have my dad there at the inauguration and I said, dad it may have taken us 40 years but — I’m a junior — we finally have a Larry Hogan in the governor’s mansion. Tears came down my dad’s face. So it was just… that was very very proud moment.
HOOVER: Do you did you feel personally vindicated or like you had carried the torch?
HOGAN: Well I just felt that was a proud moment but… I mean never in my life that I… I was always proud of my dad, but at that moment I knew how incredibly proud he was of me.
HOOVER: You were just saying, you know, most of the Republicans in Congress and in the Senate talk to you behind closed doors about their concerns about the president essentially don’t have the kind of courage that your father had.
HOGAN: I’m not trying to say they don’t have courage. There are people who certainly express concerns. There are actually people in the administration that have expressed those concerns and people in the cabinet feel that have some concerns you know.
HOOVER: But they’re not willing to take the political risks that your dad did just there.
HOGAN: I understand. I understand it though. I’m not criticizing them. They’re not everyone can have… He was the only one that had the courage then. He was the first Republican entire Congress to do so. And let me say that just real quickly. He fought to make sure that Nixon was treated fairly. He was a supporter of Nixon he thought Nixon did a great job on foreign policy with China. Nixon came out — they ran together — he came out and into my end of the district supported my dad’s campaign. He likely had personal affection for him. He was a loyal Republican. *But when he saw the evidence and when the tapes came out it was it broke his heart. But he said he had to do the right thing. He said no man is above the law and got to do the right thing for the country.
HOOVER: What do you think that moment is in the current context. Is there an equivalent to the tapes?
HOOVER: There may be, I mean we don’t know. So people are saying now, well the look the Democrats are saying ‘the president is to be impeached and removed from office right now.’ The Republicans are saying ‘there’s nothing to see here.’ You know there’s nothing he didn’t do anything.
HOOVER: What do you think?. Do you think there’s anything to see?
HOGAN: Well I think… I’m very concerned, very troubling… all kinds of things that you know I think need to be looked into that we have to get to the facts. Like like those all those years ago that we were just watching. I think we need to have a fair process where we can actually get to the facts and I’m not sure how we how we get there because I think that the Democrats have already decided he’s guilty, you know before being proven, proven innocent, and so they’re just going to impeach, don’t care what the facts where the facts lead. And many Republicans are going to say we’re not even going to have a trial or we’re not we don’t care what what the facts say we’re we’re not going to do anything. And that’s not… what we need to actually. I don’t know what the facts are yet. I know there’s some very troubling things, and we need to get to the rest of it.
HOOVER: What do you think, what is most troubling to you?
HOGAN: Look I think… every day it changes. And more troubling things happen, but the potential… the allegations from the whistleblowers with the discussions with foreign entities about… I mean that’s
HOOVER: Leveraging the the presidency to ask foreign powers to look into your –
HOGAN: It’s just not something that should ever happen. The other thing that’s troubling is you know that* just arbitrarily saying we’re not cooperating. You know you know…look the president has
HOOVER: That’s also troubling to you.
HOGAN: …the president has the right to… you know, there’s executive privilege or certain things if they go over the line. His lawyers have a right to put up certain defenses. They are not entitled to everything. But you can’t just say we’re not cooperating with anything, we’re not going to provide any information, no one’s gonna testify.
HOOVER: Why not?
HOGAN: Because it’s just… there’s a balance of power there. There’s a processes you have to follow. As my father said so many years ago no man is above the law.
HOOVER: Is that obstruction of justice when you just decide not to cooperate?
HOGAN: We have to find out. I mean it’s certainly approaching you know that line.
HOOVER: How do we find out? I mean you’ve said we want a fair process and you’re not sure Congress is going to yield a fair process.
HOGAN: I think there needs to be a fair and objective process and we do have to have an inquiry and we do have to get to the facts. And you know as we sit here today I don’t know how we go from here to there, because frankly the way the way it’s taking place right now it doesn’t appear like it’s going to happen.
HOOVER: I mean it appears to me there’s some –
HOGAN: ...And it’s in the middle of an election year, when nobody’s really acting fairly or objectively.
HOOVER: Hamilton in Federalist 65 was very explicit that anytime you go towards an impeachment you’re really you’re just starting a political circus where people come down on the sides of the factions that they were originally aligned with.
HOGAN: Well and things have gotten a lot more divisive than in Hamilton’s day and the divisive politics is crazier than ever.
HOOVER: They’re frankly more divisive than in your father’s day.
HOGAN: Oh well look *in the 70s it was not like it is now. I mean this was a pretty tumultuous time. But there were more statesmen in Congress on both sides of the aisle who really were saying this is a constitutional crisis. Now it’s just people scoring points. I’m on this side, I’m on that side. I don’t care what the facts are.
HOOVER: Why do you think there’s been that change? I mean you as a witness to Congress as a child in high school watching your dad in Congress. Why do you think it’s become more polarized?
HOGAN: There are no moderates or right of center, left of center folks in Congress anymore. So nobody that really wants to work together or reach across the aisle. I think the 24 hour news cycle, the social media that people are in their own camps only talking to each other, and just the breakdown of civility and decency, and no one really appears to want to get things done for the people. They just want to score political points and you know make news and you know demonize the other side
HOOVER: One of the president’s most fervent supporters is Senator Lindsey Graham who is the very powerful chair of the Judiciary Committee in the Senate. And in1998 when President Clinton was being impeached, he had a very different view about how Congress could compel the president to cooperate than he does today. Let’s take a look.
CLIP: GRAHAM: When asked for information Richard Nixon chose not to comply in the Congress back in that time said you are taking impeachment away from us. You’re becoming the judge and jury. It is not your job to tell us what we need. It is your job to comply with the things we need to provide oversight over you. The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day that he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress.
HOOVER: I mean how do you account for that kind of flip flop.
HOGAN: Well you know what, you know Lindsey is not the only one doing that flip flopping. So it was one way when we were talking about impeaching President Clinton, but it’s a different way now that we’re talking about impeaching President Trump. And it’s our team versus your team. But at some point you have this, you know the rule of law needs to mean something. And you know it’s the final arbiter of men’s actions.* I mean it’s it’s not just about your team and supporting your party. At some point there are things that are more important than the future of the country might be at stake.
HOOVER: Phil Scott and Charlie Baker, two of your contemporaries and fellow travellers…
HOGAN: Good guys.
HOOVER: They have said that they support the impeachment inquiry now.
HOGAN: Yeah.
HOOVER: Do you?
HOGAN: I think we I think we do need an inquiry because we’ve got to get to the bottom of it. I would. I’m not ready to say I support impeachment and the removal of the president. But I think, I do think we have to have an impeachment inquiry. But I’m very concerned about can we have a fair and objective one. And I’m not sure we can in this Democratic Congress.
HOOVER: But you do, well I mean you just said you do think we need to have an impeachment inquiry.
HOGAN: I don’t see any other way to get to the facts.
HOOVER: Why do you think more Republicans in Congress haven’t said just that?
HOGAN: I think because they are so because of the divisiveness and dysfunction that they just don’t trust the process. //
HOOVER: William F. Buckley Junior had George H.W. Bush on this program in 1974.
HOGAN: Wow
HOOVER: …and his conversation with him was about Nixon Watergate and the future of the Republican Party.
HOGAN: Wow.
HOOVER: Let’s take a look.
CLIP:
BRATT: [18:36:59] Are you sorry that the Post broke Watergate. Are you sorry?
BUSH: No. I’m sorry that Watergate exists. It offends me.
BRATT: But given the fact that it does exist, are you sorry that it was exposed?
BUSH: Absolutely not. I want to see it out examine laid to rest in the system and I think it’s happening and long after people can’t remember how you spell Stran or whatever many might have been fairly or unfairly dragged into it. They’re going to remember that this system does indeed work and hopefully out of it will come some meaningful reform not the Washington Post version of turning it all over to the federal government. That isn’t the answer but some meaningful reform in terms of campaign financing or whatever it is and hopefully a reawakening of a certain moral sense.
HOOVER: The reawakening of a certain moral sense.
HOGAN: Wow. It’s interesting. So my dad served in Congress with George H.W. Bush and I got a chance to meet him back then. He has to believe he was chairman of the Republican National Committee at the time when Watergate was taking place and he wasn’t very happy with my father’s decision at first. But you know he’s a guy… I was at his funeral and I spoke about him in my inaugural just recently that we don’t have leaders like that today. And…. but that’s… He was right on target. I mean so he was a guy who was, you know, he realized the enormity of what happened and it really wasn’t about the Republican Party it wasn’t about the man in the White House. It was about the future of the of the nation.
HOOVER: It’s about the future –
HOOGAN: And long term I mean look it hurt the Republican Party temporarily but look at Reagan came back in 1980 with a whole different direction for the party and we were stronger than ever.
HOOVER: Is there something to the Republicans now who have an opportunity to either say something or don’t that will help when the fever breaks after Trump? I mean because there are Republicans who really believe that that Trump, whether he’s gone in a few years or in eight years, will have been a blip on the radar and that it’s going to be more easy to rebuild the Republican Party with people who have taken a stand during his presidency.
HOGAN: There is definitely going to be some, some future of the party after Donald Trump and –
HOOVER: How is that the future of the party going to have any credibility with the kind of voters that you’ve won, that we know we need to win back, if Republicans aren’t willing to speak out against Trump now?
HOGAN: Well it’s going to be very difficult for those elected officials who weren’t speaking out are going to have trouble individually getting those voters.
HOOVER: Do you think Republicans who continue to support the president now will have no credibility with a future Republican Party?
HOGAN: I think history will be the judge.
HOOVER: Five months after you took office you were diagnosed with stage 3 non Hodgkin’s lymphoma. And your response to this was not to retreat into the quiet of your home but to move the State Government to the hospital bed and run the government out of the hospital where you were being treated.
HOGAN: Yeah.
HOOVER: How are you doing now?
HOGAN: I’m doing great. I’m 100 percent cancer free and in complete remission and I just just this past week actually I’m celebrating three years of being cancer free and being done with chemo, chemotherapy treatments I haven’t got the beautiful hair back but other than that the health is back and I’m stronger than ever. And I… it really changed me. I met so many incredible people who were going through much more difficult challenges than I was. And I’ve got a new purpose. In addition to being governor, I’m doing everything I can to raise awareness and raise money for cancer charities and it’s… It sounds crazy because no one I wouldn’t wish this on anyone but it was. It was something that it became actually a positive experience.
HOOVER: You’re grateful for it.
HOGAN: I am.
HOOVER: How do you handicap the 2020 primary?
HOGAN: I think the Democrats may have had, or may have, a good opportunity in this election given the weakness of the president. But I think they may make a mistake by nominating someone who is too far left. It seems like with Elizabeth Warren’s ascension. I mean I just don’t know that she’s electable, no matter how weak the president is.
HOOVER: If you had to choose between Trump and Elizabeth Warren, who would you choose?
HOGAN: Well that’s that you know obviously I could not possibly think of supporting Elizabeth Warren, it would be disastrous for the country.
HOOVER: You didn’t vote for President Trump the first time.
HOGAN: I did not.
HOOVER: What do you do in that situation?
HOGAN: That’s it, come on Margaret. I mean that’s just like you know which would. What do you choose. Like I couldn’t possibly support Democratic nominee.
HOOVER: So there… is there any scenario in which you might support Trump the second time?
HOGAN: Boy you’re tough.
HOOVER: Sorry.
HOGAN: You know look, I didn’t support the president the first time. He has certainly done nothing to make me more supportive than I would have been before. But you know we’re 14 months from the election. I’m not sure who the nominee is gonna be who the president’s gonna be. We have to wait and see where we’re taking it day by day.
HOOVER: Well you’re taking day by day in your state. You’re proving that Republican principles, conservative principles, can govern a blue state. And the second most popular governor in the country. So there is something that all Republicans should be looking at. Larry Hogan, thank you for coming to Firing Line.
HOGAN: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
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