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The orchestra performs Bartók's "Concerto for Orchestra."
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Composer, conductor, and teacher Pierre Boulez was born in 1925 in Montbrison, France, and studied music at the Paris Conservatoire. A champion of new music, in 1954 he co-founded the Domaine Musical in Paris -- one of the first concert series dedicated entirely to the performance of modern music -- and remained its director until 1967. He also served as chief conductor of the BBC Symphony (1971-75) and the New York Philharmonic (1971-77), where he succeeded Leonard Bernstein.
GREAT PERFORMANCES: As a composer, you continually revisit your own music, updating and revising. Do you do the same as a conductor? You've been performing Bartók's "Concerto for Orchestra" for a long time; has your understanding of it changed?
Pierre Boulez: Not very much, no. I have more experience now, of course, but my relationship with the piece does not vary, particularly since this work is not one of the most complex.
GP: I've seen you conduct many times, and am always struck by the meticulousness of your gestures -- the precision with which you give cues and shape phrases. In this concert, you seem to be more relaxed. Is that because the orchestra knows you and the piece so well?
PB: I suppose so. It's not necessary to demonstrate everything all the time. There is a saying: "Never encourage the trombones." It's true. Most things in this piece are so obvious for an orchestra of this magnitude that a lot of things are understood without saying. If you want more accentuation or different kinds of phrasing, then you just tell them, and it's not a big deal.
GP: You've been conducting the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra for many years. It's a very different orchestra from the one von Karajan led, isn't it?
PB: Yes, you have younger people, a change in generation. The first time I conducted the Berlin Philharmonic was in 1961, and I think there is hardly anyone left from that time. But at the same time, as an orchestra changes, there is a kind of character that remains, which is transmitted because the change is not abrupt. It also depends on the personality of the chief conductor -- that relationship is very important -- so there is a complex mixture. For instance, if you take the example of Chicago, the personality of the orchestra is very different for Barenboim than it was with Solti. That's what makes it interesting to come back as a guest conductor. Each time you are confronted with something slightly different.
GP: What was it like performing in the Hieronymus Monastery? It does not look like an environment that would have ideal acoustics.
PB: It was difficult. Architecturally, the place is a marvel, but it is also extremely resonant. For the first hour of rehearsal, we had to adapt to this atmosphere. You have to brace yourself against this reverberation. You look for exactitude. You have to be more accurate.
GP: There's been a lot of talk about Europe in general and the orchestra world in particular becoming more homogeneous. Do you agree? Is it a different experience for you to conduct a German orchestra as opposed to a French or an English one?
PB: It's true that there is a tendency towards everything becoming the same, but there are still some national differences, because you don't have the same cultural environment or style of life. Every country has a style and a character. Look, in the United States, people don't live in California the same way they do on the East Coast. The most specific environment I know is still Vienna. That's a particular case, and it's the only example I know of a local tradition that is really convincing.
GP: Unlike Bartók, Mozart is not one of your specialties. Do you feel like you have less to say with his music than with the music of the 20th century?
PB: It's very interesting for me to do Mozart. I do it very rarely, and only with a soloist I like very much, such as Maria João Pires or Maurizio Pollini. I have a fresh approach, which depends very much on the character of the orchestra and the soloist. In Mozart, I adapt, rather than "say."
GP: Your own music was once considered almost impossible to perform, and now there are a number of ensembles who are quite expert at it -- mostly orchestras you've worked with: Berlin, Chicago, Cleveland, and the London Symphony. Do you think that dealing with the performance problems in your music has an effect on how they play the rest of their repertoire -- Mozart and Bartók, say?
PB: I believe so. Especially in complex scores, I can lead them toward performance, and that gives them confidence in me. So when they see music that they know, that they understand perfectly, they can relax. You know, the relationship of a conductor with an orchestra is based on confidence. Then I can do even Mozart and they can think, well, it's not his cup of tea, but he is able to do it anyway. That's a good reaction.
GP: How do you think Simon Rattle's tenure at the Berlin Philharmonic will affect the orchestra in the long run?
PB: Oh, I think it's very good. He is only 48, but he has accumulated the experience necessary. He wants to be up to date, and he has developed a relationship with his own generation, just as the orchestra has rejuvenated itself. I recently heard him conduct the orchestra for the first time, and the performances were extremely good. There's a really good feeling there.
GP: I don't know how often you get to watch and listen to other conductors at work, but is there anybody out there you've been able to learn from in recent years, or anybody you particularly admire?
PB: At my age I don't learn very much -- but when I see Rattle, David Robertson, or Esa-Pekka Salonen, these younger people are very impressive. They take responsibility, they want to establish themselves as artistic leaders, and they have the kind of strong personalities through which musical life is progressively transformed. It's the system that is not easy to change. You still have all kinds of problems with how to get money.
GP: In all the years you've been a professional musician, what has changed most about the music world you've inhabited?
PB: The system hasn't changed, but the money problems have gotten worse. I remember a time when after the war, German radio could do whatever they wanted. Now the budgets are all squeezed. Music always costs a lot, and the more you work, the more it costs. I'd say that the big change in performing musical life has been that you now have two kinds of repertoire that have not disappeared totally, but are more and more difficult to perform with a big orchestra: baroque music, which has been taken over by specialized groups with an authentic label and period instruments; and contemporary music, because young composers tend to write for smaller groups, where they can have more rehearsal time and control. That damages the life of an orchestra, which should be flexible enough to divide into smaller ensembles -- a baroque group and a contemporary music group, for instance. Unfortunately, that's difficult to organize because orchestras are so rigid.
An interview by the writer Justin Davidson for GREAT PERFORMANCES Online.
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