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GP: How do you look back on your time with Bill?
KO: I feel very close to Bill. I think I always will. We shared times in our lives, not just when we were young, but when we were really becoming artists. We shared sensibilities in what eventually became our work. But I think that because the nature of his work was so demanding, it was difficult to have a relationship. He was on a track --and he was going for it. Having lived with him for so long, I understood how he was developing and what he had to do to get there. It wasn't because we were diverging; it was just hard to maintain careers. That's a bit more personal than I want to get, but it's true. Bill has always been focused on who he is and his performing and his art. One of his great strengths in making work is that he has that focus. But it can also be slightly neurotic.
GP: Neurotic?
KO: Neurotic -- obsessed with performing. Obsessed with, Am I good enough? Can I do this? Where's the next gig going to come from? Am I doing the right thing with my life? It's an incredibly vulnerable thing to be an artist. You're constantly questioning your own choices and the validity of what you're doing, especially if you make work about yourself, there's constant questioning of is this worthy? I don't want to get too personal here, but I feel there's a double edge -- self-effacing, yes, but also very strong-willed. Bill wants to please. He wants to be liked very much. He is genuinely a good person. I don't mean to suggest that he's not, but there's a consciousness, a self-consciousness to him, about who he is and how he's presenting himself. That's what his work is about. He's very conscious about how am I coming off? Does this person like me? He struggles about what's good and what isn't in his work. So I think that there's a kind of self-involvement -- I don't want to say in a pejorative way. But I think that in some ways it's obsessive.
GP: What issues does Bill Irwin face as a performer today?
KO: The issues are really ones of getting older physically and the inability to do physical things that you once could do and you can't anymore. That's a huge issue for any performer -- for anybody who uses their body as their art, as their tool. It's a big deal. And so you have to figure out what you can do instead. You have to figure out how you can still create an artistic life if you don't have the physicality for it anymore. I think it will be interesting to see what he does next. I know that he's been interested in acting for a long time. The things that I've seen him in recently -- the Beckett play -- were wonderful. It may be that he'll turn more to acting roles, which aren't as physically demanding.
GP: What is the dynamic when Bill Irwin works with Geoff Hoyle?
KO: Geoff has skills that Bill didn't have, as he's trained as a classical actor. He has an incredible ear; he has an incredible sense of rhythm; he's very musical. Geoff has those natural talents, which I think Bill always admired and wanted. ... There's always been a tension between them, but I don't think it's been a prohibitive one. They push each other. I think there's always that little edge of who's gonna do what bit and who's gonna get more laughs. [But] they really do seriously respect and admire each other's work. I think that's the bottom line.
GP: What is the importance of "Mr. Fox: A Runimation"?
KO: The significance of Fox is [Bill] copping to the fact that he is jealous of somebody. You know, Bill is Mr. Nice Guy, and he always wants to take care of everyone and be friendly and have everyone love him. He has this great urge to please. [But] there are all kinds of stuff going on underneath the surface. I think that to admit those feelings and to do a piece about them and do them publicly -- it's a huge deal for him. I think all of his work is a self-revelation of some kind. It always has been. But I think that admitting to maybe the less sanguine aspects of your personality, publicly in a performance, is a huge step. It's hard to do and courageous -- I think very courageous.
GP: What is Bill Irwin's legacy?
KO: His legacy, what he has given to us as an audience, is the ability to laugh and to think at the same time. To be able to be completely entertained, to be overwhelmed by virtuosity, but at the same time to really be reflecting about the nature of being human. Bill has managed to combine those things in his strongest work in a way that has been very special.
GP: What challenges has he faced over time?
KO: Whenever he did acting -- film work or television work -- they never knew what to do with him. You know, he wasn't an actor-actor. He certainly had the looks and all of that, but he was an oddball. They tried to make him do funny, silly things and be a clown, but he didn't fall into whatever stereotypes there are in the industry. He was always hard to cast. He's slippery -- I don't mean personally; he doesn't fall into a category easily. He never found the right vehicle in the commercial world to use all of his talents, and I think he was always interested in other things. Everyone would like to have huge mainstream success at some point, but there aren't parts that are perfect for him.
GP: Why is he so successful?
KO: People are drawn to him because they kind of fall in love with him onstage. It's that vulnerability -- you feel for him and you want him to do okay. You want him to triumph. He has the audience with him, and I think that's rare. You're rooting for him and it's funny and it's tragic and you know it's humiliating. It's the stuff of life. The bottom line is you care. You care about this person. You care about what happens. You want to see them perform. It's something that the best actors have, the best dancers have, the best artists have. It's that ability to connect.
GP: Does one of his works in particular stand out in your mind?
KO: "The Marionette." I find that heart-wrenching. There's such a sense of loss in it somehow. There's something about this helpless figure trying to pull himself up. It's incredibly moving and sad. There's a kind of helplessness about trying to forge ahead in the face of just terrible odds. And I find it very moving.
GP: How would you summarize his work?
KO: If you have something that works, keep doing it. With Bill, he's been doing some of the same things for years and years and years. He is always trying to -- to fit things in a jigsaw puzzle kind of way -- I think he likes to try to put them in different sequences, like stringing a necklace in a different way.
Interview for GREAT PERFORMANCES conducted in June 2004.
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