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August 19, 2005

Transcript

BRIEFING AND OPINION

PAUL GIGOT: Long negotiations and generous offers of help from the Europeans have failed to stop Iran from starting up its nuclear plant. The Iranians say they're interested only in a source of energy, not nuclear weapons. The Bush Administration is not convinced. The question is: what next?

Iranian students encircled the Isfahan plant in support of the government decision to resume its nuclear program, and as a symbolic defense of the site against an attack, recalling what happened in 1981, when Iraq -- also an avowed threat to Israel -- warned that its Osirak nuclear reactor was intended to be used "against the Zionist entity."

Israel jets took just 80 seconds to destroy the Iraqi nuclear plant 18 miles south of Baghdad.

Iran had suspended its nuclear activity almost a year ago, after prolonged international pressures and negotiations. Iran's chief negotiator now admits that Iran had stalled the negotiations deliberately, to buy time long enough to complete the Isfahan facility.

HOSEIN MUSAVIAN (IN FARSI): "We needed another year to complete the Isfahan project so that it could be operational."

Iran says it intends to produce only electricity, and not weapons. But several European countries offered to supply Iran with all the necessary fuel and technology needed to generate nuclear power. Iran rejected that offer and restarted its Isfahan plant. It could potentially produce weapons grade material. The Bush administration says it is "deeply suspicious" about Iran's intentions and is pressing Iran to give up its nuclear program.

PRESIDENT BUSH ON ISRAELI TV: All options are on the table.

REPORTER: Including the use of force?

PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, you know, as I say, all options are on the table.

A spokesman for the Iranian Foreign Ministry warned, "If America makes a big mistake in attacking Iran, we will certainly have more options for defending the country."

U.S. intelligence estimates Iran could have a nuclear weapon in five to 10 years. But a presidential commission on weapons of mass destruction concluded the US knows "disturbingly little" about Iran.

Earlier this year, Vice President Cheney warned that another Osirak solution was a possibility. He told a radio talk show audience: "Given the fact that Iran has a stated policy that their objective is destruction of Israel, the Israelis might well decide to act first ... and let the rest of the world worry about cleaning up the diplomatic mess afterwards."

PAUL GIGOT: Bret, for two years now the U.S. and Europe have been on a diplomatic track with Iran, offering certain inducements, trade and other things, in return if Iran gives up its nuclear weapons program. Are there any signs that that strategy is working.

BRET STEPHENS: No, there are no signs whatsoever. In fact, it's backfired completely on us. The Bush Administration, we asked to -- Europe offered to intercede diplomatically in October 2003, the Iranians agreed to suspend their uranium enrichment programs, they cheated on those promises within months so the Europeans went back in November 2004, got another agreement from the Iranians, the Iranians have again reneged on their commitments. And not only have they reneged but they've scoffed at a European offer to provide them with nuclear reactors, nuclear fuel, trade guarantees, security guarantees.

This is a regime that's clearly intent on building a bomb. And we know from internal Iranian government sources that they have used these negotiations simply to play for time.

PAUL GIGOT: Dan, we just had an election, a large election in Iran where a new government -- is that new government showing any signs of bending, any signs of movement to accommodate the rest of the world?

DAN HENNINGER: Not in the least. I think the new government is proving itself to be more hard-line, as we say, than the former government. They've had purges inside that government, they've put much more extreme individuals in charge of the national security apparatus there, they have cracked down on dissidents, they have attacked people in the Kurdish north where there have been demonstrations. I think that probably what this regime is doing is, one reason they want to acquire this nuclear device is so that there will be no more elections in Iran, there will be no possibility of the reform movement inside Iran overturning the regime once they get that bomb.

PAUL GIGOT: Jason, we hear frequently in the United States -- in part, I think, because of Iran's hard line and the lack of progress -- that somehow we just have to get used to the idea, that the world has to get used to the idea of an Iranian nuclear weapon. After all, China has the bomb, Russia has the bomb, Pakistan has the bomb. We don't tell them they have to give it up.

What about this argument that, hey look, we just have to coexist with these people?

JASON RILEY: Well, apart from the fact that if Iran does get a bomb, Saudi Arabia is going to want one, Egypt is going to want one, and who knows where that will stop.

PAUL GIGOT: Proliferation will be great.

JASON RILEY: You have to think about this the way the Iranians think about this. And the geopolitical strategy of the Iranians is the North Korea model. After the first Gulf War, Iran decided that one of the reasons the U.S. went into Iraq and beat back Saddam, and has treated North Korea differently, is because North Korea has a bomb. And their goal since then has been to achieve a bomb. And that is the impetus, and that is the time table that -- that is why time is of the essence here, because that is their goal and that is what they're working towards.

PAUL GIGOT: And if Iran has a bomb, you're also going to see its political/military role and power in the region enhanced, will you not, Bret? You're going to see it's the big dog in that region.

BRET STEPHENS: They're already benefiting from 60 dollars a barrel for their oil. Iranian leaders have said explicitly that one of the purposes of Iran would be to attack Israel. Their influence in places, obviously, like Iraq, but really throughout the Persian Gulf region, will be hugely enhanced. And you know, there isn't anything that we'll really be able to do about it. There's a line that says, well, if they go and get a bomb and they contravene their legal obligations, we'll put sanctions on them. Are you really going to tell me that the Chinese who are hungry for oil and have gas shortages right now are going to vote for sanctions on Iran, especially after they have a bomb?

PAUL GIGOT: Well let's take it before they get one. I mean, the next step, people say, is if the Iranians continue to resist the Europeans and the United States, we take it to the United Nations for some kind of economic sanctions, Dan. Is that going to work?

DAN HENNINGER: It's a total non-starter. With oil -- it's 60 dollars a barrel, and Iran controlling as much of the world's oil output as they do, there's no possibility that we're going to impose economic sanctions and impose higher oil prices on ourselves. That's just a complete non-starter.

PAUL GIGOT: What about diplomatic isolation, containment? That worked against the Serbs, remember, in the 1990s, not letting their public officials, their leaders, attend forums, making them persona non grata all around the world.

JASON RILEY: But it didn't work during the nineties with Iran. We've tried that. Clinton tried that. Clinton tried that in earnest, and it did not produce the fruits that he had hoped for.

BRET STEPHENS: Well, I'm not sure I entirely agree. I think the Iranians do, there is a side of Iran and of the Iranian regime that wants to play its part on the international stage. And I think there's a lot you could do to hurt them. For instance, one scholar, Patrick Clawson, has made the point, how about excluding the Iranians from the World Cup next year? Iran is a soccer-crazy nation. That could have a tremendously beneficial effect, not least to the Iranian people, that the regime that is there is an illegitimate regime and we're not going to include them in these kinds of events. And it would do a lot to spark a pro-Democracy movement as well.

DAN HENNINGER: It seems to me you have to account for the feckless European relationship with Iran. You have to wonder whether they're trying to achieve a modus vivendi with this Iranian regime, and that would not include diplomatic isolation.

PAUL GIGOT: That includes the military. That brings us to the military option, and Gerhard Schroeder this week, after the president said all options are on the table regarding Iran, he said no, let's take military force off the table. Is that something that's going to have to be actively considered here, Dan, in the coming months and years?

DAN HENNINGER: I think ultimately it does. I think President Bush was absolutely right in saying he was going to take no option off the table. Look, if they get a nuclear device it makes it clear that everyone else is going to seek the same. And one of these days one of these countries will use that device -- maybe not on the United States, but it will totally alter foreign relations in that area.

PAUL GIGOT: I would also argue, Bret, that I think that we can't say Israel, you do this, because they don't have the capacity to do it, first of all, militarily the way it would need to be done, because we don't know where all of these places are in Iran. And then you need to bring force for a long way, and a lot of it, to even have a chance of succeeding. And I don't think anybody in the world would be fooled if we said, oh, that was just the Israelis acting alone. Everybody knows that this is something that we might be supporting, too.

Bret, just to finish up. We don't have a lot of time. But what do you think the chances are that before President Bush finishes his second term we use military force against Iran?

BRET STEPHENS: I think the chances of diplomacy working are zero, and the chances of us using military force I'd say 95 to 100 percent.

PAUL GIGOT: Dan quickly.

DAN HENNINGER: I would say 50/50. I think diplomacy, isolating the Iranians, is probably worth trying.

PAUL GIGOT: Jason?

JASON RILEY: I'd put it higher than 50. I think there's a pretty good chance that strategic bombing is what we're going to have to resort to.

PAUL GIGOT: Okay. I'm afraid you're right.