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Alina Das on changing federal immigration laws

In our report on Alabama’s controversial immigration law, one Alabama lawmaker argued that the federal government has dropped the ball on immigration issues. Is he right?

Joining host Scott Simon to discuss this issue is Alina Das. She is an Assistant Professor at the New York University Law School and specializes in protecting the rights of immigrants.

Watch the rest of the segments from this episode.

Comments for this page are closed.


  • rrnordquest

    Can’t even be honest enough to say “illegal immigration”? It was easy to see how your manipulation, and bending of the meaning of words to further your agenda to serve the illegal aliens. Sorry but deportation does not break up families because, a family that is together, stays together, even when deported. You break the law and go to jail, or prison, and you want to cry that the courts broke up a family by putting someone in prison. That is not a valid point to make because, one, no one forced illegal aliens to come here, and two, you already knew what your legal status was, and what could happen if caught here illegally. It also does not matter how hard they work, or that they pay taxes, that is not the whole requirement for legal status, and you know it.

  • Guest

    At least people who are imprisoned are first convicted of the crime by a trial in a court of law.

  • Vgghdc

    America is a nation of laws, once we ignore this fact, we become a third world nation. If you break the law and are illegal, you should be deported. If you have family members here, then they have the choice to follow you or stay here and obey the laws!


    Why is it that a Wife of an American Citizen can’t immigrate legally -  Because she was brought to thiis Country as a Baby, her father and mother a Legal & US Citizen They never took action on their Daughter till she was nearly 21 But since she did not have a single Document showing she crossed the Border legally She can’t ask for Adjustment of Status from INS, but needs to file for
    Residency thru Cd. Juarez, American Consulate; there however she will panished for being here
    illegal almost 22 yrs.. So what one can do – stay Illegal till the Laws are changed, and give all those people a chance.Bring back that Law we had for one short time back in 2000.

  • jonathan

    This show presented only one side. And from a woman who looks like the U.S. isn’t her true home. But hey, I’m just racial profiling.  But let’s see, if a man doesn’t speak english, doesn’t have a driver’s license or insurance, well, duh. How did he afford the truck?  How did he get the job? Also, I can’t sneak into another country, get a job and live there. Why can people do that here?

  • JKJ

    Not every law is just!
    Reagan and now Gingrich are right! There have been many unjust laws on the books in this world. Laws justifying the killing of entire ethnic groups. “its the law” is a poor argument when families get broken up and children are made orphans. There must be a better way to punish people who “illegally” try to make a living and work hard. Orphan children for that is not just!

  • Wendy Poole

    If you are Illegal no lawyers no free medical, Get them the Hell out of here.. stop coddeling them when they jump the fence they loose everything nothing  no anchor babies.. no lawyers no rent paid by DSS no 15 to 20 people to a home running down property values tax paying for legals citizens.. African American and Caucasion people are the MINORITY now. I am sick and tired of this country not doing their job by protecting us Legal citizens from these illegals immergrants who just know every loophole and getting away with it.. The Authorities go do your job without consiquences for protecting us..Get them out..with no lawsuits no money no medical for them no anchor babies.. Let the proper Authorities do the job they are getting paid for Protecting…  And I hope other states sign up  for this LAW especially NEW YORK……

  • Weedeaterlee

    All illegal immigrants need to learn and be able to speak English before becoming Americans. Maybe then we as americans can get a job without having to be bilingual. I’m an American and its hard to get a job because I don’t speak or write Spanish in America.

  • Marco

    She just sounds like another lawyer looking to get more work! I wish more lawyers would uphold the law!

  • Marco

    People who go to court are there for a reason, they are citizens of the country. People without papers literally standing in another country do not need a court because the act of standing on foreign soil makes the conviction! Study the law!

  • Bobby Mays

    I have read, and listened to, a variety of comments concerning this issue.  And, by and large, after you “peel all the bark” away, most comments reflect polarized views.  Deporting all illegal persons is not the answer.  Face, almost all of the ‘legal’ persons in this country came from somewhere else, either directly or indirectly through their parents.  Persons seeking a better way of life should be given an opportunity to do.  And if we have ‘illegals’ who are criminals, we should handle them just like we handle other criminals who happen to be ‘legal.’  I suspect that if these immigrants had a different hue, or if they were from Israel, Germany, or Poland, they’d be welecomed with open arms.

    Bobby Mays

  • Cromanian

     This wench is a babbling idiot!!!!!!! And she’s a lawyer at a university? What a joke!!!!!! The laws on the books are perfect and need no reformation just to satisfy all the illegal wetback parasites living in this country for 25 hours, 25 days, 25 weeks, 25 months or 25 years. Illegal is just that: ILLEGAL! Get a grip! Catch a clue!! Why does everyone expect us to bend over backwards for the illegal latinos who snuck into this country like a river rat? All she talked about were immigrants… if she’s supposed to be so educated and intelligent how could she keep forgetting to use the word “ILLEGAL”? She lives a dream world… little Miss Goody Two Shoes… Even if some wetbacks have been here for 25+ years, that does not change the fact that they are here ILLEGALLY…. And this bit about having to split families up… They knew that when they came here ILLEGALLY… they took the chance, not pay the price… Pack them all up in a cattle car and send them back across the border. That newscaster had a chance to really lay her out but he just sat there like a mindless moron… What a spineless weasel! Does anyone ever stand up for what’s right anymore? For the law? For the legal system? As for the Rep/Dem parties… they don’t care about the law… all they are worried about is wooing the latino community to get the latino vote! Spineless idiots…..

  • Cromanian

     Have you ever seen the statue of Lady Justice? She is blindfolded! And she is blindfolded because she can not see whom she is judging because there is not gray area; there is only black and white! Right and wrong! Legal and illegal… What is so difficult for you to understand about that?

  • bobby mays

    Comments like these by Cromanian do nothing to solve this problem; in fact, it only exacerbates the underlying racism that fuels dislike for persons who ‘don’t look like us.’  I have a news flash for Cromanian:  It was illegal for the colonists to ‘not pay taxes’ on tea shipped (from England) to America…should they have been ‘locked up’ because “illegal is just that:  ILLEGAL?”  Despite these comments, many immigration laws that are on the books are not perfect, and they do need to be reformed.

  • Cromanian

    Is this a joke? You can’t be serious… If you are, then you are a babbling idiot… The only reason the children would become “orphans” is if their parents left them here!!!!! And that would be the parents’ choice… Daaaaah… The parents can and should take their children with them!!!!!!!!!!

  • Cromanian

     Kudos to you! You must be a college regurgitate!!! I’m so impressed… gag me on a spoon! My intentions were, are and will always be to exacerbate negative feelings and attitudes toward any and all criminals and that includes ILLEGAL ALIENS!  I am not at all against immigration as long as it’s legal… All four of my grandparents migrated to The States from the Balkans… But they went the legal process: Ellis Island. They were legal immigrants and had the papers to prove it! Why should it be any different for ILLEGAL LATINOS?????? As for the Colonists, they stood up for their rights and fought the Revolutionary War… Are you proposing that the ILLEGAL LATINOS  start a war against The States? And, when all else fails, pull the Racism card… that’ll work every time… you are truly pathetic………


    Here’s the deal. Through the 60′s and 70′s we let them in, we told them “if your country will kill you for just trying to live, then come here, SCREW THEM!!” They came, and they came in droves. At first they tried to get everything for free (they heard about our “assistan programs” before they even came), and when that was proven to be a problem and blocked, they went to work. They learned they had to work (and not just 1 day a week), so they did, but then they figured how they could scam the system while working, so they did. California’s government came up with Green Cards for them, but once they got the g-cards the mexicans said “we have them now, they can’t kick us out, we have Green Cards”, and from there they fought all day and night to get everything they could handed to them, so they wouldn’t have to do anything to live. They even came up with this “Well, I’m helping other people by fixing their cars, people who can’t afford to pay a garage to have them fixed”. This lasted for awhile, until the gov. found that that was a scam as well because the mexicans would get all of these cars from junk yards, fill their yards up with these cars and would them SIT THERE “FOR YEARS”, NEVER fixing ANY of them!!
    California has had to make law after law after law after law….. to try to keep them from scamming the system into the ground (a system that was orignally set for those that REALLY needed it, NOT ALL OF MEXICO!!!), and everytime Cal. came up with a new, law, the mexicans found a way around it, and when they couldn’t (like with the passing of Proposition 138), they pull their kids out of all of the schools (schools that ARE PAYING FOR THEIR KIDS EDUCATION- “FOR FREE!!”) AND MARCHED IN THE STREETS OF OF CALIFORNIA (all up and down, San Fran., L.A., San Diego- out in Victorville, EVERYWHERE), AND TOLD CALIFORNIA “IF YOU DON’T GIVE US FREE HEALTHCARE, WE’LL DESTROY YOUR STATE!” (hint-hint)
    I left L.A. in 93, and by that time they had bankrupted “13 HOSPITALS” (because each family had a family member go to each clinic/hospital and DEMAND they get this or that for free- AND WILL HOLD EVERYBODY ELSE UP UNTIL THEY GET IT!!!!- I’ve seen this MYSELF- then they take whatever they get AND GO SELL IT ON THE STREET!!!!!). Now on top of this is the CRIME: rapes. robberies, muggings, break ins, vandalizing, drugs, GANGS, MURDERS….!!!!! You see, THEY “ARE NOT” HERE TO JUST WORK AND HAVE A BETTER LIFE, BUT INSTEAD ARE HERE TO DESTROY THIS COUNTRY LIKE THEY DID THEIR OWN!!!! I have dealt with mexicans MY WHOLE LIFE, and what I have gotten from EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM is “We are here to TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK, AND WHEN WE DESTROY IT LIKE HOW WE HAVE MEXICO, THEN WE’RE GOING TO FIND WHERE YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE THEN, THEN GO THERE AND TAKE THAT TOO!”- I’ve heard this ENDLESS TIMES. And when I try to bring up fixing mexico so they don’t have to come here, THEY “ALL” JUMP UP AND YELL “Don’t even think about it, if America went down there WE’D ALL STAND UP AND FIGHT TO THE DEATH TO GET THEM OUT!!!” The reason?- THEY WANT TO KEEP IT JACKED UP SO THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE TO COME UP HERE AND TRASH THIS PLACE (for fun, and YES, THEY HAVE TOLD ME THIS, over and over and over….- for it’s funner for a rapist and/or killer to kill someone innocent rather than someone evil, THAT IS HOW EVIL IS!!!)
    Final: I have worked with MANY mexicans, and what I’ve found there as well is that THEY ARE HERE TO JACK THAT UP AS WELL! First they come in all nice, then after they get some time in, they start going to the boss (or who they can) and try jacking over anybody else that is there (I’ve worked at 3 companies where they did this). First they tell the boss “Did you see what he/she did, that’s no good, you need to get rid of them”. Over and over they do this, even lying constantly to get ANY “American” fired. One reason is because THEY LOVE IT, second is because they want to get one of their buddies in there. These mexicans will even come back after work, trash your work that you did that day, run to the boss the next morning saying “did you see what they did?”, lie to the boss to no end, etc., etc… (but of course they cover up any jack ups they make- TOTAL HYPOCRITES!!), you have no clue what’s going on when the boss calls you in and goes off on you because of what you did the day before, finally you see what the boss is talking about, and you KNOW, INSTANTLY who is behind it, but you can’t prove it because you weren’t there, videotaping them do it at “3 IN THE MORNING!!!!- Then when they get you fired (or completely screwed with your job) and get their buddy in there, then they start on the next, then the next…, until ALL of the Americans are gone and the company is full of nothing but mexicans- AND DON’T THINK THEY ARE THERE TO DO A GOOD JOB EITHER!!!…
    Don’t think that as soon as they cross that border that they INSTANTLY “become American”. There is more to being an American than “just being here”. I can’t even tell you how many jobs had to be “redone” because they framed a whole house with “1″ nail, or watered the paint down so much that they were practically spraying water on walls instead of paint, or did a tile job so bad that even the sub floor had to be ripped up! (they take all of these materials to…. “yes, SELL ON THE STREET!!”- rather than use it on the job like how it’s supposed to be!!!!)- And when they jack up a job they’ll even tell you “So what, if they fire me I’ll just sue them for racism” (I’ve heard this endless times as well).
    Just call ANY Sheriff’s Department in any town that there is a decent size mexican population and ask them about how many rapes, robberies, mugging, murders… there are each month there by them- or call ANY corrections facility and see how many are there, their crimes, their sentences, etc.. Just get a basic, like how many there, how many are in there for felonies, etc., etc…. AND YOU’LL SEE WHAT THEY COST US JUST IN MONEY ALONE TO DEAL WITH THEM!!!! I felt sorry for them in the beginning, but now I “KNOW”, THEY “ALL” HAVE TO GO BACK!!!!! They had their chance, AND THEY DESTROYED THAT TO “NO END!!!!” There are SOOOO MANY things they have done to this country that I’d had to write a novel to cover it all (like MORE THAN ENOUGH GIRLS FROM L.A., SAN FRAN, DIEGO, etc., etc., HAVE DISSAPEARED FOR GOOD (because the mexicans take them off of the streets, EVEN LITTLE KIDS- AND SELL THEM INTO THE SEX TRADE IN ANY AND EVERY OTHER COUNTRY THAT WILL PAY!!!!!! Get it YET????), but I hope this amont ALONE will do it.
    Yes, some of their kids will have to go back with them, but ask yourself, “Who’s kids matter more, YOURS OR THEIRS?”- Because sooner or later “IT WILL” BE YOUR DAUGHTER THAT GETS RAPED BY THEM, SON WHO GETS SHOT BY THEM, YOUR HOUSE THAT GETS BROKEN INTO BY THEM….., the more of them you let in here, THE HIGHER THE CHANCES ARE FOR THAT UNTIL “IT’S INEVITABLE!!!!!” Wanna save yourself, this country, your Grandchildren, Greatgrandchildren…., or do you want the same to happen to them that is happening in mexico now? It should be an easy choice.     

  • Cromanian

     Thank you for bringing up the Israel, German and Polish points… But my question to you is: just exactly how many ILLEGAL Israelis, Germans and Poles are there in the USA? No doubt you could count them on one hand… after all, they can’t just swim across the Atlantic Ocean… but if they did and if there are any here… You could bet your home, your car and your first born, unlike the ILLEGAL LATINOS, they are educated with degrees from universities and speak/write English better than most Americans… They are/would be the ones contributing to society.


    PS. We can’t afford to pay for their schooling either. We pay for it, then they use that against this country. The accounts are too many to name, but there was another one on tonight: This Alina Das who is an ass. professor at NYU’s law school (who’s schooling was COMPLETELY PAID FOR “BY US, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!”- when I myself can’t get into school AT ALL, WHEN IT WAS MY FATHER, GRANDFATHER, GREATGRANDFATHER, etc., etc., etc…. THAT WERE A PART OF BUILDING THIS COUNTRY UP TO WHAT IT IS NOW!!!- where was her family when we fought in Vietnam, the Korean war, WWII, WWI….?- HERE HELPING OUT?— HELL NO!!!!!!), and all she could say was “You all have to let ALL mexicans in this country and let them do whatever they want” (in short). No mention of all that they do against this country to hurt it, the people, etc., etc., or to even destroy it. Instead EVERYTHING was “It’s wrong for you all to NOT let us all just come here and do what we want”, while SHE SURE AS HELL KNOWS WHAT MEXICO’S LAWS ARE FOR IMMIGRATION!!!!! (like I wrote before- TOTAL HYPOCRITES!!!!!)     


    Hey BM, you “clearly have NO CLUE” WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO THIS COUNTRY AND THE PEOPLE HERE!”  You are NOTHING than another one of those that talks with NO investigation AT ALL!!!  Why is this subject so nailed on the mexicans?- BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE CRAP THEY PULL!!!!  Are we saying these things about the Chinese, the Poles, the Japanese, Canadians, etc., that are here illegally?  NO, why?- Because they aren’t here jacking this country over in any way they can.  PULL YOUR HEAD OUT!!!! (or promise to NEVER vote AGAIN)


    How about “It’s either your kids or theirs?”  Know anything JKJ?  Have you checked the statistics on the rapes, robberies, kidnappings, murders… etc., etc., etc… they commit each MONTH!!!  Have you checked what they cost us each year in MONEY ALONE?  Reagan is seeing what he has done to this country for that now, and Gingrich’s Judgement Day is coming as well.  It’s not where they come from, what they look like, IT’S WHAT THEY DO!!!!- For we have no problem with all of the other illegals we have here right?  The ONLY 2 we have a problem with are the muslims and the mexicans- BECAUSE OF THEIR CRAP!!!!!  Simple as that.

  • Cromanian

    Illegals are not citizens of the USA and, therefore, have no rights to a trial…. in a court of law.

  • Anonymous

    Alina Das presented a very biased, some might say conflict of interest, viewpoint during the piece.

    1) Conflating illegal immigration with legal immigration is not a legal argument. Conflating illegal entry to the USA by illegal aliens with legal immigrants is also done frequently as a basis for an economic argument, that is also a flawed economic argument. There are HUGE differences between legal immigrants to the USA and illegal aliens. Alina Das ignoring the differences says a lot about her comments.

    2) Would be nice if Alina Das would have properly answered the question about jobs. Hey Alina Das, if the unemployment rate in the USA is 25%, should illegal aliens still be permitted to enter the USA at-will? Just how high should the unemployment rate in the USA get before entry by illegal aliens is stopped?

    Do they teach “full employment” macroeconomics at NYU? Evidently Alina does not know that a labor shortage does not exist in the USA until the national USA unemployment rate reaches 4%. For several years the unemployment rate reported has been close to 10%

    Quiz time Alina…how many times in the last 31 years has the USA unemployment rate reached under 5 or 6 %? ANSWER: Twice, once in 1998 and once in 2006, but neither time was durable, because 1998 was because of Y2K anxiety hiring, beginning of the housing bubble because the capital gains tax reform of 1997, and the temporary dot com telecom bubble, and 2006 was almost entirely because of the housing bubble. THE USA HAS NOT HAD A LABOR SHORTAGE IN THE LAST 31 YEARS.

    3) Would be nice if Alina Das was forced to respond at that round table to someone else that disagrees with her. Must be nice to be the only one at a round table answering questions about this. Very biased approach, next time permit the round table to have 2 people there answering the questions.

  • Ronnie

    why do people so soon forget 9-11 and what tougher laws on immigration might have helped that day, if people want to come here make it so that they at least can be traced and found, im an american and i haft to be in the system fingerprints and all and i was born here so any one else that wants to be a part of our society should under the same laws that i do

  • Ronnie

    if we dont keep our gaurd up and make it tough on immigration then we may experiance another attack like 9-11 that was a very tragic and unforgetable day, or at least it was for me, also no matter what color the skin if a person comes into our country they should be every bit as tracable as i am with fingerprinting and id, along with legal papers. if people are fingerprinted they wont be detained for an extended time, the athourities can pull them out of the data base in a reasonable amount of time. so lets keep a weary eye out and do everything we can to prevent another 9-11

  • Ronnie

    if you will look what happenned on 9-11-01 you will see why we have touger laws on immigration do you realize that if those terorist hadve had backgroundchecks, and been forced to go through a proceess that eliminates national threats that we might have saved alot of lives that day, and another thing i live here and im proud of it and i would gladly go and lay my life down for my country, an illegal allien dos not haft to fight hes here on a free ride and thats all you can say about anyone thats here illegelly

  • Ronnie

    amen, its crazy for an english speakin nation to hafta speak another language before we can get a job and feed our families but an illegal comes over here and gets a job and cant speak  a word ofo our national language, i think we need someone in our presidency and other high offices that believe in the american way the american dream, we have people here starving that are legel and cant get any help and to me thats just unbelievable that somebopdy that is a legal citizen would thimk that we should turn a blind eye to that sort of injustice

  • Ronnie

    i just realized your right the commentator just ask the easy questions, well i dont know he mite have gotten fired if he brought up terrorism or rapes an gangs and the list gos on, its a shame that some people go to our law shcools and then try to change the very laws that they studied, well i guess thats because they went to our universities with an agenda to do just that

  • Cromanian

     excellent point! i agree totally!! what ticks me off more than anything is how all businesses have catered to the latinos… press 1 for English marque 2 para espanol… I HATE IT!!!!!!!!!!!! why not a number for French, Japanese, Chinese, Italian, Russian? No just the freaking latinos……… Our government and big business are the culprits…. they brought this upon us by not forcing them to learn English… Hell, now, anything legal has to be in English and spanish… Bizarre…. absolutely bizarre……….

  • Cromanian

    another good point! anymore it seems that all the news channels: CNN, HLN, MSNBC  as well as others, have guests on who are sympathetic toward the poor, little helpless ILLEGAL ALIENS!  and the commentators “pose” questions that might show how wrong the “guest” is but the guests always come back with a bleeding heart reply… and it drops right then and there… Want someone to do a tap dance on your last good nerve? Try watching Current TV… that @#!* station supports all of it: ILLEGAL ALIENS, MUSLIMS, SHARIA LAW…. it’s an abomination!!!!!!

  • Ronnie

    youve got to b kidding me, we have an american college that created a class for the purpose of making life easier on illegal immigrants. why not create a class on cerial killing and put manson in as teacher

  • Ronnie

    i hafta amen that one we used to be a nation under one god now alot of people are confiused about what americans do believe in, i mean look what has happened to us just the last 20 yrs alone! we have smutt forced on us if we want to watch a decent tv show anymore  we hafta accept thier agenda or just not watch anything at all. id almost bet that none of these postings will be heard lol


    Hey dude, “you have to ask?”  How is it that she is a lawyer but fights against the law (when IT SUITS HER?)?  Uh…, SHE’S MEXICAN!!!- Which just proves all the more what is what.  mexicans THINK that EVERY LAW “HAS” TO BE CHANGED FOR THEM AND THEM ALONE!!!!- Whether they are dirt poor, filthy rich, braindead, educated….. etc., etc., and this Alina Das is just another testament to that.

  • dave frasier

    It is not an immigration problem; it is an invasion

    Driven by the desire for cheap wage slaves, for greedy


    The invasion of an unarmed army of foreign nationals to
    be worked as slaves so we can enjoy cheap food and some farmers/corporations
    can get richer.


    In 1986 about 3.6 million legalized. Now the 2010
    estimate is about 12 million. In 2034 the estimate is 48.8 million illegal
    foreign nationals living in the USA.  The
    USA cannot absorb that many criminals and continue to be a country of law
    abiding citizens and a good place to live.


    We cannot afford to have the USA become more like Mexico.
    The world cannot afford to have the USA become more like Mexico.

    If the illegal foreign nationals want a better life for
    themselves and their families then they should stay in their countries and work
    and fight for a better life.


    Special thanks to Martin Luther, King Henry VII and Queen
    Elizabeth for the defeat of the Spanish Armada. (Spanish Roman Child-Sex-Abuse
    Church Armada (RCC)) America could have easily been dominated by the RCC, and
    developed just like Mexico, Central America, and South America, under the thumb
    of the RCC, overpopulated, underemployed and undereducated. Where would they
    run to, to get away from their mess they have created?


    The invasion of an unarmed army of foreign nations is a
    clear and present danger to the sovereignty of the USA.

  • RdrPhoto

    In order for a illegal to work in the US they must get a fake ID. So that is two crimes to start illegal immigration and ID fraud, stolen ID’s. You do the crime you must be willing to do the time. We must not reward someone who has broken the laws of this Country by rewarding them with citizenship. That would be a slap in the face to any and all immigrants who came here the legal way.
    This is why we should stop the anchor baby law.

  • Fox

    To get an eye opening view of just what is going to happen to the USA if this invasion is not stopped soon, please click on this link below.

     It will take you to a video called “Immigration Gumballs”

     And it is absolutely shocking.

    Good luck, America.
     We are going to need it.

  • Cromanian

    Good points! I agree totally. But something else to be considered: any and all companies that hire illegals should suffer heavy fines and repeat offenders should serve jail time! As for “anchor babies”… that practice does not apply to illegals… it was enacted after the civil war and was intended for babies of freed black slaves. None the less, when the ILLEGALS are finally deported, they need to take their anchor babies with them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Tmcghee

    Well it’s pretty simple – illegal is illegal NOt any other word like undocumented..I am a legal immigrant who worked hard to achieve in my career as a professional although I had to still go through the Legal channels to get my citizenship along with over $15000 in lawyers fees . No I am not rich it’s just that I believe that you should not break the law as it is a CRIME to enter another country without the correct visa or papers..Try entering China without the correct Visa there is no difference….Yes even I came here for a better life for myself and my family and it took over 10 yrs of hard work and going through every legal step to gain citizenship – WHY? should others be simply granted a FREE pass…PBS is not representing the wider population on this manner…