BOB ABERNETHY, host: Religious groups held rallies and a 48-hour prayer vigil in front the Supreme Court this week as the justices heard oral arguments over Arizona’s controversial immigration law. At issue in the case is whether the state law infringes on the federal government’s authority to establish and enforce immigration policy. But several faith groups argue the law violates the dignity of immigrants and could result in racial profiling.

For more on this I am joined by Kim Lawton, managing editor of this program, and Patricia Zapor, a staff writer with Catholic News Service who’s been covering the faith community and immigration. Pat, it’s nice to have you back here again.

PATRICIA ZAPOR (Staff Writer, Catholic News Service): Thank you, it’s good to be back.

ABERNETHY: The Catholic bishops and many other religious leaders want a whole new kind of approach to immigration. What specifically, what exactly do they want?

ZAPOR: Well, that could take the whole program to explain. They want a comprehensive approach, something that gives people who are already here illegally the chance to legalize their status so that they can pull their families together, reunite torn-apart families, work legally, be able to go home to their home countries and visit their families there. They want a path for jobs. There’s a whole assortment of things.

ABERNETHY: Any likelihood that they might get those things any time soon?

ZAPOR: I think that’s probably very unlikely in an election year, although it might make for some good political demanding during this season.

KIM LAWTON (Managing Editor, Religion & Ethics Newsweekly): One of the arguments this particular week, as the case was at the court, from the religious community was that some of the local laws could hinder their ministry. What were they talking about?

ZAPOR: Well, this came up most conspicuously in 2006 in a version of legislation that passed the House included a provision that would make it illegal for anybody to help people who are in the country illegally. Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles, then the archbishop, at that time told his priests that if this bill passes I am not going to expect you to follow through with that, to follow that law. It’s seen as an imposition on the rights of people of faith to take care of others.

ABERNETHY: People talk about the rights of other people, too, and what do the religious leaders say to those who say look, we’ve got laws, and laws need to be enforced and obeyed?

ZAPOR: Well, I think the religious leaders agree that states, government have a right to enforce their borders, but their arguments against the current immigration situation relate to the civil rights era, when Dr. Martin Luther King and bishops and priests and rabbis were at the forefront of arguments that the laws requiring segregation were inhumane, and they were unjust laws, that they had a right and an obligation to fight against those laws.

LAWTON: What are some of the theological and moral arguments that these religious leaders, really across a pretty broad spectrum, are making on this?

ZAPOR: Well, and they go back to the Old Testament and into the New Testament to calls to take care of the stranger, to take care of those people who have no rights in a society. They are throughout scriptures. That’s one of the main things that they go to.

ABERNETHY: There was some new data that came out this past week about the number of immigrants from Mexico going down for the first time in a long time. Does that change things at all?

ZAPOR: Not really, because there are a lot of people who are in the country illegally, to begin with, and that hasn’t particularly—doesn’t reflect a slowing of migration from Central America, from South America. Just because the situation in Mexico is changing doesn’t really change the whole picture all that much.

ABERNETHY: Situation changing? What? Better job opportunities?

ZAPOR: In Mexico, yes. Mexico’s economy has improved, there’s a lower birthrate, an assortment of factors involved in that.

ABERNETHY: Pat Zapor of Catholic News Service, many thanks.

ZAPOR: Thank you.

BOB ABERNETHY: A new Vatican document this week called for sweeping changes in the global financial system in order, it said, to put “the common good” at the center of economic activity. One of the most controversial proposals would create an international political authority that would have broad power to regulate financial markets. The document was issued by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace. It said changes are needed to address the quote “inequalities and distortions of capitalist development.”

Giving to the poor was one of many issues raised in a new survey of U.S. Catholics. According to the results, 60% now believe you can be a good Catholic without donating time or money to the poor. That number was 44% in 2005. The survey also found that a majority of Catholics now believes that individuals – not church authorities – should be the ones to make decisions about abortion, homosexuality and other social issues.

Joining me now are Kim Lawton, managing editor of this program and Kevin Eckstrom editor of Religion News Service. Welcome to you both. Kevin can you explain this astonishing figure that 60% of those surveyed, 60% of Catholics in this country say, they can be good Catholics without at the same time giving money to the poor or giving time to helping the poor.

KEVIN ECKSTROM (Editor, Religion News Service): It’s one of the great sort of paradoxes that this survey picked up. The other figure that was worth mentioning here is that two out of three Catholics said that helping the poor and the church’s teaching on the poor is important to me as a Catholic. So, they see it as core to the Catholic identity but it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re actually going go out and do something about it. And it’s sort of broadly reflective of this trend that the survey picked up that I’m a Catholic and I’ll go to mass because I want the Eucharist, I want the liturgy, I think that the core teachings are important but I am not going to do it because some bishop somewhere tells me that I have to. Weekly mass attendance is down to like 30% and the number of people who go to church once a month is actually higher than people who go to weekly. So people are doing it on their own terms.

KIM LAWTON (Managing Editor, Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly): And, also, in that survey, it did find that a big majority, 88% of Catholics, said that helping the poor, it was meaningful for them that their church had concern for the poor. It’s just, again, what the church says and does and how it translates into individuals’ lives. As one author of the survey said, American Catholics like being Catholic but they like to do it on their own terms, as well.

ABERNETHY: And the confirmation of some other long trends. For instance, making up your own mind about social and moral concerns rather than taking instructions from the hierarchy.

ECKSTROM: Yeah the big number there was on homosexuality, which is sort of a flashpoint issue but I think it’s telling. The number of people who say the church and church leaders should have the final word on the morality of homosexuality or same-sex marriage has dropped by half in the last 25 years. No other issue has seen that sort of shift but I think it’s really telling where people say, you know what, I’ve got gay friends, I’ve got a gay brother or gay neighbors. There’s a disconnect here between what the church is telling me and what my life experience is telling me and so I’m not going to necessarily go along with the church on this one.

ABERNETHY: And what are the implications of a third of Catholics now being Hispanic?

ECKSTROM: Well, within a generation they are likely to be the majority of the Catholic Church in the United States. And what that means, in practical terms, is that Spanish language mass might become the norm and English language mass is going to be sort of what they do on the side, on Saturday nights.

LAWTON: And some of these economic issues may come to the fore, as well. And again, going back to the Vatican document, I mean, a lot of the input for that came from outside the United States as church leaders from Europe, but also Latin America, have contributions about what the church has to say about the poor. And sometimes American Catholics weren’t, there was a lot of mixed reaction among American Catholics to that Vatican document. I mean some religious conservatives, Catholic conservatives, really tried to dismiss it a little bit and say it didn’t have the full force of a papal teaching but it certainly did quote from popes who have raised concerns about the poor.

ABERNETHY: And reminded everybody about how very liberal the church teachings are about how the poor should be treated.

LAWTON: Catholic social teaching does have what many people consider very liberal values when it comes to the poor. Some of the folks this week tried to associate this document with the Occupy Wall Street folks and the Vatican officials said this was not a direct response to Occupy Wall Street. But I saw a lot of similar language. The Vatican document criticized excessive greed as being sinful and evil. Certainly that’s a big theme with Occupy Wall Street. Talked about social inequities being morally wrong and again, that’s in the Vatican document.

ABERNETHY: Many thanks to Kim Lawton and Kevin Eckstrom.

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: In Arizona, a tough new immigration law is prompting widespread protest from many in the religious community. It requires police in the state to check the status of anyone they suspect may be in the country illegally. To protest it many in the faith community have designated this weekend as a special time for prayer for immigrants. Among those condemning the law are the US Catholic bishops, who have long lobbied for comprehensive immigration reform.

Bishop Gerald Kicanas

We want to talk now with one bishop on the frontline of the battle. He is Gerald Kicanas, bishop of the Roman Catholic diocese of Tucson Arizona. Bishop, welcome. Several lawsuits were filed this week, more are promised, more are in the works, some of them from clergy. Where does the Church stand on this? Are you going to try to stop this bill, this law?

BISHOP GERALD KICANAS (Roman Catholic Diocese of Tucson, Arizona): Even the Arizona legislators, Bob, are considering modifications to the bill, which suggests that they themselves are concerned about how it could be misinterpreted. So there will be legal action, certainly, and we’ll monitor that and participate where we feel it would be appropriate.

ABERNETHY: Do you think the church might become a party to the lawsuits to try to stop the bill?

BISHOP KICANAS: I don’t know that we’ll be bringing the lawsuits forward. Those will be brought forward by, certainly, others, but we will review those, and perhaps consider being a friend of the court where it would be appropriate.

ABERNETHY: Do you think in the end that the bill can be stopped, that the law can be stopped?

BISHOP KICANAS: Well, there is great national concern, certainly concern within our state among religious leaders, among many portions of our community. It has to be addressed that this bill does not well represent the state of Arizona and is not going to resolve the issues that we are facing.

ABERNETHY: Bishop, remind us again of what the church says, what Christian teachings say about the stranger.

BISHOP KICANAS: Every Christian tradition speaks of the importance of welcoming the stranger, that every human being is to be treated with dignity and respect, and so for us in the church that is a core message of our teaching—that all human life from conception till natural death is to be respected, and certainly the migrant is among those who are the littlest and weakest among us, and they need to be respected and treated with the dignity they deserve.

ABERNETHY: But as you know perhaps better than anyone, people feel so strongly about this. Many people in Arizona, they want to stop the illegal immigration, they want to get rid of some, of the people who are already there. They fear crime, they feel changes in culture. You’ve been getting a lot of calls, I’m sure. What do you say to people, many of them, I’m sure, your friends, who say, “We disagree with you on this”?

BISHOP KICANAS: Well, certainly, I first have to listen, to hear what they are feeling, their concerns, their worries, and then try to help them to see what the church is teaching, because a lot of times people haven’t really heard what is being said or haven’t read the law, and so it’s important to encourage them to learn about the situation, understand it better, and most important if they could come to meet the migrant I think some of their fears and concerns would be alleviated.

ABERNETHY: Bishop Gerald Kicanas of Tucson, Arizona, many thanks.

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: Now a report on the divisions over immigration. With Congress unable to agree on immigration law reform, many local governments are trying to act on their own to discourage illegal immigrants from settling in their towns. Some say that’s just protecting their communities, but others call it racism. A federal court has ruled that an anti-immigrant ordinance in Hazleton, Pennsylvania is unconstitutional, but that decision is being appealed, and until it’s settled other local governments are acting. One place in which opinion has been sharply polarized is Northern Virginia, as Lucky Severson reports.

Chris Pannell

CHRIS PANNELL (Resident, Manassas, Virginia, speaking during meeting of the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors): I have to tell you this is one of the happiest days in my life.

LUCKY SEVERSON: Chris Pannell is a fourth-generation resident of Manassas, Virginia and she is happy, to say the least, that the county Board of Supervisors approved a tough new measure to crack down on illegal immigrants.

Ms. PANNELL: I’ve certainly prayed about this matter for many, many years. It’s just devastating. It’s heartbreaking, too.

SEVERSON: She is referring to the negative impact she thinks the influx of immigrants has had on her community, especially illegal immigrants.

Ms. PANNELL: I feel that all of these things — the crowding of our schools, the trash, overcrowding in the house — all together are just changing quality of life for us, and I can’t put a price tag on the quality of life that’s lost here.

BRUCE E. TULLOCH (Loudoun County Board of Supervisors, speaking during meeting): We want everyone to enjoy the American dream, but the American dream must be earned. It cannot be stolen.

SEVERSON: Local and state governments have approved hundreds of tough new immigration resolutions since Congress failed to pass national legislation. But some religious leaders, like Father Robert Menard, say they are deeply troubled by the tone of the debate — that it goes against the precepts of all the major faiths. Father Menard is also disturbed about what is not being discussed.

Father ROBERT MENARD (St. Francis of Assisi Parish, Triangle, Virginia): I think one of the great sins is the silence that is echoing around this topic. The whole discussion seems to be around the question of law. No one’s talking about the values to care for those who are being oppressed — to treat the alien in the land with respect and dignity.

Father Robert Menard

JOHN STIRRUP (Supervisor, Gainesville District, Prince William County, Virginia): In terms of where we are seeing a lot of the complaints about illegal immigration.

SEVERSON: Supervisor John Stirrup says the outcry he hears from constituents has everything to do with the law. He introduced the Prince William County resolution, in his words, “to stop the bleeding.”

Mr. STIRRUP: We have literally millions of illegal aliens crossing into — crossing our border every year with no stem to the flow.

SEVERSON: John Stirrup’s resolution is said to be one of the strictest of its kind in the country.

Mr. STIRRUP: Many folks have raised the question is this going to be a door-to-door search or are people going to be stopped on the street and asked for their papers? And that’s the furthest thing from the truth.

SEVERSON: The resolution is being studied to determine if it’s constitutional, but as it stands now the new law says anyone who is seeking public services can be questioned about their immigration status. If they’re without proper ID, they can be deported. The same is true with a minor traffic violation.

Mr. STIRRUP: An officer stops you for an infraction of the law, whether it’s a violation of federal, state or local law, and the officer has probable cause to believe that you are here illegally, he may ask you that question. And if the answer’s affirmative, then he may detain you.

Fr. MENARD: It’s causing concern and, in some cases, real fear.

SEVERSON: Father Robert Menard says the anti-immigrant fervor is creating a culture of fear on both sides.

Fr. MENARD: People fear to go across their street, or to knock on the door and to get to know their neighbor, whether they are from one culture of another. And so the suspicion builds.

SEVERSON: There was a palpable fear at this labor center in Herndon, Virginia. Dozens of Hispanics, mostly undocumented, show up here every morning to find a job where they can earn $80 to $100 a day.

Abel has been in this country five years trying to support the five children he couldn’t support in El Salvador. He says the jobs are drying up because employers are afraid.

Jaime’s visa has expired. He says it’s very hard to be away from his six kids, but he could barely feed them when he was in Peru. He thinks Americans are decent people who don’t understand his situation.

Edwin Andrade, a local church pastor, says the controversy has left Hispanics under a cloud of suspicion, judged guilty by association, by the color of their skin — even those here legally.

(to Pastor Andrade): Does it concern you that people would look at you and say you could be an illegal?

EDWIN ANDRADE (Pastor, Nueva Rivera Presbyterian Church, Sterling, Virginia): Yeah. Does it concern me? Yeah, to a degree. It has happened. It happens all the time.

SEVERSON: Edwin and other church volunteers sponsor a lunch for the migrant workers and offer some comforting words the workers rarely hear.

Pastor ANDRADE: We want for you to have a place. We want you to have a place that you feel you are welcome in; that you don’t have to look over your shoulder.

SEVERSON: Jose and his wife are here illegally. Their child was born here. Jose says he came from El Salvador to escape poverty — that he does jobs most legal residents wouldn’t do. He has a message for Americans.

JOSE (through translator): I would like them to know that there is no Hispanics here who has come to hurt you.

Ms. PANNELL: I hear of crimes being committed around here. You know, I’ve heard of several people who have taken their trash out getting robbed at knifepoint.

Mr. STIRRUP: I think what people are concerned about is the lawlessness that has come with illegal immigration in the area, and it starts with those homes that are grossly overpopulated.

Ms. PANNELL: And there’s usually 10 or 15 cars at night there.

SEVERSON: Chris Pannell took us on a tour of her neighborhood.

Ms. PANNELL: When you see 20 people on a porch like, for example, like back there at a time, it’s pretty telling that’s probably not your typical family.

SEVERSON: You say you have more rats in the neighborhood?

Ms. PANNELL: Yeah, we’ve never seen rats in the neighborhood until recent months when the trash has gotten up really tall.

Fr. MENARD: I think it’s important that we name the sin that is part of every community and every tradition. I’m speaking specifically of racism.

Ms. PANNELL: It’s not about race at all. It’s very simple. It’s about legal versus illegal.

SEVERSON: One thing that riles critics of illegal immigrants is that they send such a large amount of their earnings back home, reportedly as much as $45 billion last year.

Pastor ANDRADE: The fact is that a lot of people who are undocumented do pay taxes, because the IRS provides a temporary tax number which they can contribute to the system.

OMAR (through translator): When I came to this country, I started paying taxes right away. I have always paid my taxes.

SEVERSON: Omar and Jesaina have been in the U.S. seven years. They have a young son and another child on the way.

(to Omar): If it gets too bad, will you go back to Honduras?

OMAR (through translator): Eventually we would return, but our intention is to fight to stay here because we have made an important part of our life here. .

SEVERSON: One reason so many immigrants have moved to Northern Virginia is because of the explosive growth of new construction. Contractors are often desperate for workers.

(to Mr. Stirrup): What do you do with employers who employ illegals?

Mr. STIRRUP: Well, that was not part of our resolution. We anticipate resolutions beyond what we’re doing now.

SEVERSON: Until recently, Omar had a full-time job which he lost when his employer became afraid that he might be visited by immigration authorities. These days, Omar can barely find day work.

OMAR (through translator): I feel that it is a great injustice to be treated as we are being treated, because we come here to work hard. We give a lot back to this country.

JESAINA (through translator): This law makes life very difficult for us. I cannot return to my country. I don’t want to return to my country, because life is very hard there.

PANNELL: I’m still compassionate. But they’ve broke the law, and I still believe those people need to go back home.

SEVERSON: Father Menard says among Christian, Jewish, and Islamic traditions civil law has always been subservient to values and judgment.

Fr. MENARD: If your family is struggling to survive, then to steal a piece of bread is okay. It’s not only okay it’s something that you’re required to do by your moral responsibility to provide for your family.

SEVERSON: Jose says he had heard about the American dream before he came here.

(to Jose): Do you think you will find it?

JOSE (through translator): Maybe some day, somewhere, somehow. But I don’t think in this country, because in this country they don’t want us.

SEVERSON: The county recently closed down its day-work center, so it’s even less likely that Jose and many others will find the American dream in this country as long they’re here illegally.

For RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY, I’m Lucky Severson in Herndon, Virginia.

ABERNETHY: All those on camera in that story gave us permission to use their pictures.