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TRANSCRIPT:
Episode no. 348
July 28, 2000
BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: Coming up, an election in Kansas in which evolution is the big issue. Should the Board of Education have de-emphasized its teaching in the public schools?
Ms. CAROLINA McKNIGHT (Mainstream Coalition): Kansas has been known always as a place where we had strong and progressive public education for our children. And this has cast a pall on that.
ABERNETHY: And in the aftermath of cult violence, a French proposal to limit the activities of religious minorities. But is it a violation of religious liberty?
Plus, amid the destruction of religious symbols, the search for peace in Kosovo among people still consumed by fear and vengefulness.
Welcome. I'm Bob Abernethy. It's good to have you with us.
BOB ABERNETHY: As the presidential election season gets into full swing this coming week with the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia, several church-state issues are in the news. The Christian Coalition won a round this week in its ongoing battle with the Internal Revenue Service over the proper boundaries between religion and politics. A federal judge ordered the IRS to refund $169.29 in taxes paid by the Coalition in 1990. At issue was whether the Coalition qualified for religious tax-exempt status. Last year, the IRS ruled that some Coalition projects were partisan politicking and, therefore, not tax exempt.
BOB ABERNETHY: Another church-state issue -- an old, familiar one -- has resurfaced in politics in Kansas where campaigns for next Tuesday's primary elections reflect that state's new argument over teaching evolution in the schools. Should it be evolution alone or evolution and creationism? Who should decide? Our reporter is Judy Valente.
JUDY VALENTE: The normally obscure race for state Board of Education is getting the most attention here in Kansas and around the country.
Unidentified Woman: All in favor of the amendment, raise your hand please.
VALENTE: The reason? In a controversial vote last year, the state board decided to de-emphasize the theory of evolution, allowing local school districts to make the teaching of evolution optional and opening the door to the teaching of creation theories.
Ms. LINDA HOLLOWAY (Republican Incumbent): We didn't ban the teaching of evolution. We've never -- that was never the intent of anybody nor is it true today. Evolution was being presented as a fact, and we wanted children to have the opportunity to investigate.
VALENTE: Linda Holloway was president of the board at the time of the vote and is now in a tight race for re-election. She is a publicly avowed conservative Christian. Her church displays her campaign signs. Evangelical Christian churches are expected to play a pivotal role in the primary. Many observers see the vote as a referendum on the strength of conservative Christians to promote a political agenda. The election has given rise to challengers, all eager to show their own religious credentials, running as pro-evolution candidates. Ron Patton, a Presbyterian minister, is among them.
Mr. RON PATTON (Democratic Candidate): Kansas education has been thrust back at least a century by the decision the state Board of Education regarding creation stories being -- faith-based stories being equivalent with science-based theory.
Ms. SUE GAMBLE (Republican Candidate): Our kids need a good, strong basic education, and that basic education includes evolution and the geologic time line and the age of the Earth and the age of the universe and the Big Bang theory. It includes all of that.
VALENTE: The issue goes far beyond Kansas. It gets to the fundamental questions of how the world began, what was the origin of life, and how should the schools handle the question of God. Nearly all scientists and science textbooks affirm Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution. They say the evidence is overwhelming that higher forms of life evolved from lower forms over billions of years through a series of natural changes.
Professor MARY ASHLEY (Professor of Biological Sciences, University of Illinois): To ask me what the evidence for evolution is is analogous to asking an electrical engineer what the evidence for electricity is. To me, the evidence for evolution is just overwhelming and comes from all areas of biology and geology. We have -- from Paleontology, we have the fossil record that shows a progression of life forms through time. That's indisputable.
VALENTE: Creationists recognize the role of a supreme being. Some of them take the creation story in Genesis literally. They believe the Earth is only several thousand years old and that God created life in the forms it has now. Other creationists accept evolution, but insist God set the process in motion and that it has continued over time, as God intended. Still others believe that nature and human beings are far too complex to be the result of random events in the natural world. Evolution, they say, doesn't explain human creativity or consciousness. They argue the universe is the work of an intelligent agent, the theory of Intelligent Design.
Mr. GREG QUIGGLE (Moody Bible Institute): You pull any creator out of the factor, that makes human beings merely part of material realm; you become materialistic so that all we are are collections of DNA, energy, matter, etc., etc., etc.
VALENTE: Public sentiment is so intense that Kansas City Public Television recently produced a dramatic reading from the famous Scopes Monkey Trial. The current debate echoes the arguments made in the Scopes Trial, held 75 years ago this month in Tennessee.
Mr. JAMES CROMWELL ("Charles Darwin"): What we find today is a brazen and bold attempt to destroy learning as was ever made in the Middle Ages. The only difference is we have not provided that they should be burned at the stake.
Mr. ED ASNER ("William Jennings Brown"): For these parents have a right to say that no teacher paid by their money to rob their children of faith in God and send them back to their houses skeptical infidels or agnostics or atheists.
VALENTE: Though John Scopes was ultimately convicted of violating state law, the teaching of evolution has become a standard part of science classes, to the exclusion of other creation theories. These Kansas educators, attending a forum on the Intelligent Design theory, say they don't want to be locked into the teaching of evolution alone.
Mr. ROGER DeHART (Science Teacher): I wish my school board members would realize that what I'm trying to do is promote an openness, an open dialogue.
VALENTE: It is unclear whether any Kansas school districts are now teaching creation theory to the exclusion of evolution.
Mr. KEN BINGMAN (Biology Teacher): Some of the newer teachers are a little more reticent to teach evolution and to bring up the topic because of all the controversy.
VALENTE: The evolution debate has even spilled over into the Kansas congressional race where candidate Greg Musil has made it the leading issue in the Republican primary.
(Excerpt from political advertisement)
Unidentified Announcer: Have you read what they're saying about Kansas? 'They're ignorant country bumpkins.' 'It's really Oz.' 'The Kansas school board's evolution decision reeked of absurdity and ignorance and was a national embarrassment.'
Mr. GREG MUSIL (GOP Congressional Candidate): I'm Greg Musil, Republican for Congress.
VALENTE: Musil claims the board's decision has blackened Kansas' reputation for high academic standards.
Mr. MUSIL: Kansas always had trouble recruiting companies to Kansas. We're not the first choice of people. Now we have another problem.
Ms. CAROLINA McKNIGHT (Mainstream Coalition): I'm saddened -- I'm truly saddened by the fact that this has come to our state. I don't think we'll ever recover. I don't think the state will ever recover from the bad publicity that we've received. Kansas has been known always as a place where we had strong and progressive public education for our children. And this has cast a pall on that.
VALENTE: The outcome of the election is hard to predict, but a wide range of groups from around the country will be watching the vote. For RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY, this is Judy Valente reporting.
BOB ABERNETHY: In France, religious groups are anxiously watching the progress of a proposed law that would limit the activities of cult religions and could even ban some of them. France has had some serious problems with fringe organizations recently, but that may have contributed to what a U.S. government agency last week called a frightening trend against minority religions in France. Jim Bitterman reports from Paris.
JIM BITTERMAN: In many French churches this summer, at least some of the prayers being offered up are that legislators will do the right thing when they return to work in the fall, because they'll be asked to vote on a proposed law that, in varying degrees, raises fear among most all religions here. The law is meant to fight what the French call religious sects, dangerous or dishonest cult religions. And the country has had some bad experiences with the worst of them, including this, the most tragic, a series of murders and suicides in 1994 and '95 among members of a French, Swiss and Canadian religious group known as the Order of the Solar Temple, which left 69 people dead.
Yet even years before, the growth of less violent and no less threatening religious cults concerned many. Janine Tavernier became an activist in a family help organization after her husband, a navy officer, joined a cult centered around a charismatic leader and changed into a completely different person.
Ms. JANINE TAVERNIER (Union for the Defense of the Family): (Through Translator) For 26 years now, we've tried to understand what happens that brilliant, intelligent people can become totally depersonalized and destabilized, and we've discovered that in these sects, there's a manipulation to destroy the personality of the person, to take away his liberty.
BITTERMAN: At the French Parliament this spring, groups such as Madam Tavernier's helped push forward a law which bans what is called mental manipulation. On a day when barely two dozen of the parliamentarians were present, it passed without opposition.
One of the problems with the proposed law is coming up with a valid definition for mental manipulation. Churches of every faith are fearful it could be misused to discriminate against any denomination.
Jehovah's Witnesses in France, who spent years fighting and sometimes winning battles with French tax authorities over their status as a religious organization, now worry that the new anti-sect law will be directed at them.
Mr. JEAN MARIE BOCKAERT (Jehovah's Witnesses): ...appearance, the very fact of being Christian makes you practice mental manipulation, if they call it so, because Jesus said in Matthew 28, I think, 'Make disciples and teach them in Jesus' teachings.' Well, if you preach, if you make disciples, you manipulate them.
BITTERMAN: Bockaert and other Jehovah's Witnesses point to another provision of the proposed law which their opponents could use to devastating effect: the dissolution of any organization convicted of two or more crimes.
Mr. BOCKAERT: You can imagine that these adversaries, our opponents, could very well try to create court cases against us, and after two condemnations, that would be of course, injust --unjust, but that's enough, you know, for them to ...then we could be liable to being banned.
BITTERMAN: But it's not just the Jehovah's Witnesses who are worried. Catholics, Jews and representatives of most every major religion in France have expressed concerns about the law. In a nation which, over the centuries, has had a somewhat uneven and sometimes tragic record on religious tolerance, even established religions are concerned measures to restrain religious cults could someday be redirected at them.
Mr. JEAN ARNOLD DE CLERMONT (Protestant Federation): What is the difference between a sect and an old religious movement, an old church? We have all, as churches, been considered one day as a sect, different from the others. All of us could be one day under the pressure of such a law.
BITTERMAN: The proposed law is of such concern that the U.S. State Department told members of Congress it has taken the highly unusual diplomatic step of dispatching envoys to speak with French members of Parliament about the law and the threat it could propose to religious liberty.
Mr. ROBERT SEIPLE (Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom): Our goal is to develop a common understanding with the French government on what actions are and are not in accord with international agreements on religious freedom.
BITTERMAN: One of the authors of the legislation said she was shocked by the American intervention.
Ms. CATHERINE PICARD (French Legislator): (Through Translater) In France, the state does not get involved in religious questions. Each person is free to believe and practice as they wish, as long as they do not consider themselves above the law and as long as they maintain respect for the regulations of the republic.
BITTERMAN: Opponents to Picard's law remain skeptical and say that French authorities have plenty of legal tools to combat cults without creating a new and potentially dangerous one.
While the legislation has passed the French Parliament, it still has a long and complicated political road to travel before it actually becomes law. Church groups are hopeful that they'll have a chance to present their arguments against it to the government and perhaps change it.
And they still have some time left, since the law must go back and forth between the Senate and Parliament before it goes to the French government for approval. Said one Protestant leader, 'Religious freedom has a price. We want to be free to make choices, but that means others must be free also to make their choices, even if we might consider them bad ones.' In Paris, this is Jim Bitterman for RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY.
BOB ABERNETHY: With the end of the Camp David peace talks, religious groups are among those urging that negotiations continue, especially on the thorny issue of Jerusalem. American Jewish groups applauded Israeli Prime Minister Barak's efforts, particularly his reported offer to give the Palestinians some administrative autonomy in Jerusalem's Old City, but American Muslims, who had sponsored a rally near Camp David, reiterated their position that Israel does not have the authority to assign rights in Jerusalem. Church leaders, meanwhile, urged that Christian concerns not be overlooked in ongoing discussions.
BOB ABERNETHY: And now part two of our look at the frustrations and fears of Kosovo one year after the NATO bombing ended. This week, 40 leaders of Kosovo agreed to back free elections, the right of refugees to return and a campaign against violence. But all those signing the declaration also acknowledged that what really matters is converting what they call their bold words into realities on the ground where so many ordinary Kosovars can neither forget nor forgive each others' atrocities. Again, our reporter is Steven Erlanger of The New York Times.
STEVEN ERLANGER: What happened to you here?
Unidentified Man #1: They lined up eight people to kill us all in front of our families.
ERLANGER: Almost every ethnic Albanian in Kosovo has a personal reason to fear the Serbs. This boy is 17.
Unidentified Man #2: They load the guns and they shoot at us. They attacked us with knives, we are alive to shoot again. I have the sign of a knife here.
ERLANGER: But you didn't move?
Unidentified Man #2: No.
ERLANGER: This boy survived, but thousands of dwellings and many religious buildings did not.
This is main mosque of Pec or Peja as the Albanians call it. It was torched by the Serbs during the NATO bombing, one of the many hundreds of mosques damaged in the war, but this wasn't really a war about religion. It was a war of two tribes fighting over the same land for centuries. The tribes have symbols and beliefs, and one way to destroy another tribe is to smash its most precious symbols, its ancient churches or, in this case, its ancient mosques.
Serb forces and paramilitaries often targeted the mosques. When the Albanians returned to their devastated villages last June, they retaliated. Serb homes and churches came under organized attack. If religious symbols were made magnets for hatred, requiring armies for protection, can dialogue between the religions here lead to reconciliation?
Efforts in this direction began last winter in Amman, Jordan, at the assembly of the World Council on Religion and Peace. Kosovo's religious leaders, Orthodox, Catholic and Muslim, talked together, some for the very first time. With the help of religious leaders leaders from nearby Bosnia, those talks actually led to the formation of an interreligious council for Kosovo. In a joint declaration last April, the leaders condemned acts of revenge, endorsed the return of refugees and called for an end to ethnic violence. Many fine words, but so far, modest results.
Monsignor MARKO SOPI (Bishop of Prizren): (Through Translator) In general when we meet, we have really good words, but those words are not masked with achievement. Much more could be done.
ERLANGER: One problem is the anti-religious legacy of communism. Overwhelmingly Muslim by tradition, in fact, most Kosovars are nevertheless indifferent to religion, especially the young. Islamic leaders concede that their appeals for tolerance do not reach young people because they rarely come to the mosques.
Father SAVA JANJIC (Serbian Church Spokesman in Kosovo): I think I would agree Albanian society is generally more secular. And the Serbian society is also very secular, but we have a mixture of religion and national feeling which somehow gives the impression that many people are religious. Much more people would come to light the candles than they would come to mosque, you know, but they come to light the candles, not always to pray.
ERLANGER: One faith drawing packed houses, including young people, is the Roman Catholic Church. It is the spiritual home to perhaps 10 percent of the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. Bishop Marko Sopi rejects an open, political role for himself or his church, but on a recent Sunday, his sermon was a faith-based appeal for tolerance of others, obviously meaning the Serbs and the Gypsies.
Msgr. SOPI: (Through Translator) We should act by bringing peace, by bringing calmness, by trying to show understanding among people, not looking into who they are but looking at them as human beings, as being our brothers, our sisters. God made us all and we are a big family. This is what our religion is all about.
ERLANGER: The bishop also told parishioners to register for the fall elections. Sponsored by the West, the elections offer the beginning of local democracy and perhaps a sense of responsibility for the Albanian majority. But Sopi believes religious leaders can achieve little in promoting reconciliation until politicians establish civil order and justice.
Msgr. SOPI: Peace be with you.
ERLANGER: His colleagues agree.
Mr. ARTEMIJE RADOSAVLJEVIC (Serbian Orthodox Bishop): The council can have an important role, and I believe it will have an important role in the future, but only after the killing is stopped.
ERLANGER: For most Albanians, the key concern is Kosovo's eventual status. Will it become independent as they wish, or will the Serbs somehow return to power here?
Mr. MUFTI REXHEP BOJA (Kosovo Islamic Community): The situation will change as soon as the Albanians have an idea about their political status. That effects the return of the Serbs. Albanians are reluctant to see Serbs return because they fear the return of the police and the army and the Serbian system, and they fear the criminals will come back.
Children: (Singing in foreign language) Mobile phone! I want a mobile phone like Daddy!
ERLANGER: Bishop Sopi suggests economic progress is the fast track to coexistence wherever Kosovo's political status. Kosovars in the cities are experiencing some prosperity and some of the pleasures of peace. But the prosperity is limited to Albanians and rarely extends to the villages. Bishop Sopi wants a Marshall Plan for the Balkans.
Msgr. SOPI: If people have jobs instead of wandering the streets, they will have income. They will be too tired to wander around. They will rest up and think about improving their standard of living and then it will be easier to overcome the past.
ERLANGER: Many hard choices face the UN and the people here, but as Kosovo rebuilds, there may also be an emerging sense of a new Kosovar identity.
Mr. VETON SURROI (Newspaper Publisher): I wish I could see the day when we could organize excursions to see the monastery in ...and one could see religion from the aspect of culture, not from the aspect of depression. When I told Bishop Bartimaeus some years ago that those churches were mine, he immediately stood up and said, 'What do you mean, mine? You know who built them.' I said, 'Well, you know, I don't care who built them. They are mine in the cultural sense. I'm a Kosovar citizen and that is my sure patrimony as is my mosque, as is my Catholic Church, as is my Orthodox Church. And if you want to be a Kosovar, you have to treat all of those as yours and mine at the same time.'
Fr. JANJIC: The people must understand no matter who came here first, land belongs to those who are living here now. And it belongs to everyone who wants to live here freely as a free citizen. Kosovo should not be given either to Serbs or Albanians. We don't either greater Albania or greater Serbia. I'd rather love to see borders very transparent, unimportant. That's what I think is just, but what will happen, of course, depends not only from God but from the people.
ERLANGER: A splendid vision, but one we are unlikely to see very soon.
Do you think it's too early for tolerance here?
Mr. BERNARD KOUCHNER (UN Administration in Kosovo): Yes. Unfortunately, yes.
ERLANGER: Why do you think so?
Mr. KOUCHNER: Because I know all over the world it has taken time. Here, it will take time. One year is not enough after centuries of confrontation, but I'm optimistic. But it will take a generation.
ERLANGER: And international support and more bravery for leaders here, both political and religious. Albanians remain angry and many of them vengeful, and many Serbs are still in denial about the crimes committed in their name and sometimes by their neighbors. Leaders here all say they want a democratic Kosovo that respects and protects minorities, but they have yet to find the method and the courage to bring that message to the wounded and fearful people they want to serve. This is Steven Erlanger in Kosovo.
BOB ABERNETHY: In other news, an Islamic foundation in suburban Chicago has alleged anti-Muslim bias over its proposal to buy a church that's up for sale and convert it into a mosque. Some residents of the largely Christian community of Palos Heights objected to the Muslim proposal suggesting that the church should be turned into a recreation center instead. The City Council voted to pay the Muslim group $200,000 not to buy the church. Now the mayor has vetoed that idea. The Muslim foundation is still considering what to do.
BOB ABERNETHY: And finally, General Mills is having second thoughts about using the Bible as a new promotional gimmick. The company put a free CD-ROM in boxes of cereal now headed to grocery stores. The disc contains computer games and a reference library with several books including the New International Version of the Bible, a translation that's popular with evangelical Christians. That provoked controversy among some non-Christian groups, so General Mills has now issued a public apology and admitted a lapse, saying its corporate policy is not to advance any particular set of religious beliefs.
BOB ABERNETHY: That's our program for now. I'm Bob Abernethy. As we leave you, music from Albanian Catholics in the Kosovo village of Ferizaj.
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