The EU has raised some very important points with Turkey, and Turkey has had to measure up. It has questioned its human rights record in the past, it's questioned treatment of Kurds in the past, a number of things, and also being concerned about some economic issues, etc. But what has been interesting is that the EU often fulfills the belief of many, not only in Turkey and not only in the Muslim world but also outside, that many in the European Union don't feel that they are ready to acknowledge a Muslim country within Europe.
This is ironic, because it's not simply a question of whether Pope Benedict raises the question because he sees Europe as Christian when, in fact, so much of Europe is post-Christian. The churches are emptying out in terms of England, in terms of Germany itself, etc. But I think that you also have people who would not be seen as religious forces or religiously minded in the EU also having a problem, and they would have a problem -- they will define it culturally, but a lot of the problem has to do with the issue with immigration. There's a concern, for example, you have a large number of Muslims in Europe. Within a 30- or 40-year period, Islam has gone from being relatively invisible in Europe and America to basically being the second or third largest religion. So a) that's an issue [and] b) in many European countries in addition to religion falling off you have a growing anti-immigrant attitude by the right. Now it's towards all immigrants, but in a number of these countries a large concentration of the immigrants are Muslim, so you've got a double "problem." They are immigrants, foreigners, but they are also representing a different faith, and that seems to, at times, affect if not poison the relationship. Therefore, even when you have leaders, such as the leaders a year or two ago, of Germany and France who would say that they would support Turkey's membership, they then say but of course they would give it ultimately to a referendum of their people, and they know from polls that majorities have indicated that they would vote against Turkey being admitted to the EU, and it's clear that it's along cultural and religious lines.

Q: To what extent is Turkey a model for other Muslim nations? Is it a model in how it tries to work out religion and state questions?

A: I think Turkey's an interesting place to look at, but I think we've had a problem for more than a decade where, at one point in Washington, it was almost part of American policy to say they wanted to promote the Turkish model. What they meant was they wanted to promote secularism throughout the Muslim world, without even realizing that Turkey secularism, as I said before, is not an American notion of secularism. The signal that they'd be sending to a lot of societies is that secularism is anti-religious. I think that Turkey's an interesting place to watch in terms of the lessons that you can learn. For example, if you look at Turkey you see how those who started an Islamist party -- that many of them as a result of their political experience, as a result of just their maturation, as with other folks who are politicians and [who] change opinions as they grow, more and more have dealt with the realities of Turkey and realize that they need to define a political party. If you're going to have a political future and help your country, it's got to be one that is fully representational, and so you see people who had been part of Islamist parties now part of a much broader party that looks more like, let's say, the Christian Democrats in Europe. Even though the prime minister would not even want to say that they're Muslim Democrats, he would just simply want to say, you know, we are a Conservative Democratic party and we are aware of our Muslim culture. Turkey shows this change that can take place. It also shows, though, that there will be tensions within society, that many societies are dominated by elites, and when you wind up with alternative elites, whether they are religiously minded or not -- in this case they're religiously minded -- that represents a challenge. Turkey's also interesting to see the playing out on the movement of issues like human rights and issues of pluralism. But I think every Muslim country is going to have to deal with defining its reality in terms of the demographic realities of that country. So, yes, one can learn something from the Turkish experience, but one wouldn't necessarily say that there's going to be an absolute emulation of the Turkish experience.

Q: I'm curious to hear your perspective on how much damage was done across the Muslim world by Pope Benedict's speech at Regensburg.

A: I think that significant damage was done, and I think that one of the things one wants to look at is you always want to look at the context in terms of, you know, why people react the way they react. Context becomes important. Americans will react one way in a certain situation than, let's say, people in Bangladesh, and people bring to bear their culture, their sense of history, etc. So, for example, in a new Gallup world poll, that poll which looks at a billion Muslims from North Africa to Southeast Asia, when Muslims are asked in an open-ended question what do you resent most about the West, the majorities of Muslims bring up the fact that they resent the fact that Islam is denigrated in the West, that it's equated with terrorism, that Muslims are looked down upon. Now within that context one can understand the reaction to the Danish cartoons, but also one can understand the reaction to the pope. It's important to remember that in Muslim countries the pope is not only a symbol of Catholicism. In many ways they don't distinguish between Catholics and Protestants. He's Christianity. Just as for many people in our country, they just think Muslim; they don't distinguish between Sunni, Shia, Israeli. So when the pope speaks, from their point of view he is this very prominent, authoritative religious leader, and given the fact that the pope cited a text that was very critical of the Prophet, even though he didn't say it was his words, the fact that he cited it -- that's an issue. And also the fact that when he made a statement about the Qur'an and the Qur'an's attitude with regard to, in effect, freedom of religion, that he got it wrong in terms of some of the comments that he made. They were simply textually and historically wrong. That has a tremendous repercussion, because it's occurring at a time when many Muslims in the world feel under siege. Many see the war on global terrorism as a war against Islam, as an attempt to impose or redraw the map of the region. Many see Islam as denigrated, and they see it as denigrated in Europe and in America. They see the issue of civil liberties, they see the cartoon controversy. So when the pope made his statement, even though it was made somewhat privately and innocently, with globalization and communications it shot across the Muslim world and that damage was there. That was exacerbated by the fact that there was no direct apology -- that, in effect, what has been consistently said by the Vatican is, you know, we are sorry that we caused pain; that wasn't the intention. But there was no apology that in any way said that somehow we got it wrong, and I think that's a major issue. I think there is some significance to the visit of the pope to Turkey and how that visit goes. Is it simply going to be seen, as I'm told in Turkey, as primarily a visit between heads of state? Between the Vatican, etc? Or, as the Vatican puts it, that it's primarily a visit between the pope and Patriarch Bartholomeos. If that's all that happens it will, I think, have a negative impact in Turkey and in the Muslim world. On the other hand, the visit of the pope can be taken as a time to seize the day and to reaffirm commitment to interreligious dialogue and to demonstrate in a variety of ways an awareness of the importance in Muslim-Christian relations and an awareness of Christian-Muslim relations in Turkey itself.

Q: Do you think that church leaders, the Vatican, and the pope himself have an accurate enough understanding of the amount of damage that was done and the amount of effort it will take to repair it?

A: It's hard for me to know where the Vatican is at this point, because I'm not directly linked into the Vatican. But I can say that the early reactions would have indicated that, no, that awareness is not there, hasn't been there, and the continued response -- I think it's terrific that the church has reached out but, for example, when the Holy Father called in a delegation of Muslims, he called in ambassadors when in fact the more effective [thing] would have been to call in religious leaders and to sit and talk with them about the issue: for him to say what he was trying to say and what he meant, and for them to tell him why it was offensive, etc., to have that dialogue. Now Muslim leaders have called for that dialogue. The pope has talked about the fact that he's committed to interreligious dialogue, and I think that's what we need to see. There need to be more instances of that. John Paul II had a terrific ability at that human level to know how to have those interactions. I think that's important, and I think that, again, in an age of global information and communications, many people are aware of the fact that some of the people around the pope are more hardliners on Muslim-Christian relations. Indeed, in the late days of John Paul II, in some of the publications in the Vatican and even in the early days of this papacy, some of the Vatican publications and certain senior clergy have made statements that would be regarded as rather hard-line and retreating from the progress that the Vatican made over decades in relations between the Muslim world and Catholics and certainly the progress that was made, considerable progress, in the United States.

Q: As someone who has devoted so much of his time to these issues, do you see this as an opportunity right now for more Muslim-Christian dialogue, or do you think those relations are at risk at the moment?

A: I think this is an opportunity precisely because it's risky moment. You know, when you have the risky moments, that is when you can also have the greatest opportunities, because when people see it as risky, when some people feel rejected, others frightened, others feel challenged, if positive moves are made that can actually reassure people and one can really move forward. But this is a very sensitive and risky time, and I think that the better Muslim leaders have realized that and tried to reach out to the pope as opposed to some who have made more [confrontational] statements. I think the same thing has to be seen in an even greater way on the part of the Catholic Church and the part of the pope. When somebody like the pope reaches out -- we saw it with John Paul. When John Paul reached out to other faiths, not just Islam, they notice it. This is extraordinarily important in reality, but even more important symbolically. I think the pope has that ability and the Vatican has that ability. Whether they're wise to the challenge I think is still an open question. The pressure is also on, if you will, the Muslim community and Muslim leaders to rise to that occasion. There was a statement made by 38 major religious leaders that attempted to address this. On the one hand, they reached out, embraced more dialogue. On the other hand, [they] indicated some of the issues that they saw.