Read more of Kim Lawton's interview with Bishop Harry Jackson, senior pastor at Hope Christian Church in Beltsville, Maryland, and the co-author of PERSONAL FAITH, PUBLIC POLICY:

Q: It's been 40 years since Dr. King was killed. How do you see his legacy?

A: Well, I think his legacy is really powerful in the sense that it has become everybody's dream. You hear every segment of our society quote the dream. People are using it for television commercials and everything else. So I think the idea that America is supposed to be multiracial, multicultural, and that we are supposed to embrace other people's ethnicity has really gotten into our hearts. So in that way King's vision and his dream [have] been wildly successful, but it's still yet to be realized, in my view.

Q: What parts are yet to be fulfilled?

A: Well, if you would look at a new book that we have put out, Tony Perkins and I, who is a white leader of a major evangelical organization that is involved in public policy, myself a leader of a black-oriented advocacy group as well as a local church, we've come together and put together a book entitled "Personal Faith, Public Policy," and one of the things that we deal with is the fact that blacks in America still have not made the economic progress that they should make. The unemployment rate among blacks is typically twice that of the broader community. Also, we find that a young baby who is born in the African-American home today is likely to live about seven years less than a white baby, and there are a lot of statistics around those kinds of things that we say health, finances, education, opportunity still lag, but it's not as bad as it was during the days of King.

Q: To what extent do you see the issues you've been involved in and spoken out about as a direct outgrowth of what Dr. King did?

A: Well, I think that the chance to speak, the opportunity we've been given to talk is a direct outgrowth. Remember that King wrote a letter from the Birmingham jail -- many folks have seen that letter -- and he was responding to a bunch of clergymen who were saying hey, it's not time for you to talk about that right now, you need to be quiet, there will come a time, we'll get back to you, we'll send you the memo. And the fact that we can come to the table, people like myself, and bring up issues such as social justice, poverty, we can even talk directly about racism without there being some contention, I think, is a major step forward. And each time I talk behind the scenes with some of my fellow evangelical leaders especially, I get the response from them that they want to work on these problems, and I'm vey encouraged by that.

Q: You've also been talking about a lot of issues that weren't hot-button issues in Dr. King's day, or at least weren't things he talked about, like abortion and gay marriage -- what some people would consider more conservative social issues. Do you see that advocacy also coming out of what he did?

A: I do. I believe that what he modeled for the whole church is a way of being involved and engaged in a nonviolent manner, and his model of civic involvement is really the thing that everybody, I don't care what group it is, who has a moral conscience-oriented message is kind of following in his footsteps, and we're no exception. So yes, I think that's part of the fruit, but I think the issue of life that we deal with is a way to bring together the black-led church and the white-led church. I often say that the white-led church in America has been oriented toward righteousness or what I'll call personal holiness, such as they're against gambling, same-sex marriage, they're against things like abortions, etc. But the black-led church, coming from King's background or his legacy, often has been tremendously mobilized around the issue of social justice. And so what we're saying is that these two things are being married together, righteousness and justice, and that black and white Christians for the first time these last 5 or 6 years now are starting to really stand together, saying we need to change the complexion of America. And that's one of the things the latest book that I've written is hoping to see promoted and enhanced, that there will be this broader coalition that holds on to these conservative concepts, but broadens it as well. And I think that's a new thing, that's an important new thing that's happening in the church.

Q: How important is it that these kinds of movements begin in the church?

A: Well, I think it's of utmost importance, because I do see it as a spiritual movement. You may recall I've done a lot of research around King, that right after he became the president of the Montgomery Improvement Association his house was firebombed about 30 days later. At that pivotal point, he could've become mean-spirited or encouraged his people to respond violently. In fact, they gathered outside of his house, many of these guys who came there were blacks who had served in the military, they were armed, and he said no, no, no, we're not going to respond in violence, we're going to respond in a biblical fashion. So at the very heart there was a spiritual dynamic, and I think that was its strength, that's what congealed the movement. And then the second mantle -- I like to think of them as mantles, from a biblical picture point of view -- the second mantle was community activism, the third mantle was the whole national political scene. And so I think King's mantle of that moral activism has not been passed on as clearly as it could have been. We're trying to restore that. I think Jesse Jackson and others have done a great job in the early days in community activism, but I think that, as time went on, they failed to rekindle that sense of spirituality that was at the heart of the movement. Even though we've got reverends who are civil rights activists, sometimes there is not that sense of this is about advancing a moral agenda. It gets lost, and the politics and the money and all of that that is intertwined with this [are] often lifted up.

Q: To what extent have things changed now -- the issues and the context? How do you take what King did and apply it to a very different world?

A: Well, let's think about the foundation. Religious liberty is one of the major battles for evangelicals today. If there had not been a free church to speak out courageously during the time of King, we wouldn't have had his legacy. So that's a battle -- whether we can put up the Ten Commandment, whether we can talk about Jesus out in public, whether a Nativity scene is allowed or allowable. That is a major issue. There were legislation attempts in the last several years to enforce things like hate crimes, and it's a little controversial, but one of the aspects of this hate crime legislation could have muzzled the church. I'm all for the civil rights of gay people or any people. But I'm not for any legislation that could demonize, on the other hand, preachers who preach biblical morality. So somewhere in the next few years I think we're going to have some major battles concerning the freedom of the church to speak based on its convictions, even if others disagree with it. So that goes back to King. I think the issue of social justice still is an issue, the fact that we've got people who are racially profiled -- it's still a major problem. Disproportionate and, I would say, kind of unevenly-handed justice meted out. I believe the problem that we face with justice in America is still a civil rights issue, if you will, and that is that blacks still are sentenced to heavier time in prison, if they go there, than whites, that there is a problem of racial profiling, many other issues along that nature, along that line, that need to be dealt with. And those are some of the things that we've got to address. So King began a good work, but it hasn't been fully manifest.

Q: I read something you wrote where you said you thought King would likely be a social conservative today, and that generated a lot of debate. What did you mean by that?

A: What I meant by that is the foundation of King's work really was biblical. And there's been a great affinity with social conservatives with the Bible, values, etc. In fact, the evangelical Christian movement is really a social conservative wing of the GOP in some ways. What I don't believe is that -- it's hard to say this but I'll just say this on the air with you -- I don't believe that he would necessarily be a Republican or that in the days ahead all evangelicals will be Republicans. I believe that conservative values are most consistent with the kind of platform the Republican Party has put forth thus far. But we're in a little bit of a struggle, because many of us feel that we have been treated by the Republicans like the blacks were treated by the Democratic Party, that is, promised to and then taken for granted. So I believe King would be a social conservative, but I'm not so sure that he'd let himself be owned by any party. And that's where some of the controversy came in, and I actually had a discussion with a bunch of leaders where we interacted with Karl Rove right before the 2006 marriage amendment vote, and Rove was saying to us, hey, I don't believe that you guys really won the election for us, you were one of many things that happened, and predominantly white folks in the room -- I spoke up at that point and said, hey, I don't like the way you're talking to us, it sounds like you're going to take us for granted, like the Democrats have taken the black voters. So in this day I believe we're going to have a re-engagement of people of faith, and we're going to try and get both sides to look at our issues. One of the great problems in my view with one of the moral issues that we hold dear is that they've been over-politicized, meaning that when you go to a Democratic candiMarch 28, 2008 and you say, hey, you should limit abortions, he says oh, that's Republican issues, you're going to get me in trouble, and what has been really a moral issue, such as making sure that people have options instead of aborting their babies, has become a political issue. And I think that would grieve the heart of King, that something that was right for right's sake gets played out on a partisan politics playing field, if that makes sense to you.

Q: Some of the other people I've interviewed told me they are concerned Dr. King has in some ways been domesticated the further we get from him, so the radical side of him has been blunted into something that makes us all feel warm and fuzzy. But there was a real radical edge to him. Do you share that concern?

A: I don't share that concern, because at the root of it the radical side of him was the Christ-like side, and that is the side of the suffering servant who would risk his own life for the advancement of an agenda. And so sometimes we mix our metaphors and our concepts. Either he was a man of love who challenged the culture through his prophetic bearing and statements, or he was just a subdued violent radical activist. Which one was he? I believe he was that guy who represented the Christ-like figure in his generation and that therefore he has not been domesticated, but actually he's been engrafted into the culture. Now, the folks who've been domesticated are the preachers like myself who don't have the courage to call people back to biblical accountability. And so when I go into predominantly white settings and preach, I've got to be as bold as King was and just speak to truth and love and to say hey, we've got to come together and solve these problems. When I'm in black settings I've got to be bold enough to say hey guys, there are things you need to do to solve these problems. You can't talk about these other people as though they're racist and not acknowledge your own issues of race. And I think that's more of a Christ-like concept. What I hear in the words that "he's been domesticated" is a little hangover of the anger of the '60s untempered by the cross. And what I loved about the civil rights movement at its peak was that those folks were able to practice, to prepare. Then they actually let the dogs be sent on them and the water hoses, and they believed that it would be an affront for them to respond in the flesh. That was a very, very spiritual thing. So, therefore, I think our lack now in terms of black leadership, especially in our generation, is that we don't have people as committed to a Christ-like stance, and therefore the power of their words has no conviction. They sound like some of the guys we hear on the news these days talking about black issues. They just sound like they're, you know, they're just harping on the same old problems. There's not that weight of spiritual conviction, and I think that comes out of the lifestyle first, and then the Word second.

Q: I'm wondering about the diversity of opinion coming from African-American leaders on some subjects. Is that in some way a positive thing, a demonstration that not everybody thinks the same way?

A: I think you're hitting on something that's very, very powerful, and that is that the African-American community is growing. It's no longer as monolithic as it once was. You have a huge black middle class. Pew Research has said that now black Americans self-identify as being one of two different black Americas. The one black America is the thug-rap kind of group that thinks that studying in school is somehow white. The other group is this upwardly mobile kind of group of people who identify much more with the white community and their values. Therefore, I believe you can't just have one spokesperson for black America any longer. I believe that there is a need for many, many voices. But on the flip side of that, political power goes to voting blocs who can respond and react together. My take on it is that I want that voting bloc to be Christians who hold some of the values that King did, who may be white and Hispanic, and not just blacks. I want King's dream to broaden that way so that we fight racism against Hispanics, and we fight sexism, and we even fight classism, and I would, for one, despite my being against same-sex marriage, I am all for making sure that gays have rights of every human being. There is an issue of human dignity that is biblical. So we've got to sort out all that stuff and get on to one page with this agenda that is broader than race. So I think it's a good thing, the discussion that's happening, but at this particular point so many of us are vying for our turf. Not too long ago, about a year and a half ago, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and Cornel West came out with a press release in which they say that black megachurch pastors, pastors of churches with 2000 people or more, are actually not teaching the Gospel, and they've diverted and gone into a prosperity message. And I believe that was an attempt, a power play by those civil rights leaders to say you've got to come back to our side, come back to our message, when they really didn't realize that God may be purposely diffusing this message so there will be a broader coalition that can be activated instead of the narrow, because blacks are only 13 percent of the population at this particular point, but if blacks and Hispanics are working together, and people of faith from the evangelical community, you now have a huge, huge voting bloc.

Q: What was the influence Dr. King's ministry had for you personally in developing and shaping your ministry?

A: Well, I think his ministry has had an amazing effect on all of us who are born in and about that time, or later, that King was first beginning his work. For me it means that I got an opportunity to go to Harvard for graduate school. My youngest daughter is now also in a graduate program at Harvard. The kinds of opportunities it opened, and the grants, the fellowships, all those kinds of things would have been unheard of for people in my family before the day of King. The fact that we have a black person, Barack Obama, running for the office of president is a great, great thing. I'm not going to say on this broadcast whether I'm for him or against him, but my point would be the fact that he could be seriously considered means America has come a long way, and that there will be opportunities that my daughters will have that previous generations never had because of the seminal work of Dr. King. But I do believe that, most importantly, King in his public persona, in his civil rights ministry, if you would, in what some would call his prophetic role to the culture, epitomized a Christian answer to civic involvement. And I'm encouraged by that, and that's the model, in some ways, that we've used for all the work we've done in the last few years in the public square. So it's been a big impact to me personally.

Q: How does the spiritual component in that work for you, and how do you keep that on fire?

A: The spiritual dimension of the civil rights movement was critical. A couple years ago, in 2004, right before we began as a church and myself as a minister to speak out nationally on many issues, I took a visit down to Montgomery, Alabama. I went to the Rosa Parks museum, which is right across the street from the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery. And I remember kneeling down in front of the museum and praying with a handful of friends, and then, I'll just say this, I wound up just laying down on my face in front of that museum and praying. And as I prayed, I asked God that that spiritual relationship and mantle of King would rest on many different people in our generation. Not just blacks, but people who had that heart for justice, for racial reconciliation, who would be motivated by the love of God and by the power of God. And so for me it's always been about the spiritual. After that event, that prayer, what happened in our lives was that God took a book that I'd written called "High Impact African American Churches," and he allowed that book to get me on all the top television talk shows of our day. I think about 30 days after this prayer I was on 56 radio, television, and newspaper interviews. In the space of about 30 days I was on all those major talk shows nationwide, and for me subjectively I would say this: That prayer out in front of the Rosa Parks museum is what opened up the doors for me to be able to speak in so many areas. And every time I talk, absolutely every time, whether it's reported or not, I bring out this idea of righteousness and justice. I talk about the fact that both of these things represent God's whole heart for the church and for the world, not just keeping the rules, but also that the least of these, the poor, the weak, they will be touched by the power of the Gospel. So I believe that's at the very root of what King's legacy is. I keep it alive through prayer, and I keep reminding myself that God's giving me an opportunity where others may not have an opportunity to speak, because he wants someone to speak for his agenda, not just for black people or not just for poor people, but for God's agenda in our generation. I believe that spirituality was at the heart of who King was, and for me, that legacy is really, really critical. You know, I keep it alive by every time I sit down with someone who is interviewing me, I remember that what I have to say is not as important as God's agenda, and I believe God's agenda has to do with righteousness and justice and is not just about black rights or the rights of the poor, but it's about how God views those people and his program for them, if you will. And so I very much see myself as a messenger, and so I pray that way. I ask God to help me remember to say those things, and I've got a theme verse that I always use. It's Psalm 89:13, which says "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne," God's throne. And I look at that and say okay, Lord, you want to bring forth a testimony about the power of your Gospel and that this thing that we're talking about, about biblical justice, about social justice, is not just black people getting their share but an expression of God's heart to a generation. That's kind of what keeps me motivated, and I believe it's a worthy call and one worth investing my life in.