YOUNG: Well, supporters of those things told us behavior would change and indeed it did, but it got worse. I don't think we ... some of us expected that. I don't think everyone expected that. But it does seem to have gotten worse.

ABERNETHY: Why is the Chinese government so afraid of religious groups?

YOUNG: Well, I think there's certainly historical reasons. They've had long tense relations with them. But in addition, I think that it's a bankrupt ideology and they worry about religion as being a competing ideology that has some real force, and therefore particularly threatening to the government.

ABERNETHY: President Bush is on his way there. What are the most important things that he can do to advance human rights generally and religious rights in particular, while he's there?

YOUNG: Well, I think in public he should speak out, and speak out forcefully, on why we think human rights are important for the Chinese as well as for people all over the world. That we're not singling the Chinese out but we think it's important for all people. In private, I think he needs to lay down some markers with the Chinese. That all our points of interaction with them are going to be affected by their behavior on human rights -- on economic security and the whole broad range of cultural exchanges will all be affected, depending on their human rights behavior.

ABERNETHY: And do you think that kind of thing can make a difference?

YOUNG: I think it can. I think in the first place, economically at least the Chinese need us much more than we need them, and secondly, I think the Chinese are very concerned about their international reputation.

ABERNETHY: Many thanks to Michael Young, Chair of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom and Dean of the George Washington University Law School.