Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly . INTERVIEW . Diane Knippers . May 9, 2003

Read more of Bob Abernethy's May 7, 2003 interview about Christian-Muslim dialogue with Diane Knippers, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy:

Q: What is the Institute on Religion and Democracy? Can you spell out what it does?
Photo of Diane Knippers

A: We work for the renewal or reform of the U.S. churches' social and political witness, and so that means we tackle a lot of political and social issues -- everything from human sexuality to international religious persecution. And we try to influence what the U.S. churches -- mostly the mainline Protestant churches -- say about those issues.

Q: Would you summarize the most important points of the guidelines on Christian-Muslim dialogue that came out this week?
A: There are several important points that we want to make in these guidelines. We want to encourage Christian-Muslim dialogue and discussion. We think it's important that the Christian side be represented by people who are deeply rooted in the Christian tradition, who can accurately represent Christian faith and beliefs. We think it's important to share Jesus Christ, because Christians have a duty to do that. We want to look for points that we have in common with Islam, but we also want to deal honestly with deep disagreements -- theological disagreements, political disagreements. And, finally, we think it's very important to put human rights on the table and to discuss with Muslims human rights around the world.

Q: Why did you feel the need to do this at this time? What's been the problem with Christian-Muslim dialogue?
A: Well, we think that there are problems on two ends. Among more liberal Christians, there's an oversimplification of Islam that tends to be very optimistic. They talk about Islam as a religion of peace. They want to really deny human rights abuses that exist in Muslim countries. They want to deny deep theological differences between Islam and Christianity.

On the other hand, there's an oversimplification among conservatives, or the religious right, that is very negative toward Islam -- that sweepingly dismisses Islam as evil or wicked, or that engages in gratuitous insults against Islam.

Both of those types of oversimplification thwart genuine education, thwart genuine dialogue and understanding, and undermine Christian witness and mission.

Q: According to the guidelines, there couldn't be common worship between Muslims and Christians.
A: These are fundamentally very different faiths. Central to Christian worship is acknowledging Jesus Christ, the son of God, as God. We worship Jesus Christ. Muslims would find that blasphemous. It's really impossible to have completely authentic Christian worship or Muslim worship together.

The best that we could suggest is that when Christians attend a Muslim service, they may listen and observe in respectful silence. Vice versa, Muslims can come to Christian worship services. But we don't think we should try to worship together.

Q: To what extent was the meeting this week an effort by prominent evangelicals to say publicly to Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham and others who have been so outspoken in their criticism of Islam, "Cool it"?
A: That was an important part of the message we were trying to send. The National Association of Evangelicals is a broad, representative evangelical association. We recognize that when statements are made in public that can be so misunderstood, that are needlessly insulting to another faith, it not only is a very poor representation of Christianity but, in fact, Christians in other parts of the world can suffer because of those actions.

So, we want to say to our brothers and sisters in Christ, "That's inappropriate language. Please, stop using it. You're jeopardizing very important ministries and work."

Q: And what if they come back to you and say, "But it's true"?
A: It's simply not true in a blanket statement. When you say Islam is evil, if you say the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia is evil, fine. Use extraordinary language. It is evil and wicked. But you need to have more precision. When you say, "Islam is evil" in a sweeping way, people get the impression that you're saying every Muslim is an evil, no-good person; or, that there is no justification for tolerance of Islam. And that's not the message Christians should be sending.

Q: Once a Christian says, "Jesus Christ is the divine son of God," and a Muslim says, "No, Jesus Christ was a prophet," where do you go from there?
A: I think you can explore what those things mean. But in the end, if a Christian holds true to his or her faith in Jesus Christ and Muslims holds true to their views, that's why there cannot be common worship.

On the other hand, there could be things that we could look at in common. I'm interested in evangelicals exploring with their Muslim neighbors their common concern for the unborn, or their common concern for defending marriage in our society. We think that there are some issues where evangelicals and Muslims could work together. And, ultimately, I would hope that the experience that Muslims have in our society of religious freedom -- of the freedom to practice their faith -- would be an experience that they would share with their Muslim brothers and sisters around the world, [and] that we could raise the level of freedom throughout the world through these kinds of discussions.

Q: Should Christians try to convert Muslims, or is it enough to express your own faith in Christian teachings?
A: Christians who really understand the conversion process understand that all we can do is share the love of Jesus Christ and the message and hope of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's the Holy Spirit that does conversion. It's the act of a sovereign God. I think all we can do is, as winsomely as possible, share our faith in Jesus Christ and leave the rest up to God.

We also want to protect people's freedom to change their religion, recognizing that can go both ways.

Q: To what extent do you think that the views of the group that met this week represent Christianity in America?
A: I think that the group that met this week authentically represents a broad spectrum of evangelicals. There's no question in my mind that it was a representative group. We had Republicans and Democrats. We had a number of different perspectives there politically.

The group did not represent Catholics or mainline Protestants --

Q: -- or Southern Baptists.
A: I'm trying to remember if there were Southern Baptists there. I am confident that the views expressed today would have represented most Southern Baptists.

Q: Another issue is violence. What do you want the dialogue to say about that?
A: One of our speakers today made the point that the wind of freedom is traveling throughout the world; the idea that people can openly talk about their deepest faith, their deepest commitment without the threat of violence is the trend and the wave of the future.

We would hope that we could model that kind of respectful dialogue. We deplore violence. We deplore terrorism. We deplore it when Christians or Muslims who are minorities feel persecuted or threatened. And we hope, by encouraging this kind of conversation, that we can lower the level of violence.

Q: How do you think Christians should respond, for instance, to Muslim complaints about U.S. government support of Israel?
A: Christians will have different views on that. Some Christians are strongly supportive of Israel. Others strongly support a Palestinian state. We would just encourage people to talk honestly and freely about those and a variety of other issues. I don't think there's anything that we want to say is off the table. We really want to encourage honest discussion.

One of the things that I would want to talk about in a dialogue is my concern for Palestinian Christians who are threatened both by human rights abuses on the part of Israel, but [who] have faced severe threats by Muslim radicals among the Palestinians, as well.

Q: And what about U.S. popular culture?
A: That's an issue about which Christians and Muslims, I think, would have a lot in common. It bothers me when we are perceived as a Christian nation around the world, but most of what people know about our country is the popular culture we export. Well, that doesn't represent Christian values by any stretch of an imagination. I think it would be wonderful for Christians and Muslims to talk about that. Perhaps, parents could talk together about how they protect their children from the influences of television and the Internet.

Q: And the invasion of Iraq? How would you speak to a Muslim about that?
A: Well, I would want to hear what the Muslim had to say. There are many American Muslims, particularly those who came from Iraq, who celebrated the invasion and liberation of Iraq. There are others who are deeply concerned about it. So, I think I would want to hear what they have to say, and I would want to express my own view. While it included support for the U.S. military action, I'm very concerned about the future and about building a free society. One of the things I would want to talk about is, can we build a society in Iraq that genuinely respects the freedom for religious minorities, both Muslim minorities and other faiths?

Q: Is there a danger that dialogue that recognizes the serious differences between two groups could make relations worse, rather than better?
A: That's a very good question. Sometimes increased understanding doesn't lower disagreement. Sometimes increased understandings help people realize that they do have fundamental and deep disagreement. I just think that's a risk that we have to take. I am sure that non-communication and mutual ignorance are not the way for peace in the world. I'm more willing to take the risk that dialogue will produce some benefits.

Q: So, if Muslim-Christian dialogue could be conducted as your guidelines this week recommend, then what do you hope that would lead to? What would the result be?
A: I hope that it would lead to greater understanding. I hope that it would lead toward greater openness in Muslim societies, greater openness for respecting religious diversity. I would hope that it would lead to Muslims being more understanding and respectful of Christianity.

Q: And would you hope that many Muslims would become Christians?
A: I would be delighted if Muslims accepted Jesus Christ.

Q: You said that liberals often speak about Islam as a religion of peace, as if you thought it was not that. How do you think the question of violence within an extreme version of Islam should be characterized?
A: I think one of the problems is that Islam is a vast and complicated religion crossing many centuries. So, it's very hard to say, "Islam is" anything. There are many, many exceptions to just about anything you would say. You can't just say that Islam is a religion of peace. There are too many examples of religiously motivated violence within Islam, and particularly right now, what is very much on the minds of many Americans is the threat of Islamic terrorism -- radical forms of Islam.

I think we have to say that there are incidences of violence. There are certainly violent movements within Islam. We mustn't deny that these are people who believe that they are Muslims, who are motivated by their faith. I think that's a part of the total picture that we need to be honest about. We need to talk to Muslims about this. And we will find that there are many, many Muslims who share our concerns about those radical movements.

Q: Right now, as humanitarian organizations are trying to work in Iraq, the question of proselytizing or evangelizing comes up with respect to some of those groups. What would the guidelines be for them?
A: Speaking as an evangelical Christian, it's simply ineffective to go into another culture with very heavy-handed tactics to try to coerce people to accept another faith. It simply doesn't work. It's not right, and it's not appropriate.

The best strategies are to go and simply serve people in the name of Jesus Christ. One of the organizations represented [at the meeting] today, World Relief, which is associated with the National Association of Evangelicals -- their strategy is essentially to support local Christian churches. And in the case of Iraq, this will be an evangelical group that is predominantly supporting Roman Catholics to do Christian mission and relief and development service.

At the same time, I don't want to deny anyone's right to free speech and free association and religious freedom. I think we need to model respectful but open expressions of religion. That's what I would hope we will see. It's desperately important if we hope to protect the rights of the Christian minority in Iraq.

Q: What were the divides, or issues, or disagreements, if any, at the meeting this week?
A: There weren't very many large and vocal disagreements at this meeting, which surprised me a little bit. You get that many evangelicals in the room [and] you expect fireworks of some sort.

There were clearly people in the room, and two Arab Christians in particular who have lived in the United States for a long time, who wanted to more explicitly use dialogue as a Christian apologetic. They wanted to be able to defend Christianity and defend our views of the Bible and our views of Jesus Christ. They spelled that out quite clearly; whereas, others wanted to emphasize service to Muslims -- relief and development or service assistance here, helping refugees and that sort of thing. There were differences of emphasis in that regard.

There were some political differences, as well. Some people were arguing that we needed to continue to allow high numbers of refugees from predominantly Muslim nations [into the U.S.] Others, I think, were sympathetic to the concerns for homeland security. I know that we would have been divided on the Iraq war, if we had talked about that. But we really didn't focus on those differences. One just knew that they were in the room.

Q: What is the appropriate response to a Muslim who says he or she is deeply offended when a Christian tries to talk to him about Christianity and convert him?
A: My experience has been, in talking with people who have been involved in these sorts of interactions, that Muslims are often very interested in talking about religion. They are not uncomfortable talking about religion.

I would be concerned that a Christian listens as much as they speak. It's important that we hear what other people believe and have to say, as well as share our own faith. [In] a free society, if someone is offended or not interested in engaging in a discussion, they're free to change the channel, move on, enter into another kind of relationship.

I do think it's important that we not allow people's emotional reactions -- whether they're offended or pleased and delighted -- to get to the point where we allow that to inhibit our commitment to free speech and free association. We simply must protect religious freedom even for unpopular religious views. That's something that we need to talk very honestly to Muslims about -- that it's important to defend the rights of Muslims and other religious minorities in this society who have views that are either unpopular or unrepresentative. We want to defend their right, as well.

Q: What about the Muslim in a Muslim country? When a Christian goes there and begins to talk about Jesus Christ and the Muslim in his own country says, "But I'm a Muslim. I'm offended that you would try to convert me." What do you answer, then?
A: If you have offended someone so they're not willing to listen any longer, then that is not a fruitful avenue to pursue for evangelism. This is not someone who's interested in hearing what you have to say about Jesus Christ. I would tell a Christian, "That may be the Holy Spirit telling you to move on."

Q: You spoke about human rights and the importance for Christians in this dialogue to point out that human rights in some Muslim countries are not what we in the West might like. Could you be more specific about that?
A: Yes. First of all, I don't think we should talk about human rights from the point of view of, "These are the things that Christians believe should be human rights," or even things that we in the West, or we as Americans, believe. When we're talking about human rights, we ought to use the United Nations standards. We ought to use the Universal Declaration on Human Rights.

We could talk about the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia. We need to talk about the way Christians are treated in southern Sudan. We need to talk about religious freedom. We need to talk about freedom of association and freedom of speech.

The fact of the matter is in many Arab Muslim nations, their general populations are not offered genuine, free human rights. They are often tyrannical governments with regimes that do not want to offer freedom and democracy to the people. We need to talk very broadly about human rights, but we need to use universal standards.

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