Rev. CIZIK: Well, I sent the invitation and thought, "Look, this president needs to cast this debate." And E. J., at that time we had a million people in Central Park protesting cruise missiles in Western Europe, fearful this man would start a nuclear war. And I thought the debate needed to be cast in terms beyond simply political weaponry and the rest, and cast it in terms of a "moral" crusade. Frankly, when the band started to play "Onward Christian Soldiers," even that I thought was aggressive.

ABERNETHY: Anyway, that worked.

Rev. CIZIK: It certainly did, and the debate was on.

Mr. DIONNE: You know, Rich, I wanted to ask you -- I think very few people remember that that was at the NAE. But there's something else about white evangelicals, which is that their political conversion actually predates the rise of any religious conservative movement. In the 1960s a lot of evangelicals or white southerners -- white southerners began converting to the Republican Party over civil rights and other '60s issues. Is it fair to look at it that way and see religion as reinforcing a conversion that had already begun?

Rev. CIZIK: Yes, without the policies, these people would not have gone that way, because Jimmy Carter was an evangelical Christian, but his policies on abortion and other issues -- even his appointments did not coincide with his faith. So it was the actions which followed that deep commitment to faith that cemented this relationship.

Mr. DIONNE: And it is one of the great ironies that Ronald Reagan defeated the first president in a long time who was an openly committed evangelical Christian.

Rev. CIZIK: Yes, yes.

ABERNETHY: E. J., what did you make of all the adulation of this week?

Mr. DIONNE: Well, I know that President Reagan's critics saw it as a week-long hagiography. I think there is a certain natural response to someone who clearly did have a huge political impact for the Right the way Franklin Roosevelt had for the liberal side. I think some questions got shoved aside -- I think in the coming weeks people will take a more balanced view of President Reagan. President Reagan's folks always emphasized the importance of pictures, and this week produced some very powerful pictures and pageantry.

Rev. CIZIK: But, the world changed, E. J., and he was a man who changed it. You can't change that fact, and that is what Americans love him for.

ABERNETHY: Did you consider Ronald Reagan an evangelical?

Rev. CIZIK: Oh, absolutely -- baptized at 11, taught Sunday school, said when he was near death from an assassin's bullet, he said, "Do I want to meet God? No, I've got a lot of work left to do." But when asked to clarify that, he said, "Yes, Jesus is my savior."

Mr. DIONNE: Evangelicals saw him as evangelical. Those who weren't evangelical were not sure he was an evangelical. This is a sign of a very persuasive politician.

ABERNETHY: E. J. Dionne, Richard Cizik of the National Association of Evangelicals, many thanks to you both.