BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: Now, the first of three discussions this month on the moral principles underlying the major issues of the presidential campaign. E. J. Dionne is a columnist for THE WASHINGTON POST, a professor at Georgetown University, and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. Michael Cromartie is vice president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington and was recently appointed by President Bush to be a member of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom. Welcome to you both.

First, briefly, in a few words: Michael, what did you make of this week's debate?

MICHAEL CROMARTIE (Vice President, Ethics and Public Policy Center): Well, I think Senator Kerry wanted to prove to the American people that he was presidential, and he certainly did that. I think President Bush wanted to prove to the American people that he was a decisive leader -- that he took firm stands and that there was no waffling on anything -- and he did that.

ABERNETHY: E. J.?

E. J. DIONNE (Columnist, WASHINGTON POST and Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution): Yes, I think essentially, I agree with Mike, especially on the first half. I think Kerry was in control, was calm, and he spoke English in short sentences and not the past pluperfect subjunctive, which is good. I think President Bush had an off night. I think it showed that if you are in a cocoon and you're not challenged a lot -- you go to events only with your own people -- there's a certain kind of negative reaction. And that scowl of his, I think, will be remembered for a while.

ABERNETHY: The debate was about foreign policy. Let's talk about that. Michael, what in your -- how would you state the underlying moral purpose of American foreign policy? What should it be?

Mr. CROMARTIE: Well, it's the purpose of the president of the United States, the head of the government, to protect the citizens of the United States. So national security is the issue that must underlie anybody who's going to be the president of the United States. In other words, how best to protect the American people? Now, the disagreements come in how you make that happen in the world.

ABERNETHY: E. J.?

Mr. DIONNE: Except for pacifists who obviously, on principle, disapprove [of] the use of force anytime, I think most Americans agree that the use of force is legitimate to prevent violence against our country or against Americans. And I thought in that debate it was very clear that both candidates shared that moral value. I think there's a second, more debated notion, which is it's important for the United States, as the most powerful country in the world, to use force occasionally to protect people outside our borders. And I thought that was the other striking area of agreement in the debate on Darfur and genocide, where both candidates thought we, as a nation, have an obligation to do something about this.

ABERNETHY: And E. J., when is it right and when is it wrong to intervene militarily, as we did in Iraq?

Mr. DIONNE: Well again, I think the -- most Americans believe that military intervention should be, as Kerry kept saying, "a last resort" and designed almost entirely to protect the people of United States, unless there is a calamity so severe that we end up with a moral obligation. And so I think Americans are reluctant interventionists, as a people. And I think that comes out whenever a war goes on for a little bit of a while, you see that in their guts Americans are reluctant interventionists.

Mr. CROMARTIE: And Bob, let me add to that that the "just war" theory had seven criteria. The most hotly disputed part of that criteria is the understanding of last resort. And as you remember, in the debate Senator Kerry kept saying, "I don't think we went to last resort." Honorable people disagree about when "last resort" is. You know, does it mean another UN Security Council resolution, does it mean another negotiation, more diplomacy? There's always going to be a disagreement about when we reach last resort.