Colleen, this has been important to people of many faiths, I think, to have someone as visible as John Paul leading a life and talking about a life that was quite different than the life that most of us lead, but is a life that many of us would like to lead. Talk about that a little bit. I suspect that for you that spiritual legacy is perhaps more important than some of the social questions that we've been talking about.
COLLEEN CARROLL CAMPBELL (Fellow, Ethics and Public Policy Center): I think it is more important, but at the same time I think it's all connected. And I think that as the pope often said, he did have a consistent philosophy; he had one worldview. It was the Christian worldview. He got his cues from the gospel of Jesus Christ, and he believed that required him to stand in defense of life, not only at certain stages but at every stage; not only certain lives, but all lives. And I think in terms of his personal holiness that will really be what, especially, the youth of the world take away from this pope, is this sense that you can embrace your own weakness even in embracing the weakest among us. And you can rely totally on God, and he will take care of you in a way that you could never take care of yourself. And just this idea that you can turn your life completely over to Jesus Christ, and you will live a life of much greater joy and fulfillment than if you spent your life seeking your own pleasure. I think it was radical, and that's why it appealed to so many.
ABERNETHY: Chester, talk about this spiritual quality, and perhaps [it is] something that the cardinals, as they go into the conclave, will be looking for, listening for.
Dr. CHESTER GILLIS (Theology Professor and Chair, Department of Theology, Georgetown University): It's something I particularly admired in this pope. I think, while he was so active in the world, while there were political consequences of all his actions, I think Colleen's absolutely right; everything was centered in Jesus Christ, and I think he had a deep prayer life, and I think he was authentic. There was nothing disingenuous about this; this is exactly who he was and what he drew his strength from. It was his grace from God. And I think, in some ways, that's perhaps his lasting legacy. People speak of him already as a saint; that's up to the Church to decide, but I clearly think that this -- he did have that character, that depth of spirituality, and that's not always true of every pope. Popes are political figures; they are bureaucrats; they are CEOs of large organizations. He was all of those, too, but I think he had a prayer life in which it was grounded. And I think that's a good model.ABERNETHY: You see in the pictures -- we have over the years -- this enormous intensity when he's praying. It's quite affective.
Ms. CARROLL CAMPBELL: And I think you saw that most intensely at the end of his life; he lived what he spoke of for so many years -- that suffering can have value. He lived that to his very last breath, and I think Christians everywhere saw that example of redemptive suffering and took inspiration from it.ABERNETHY: Does that carry over then in -- David -- does that carry over then to what the cardinals may be looking for as they choose a new pope?
DAVID GIBSON (Author, THE COMING CATHOLIC CHURCH): I think it will to a great degree. You look at, you know, you look back to 1978 when John Paul was elected -- Karol Wojtyla. We had a world divided between East and West, and they reached beyond the Berlin Wall, and they chose this man from Communist Poland. He was a man for that time, and for many years after that, obviously, but the world changes as well and the issues change. The Berlin Wall came down; now the divides are really more between the Northern Hemisphere and the developing world in the Southern Hemisphere. There are also issues of bioethics, genetic engineering, euthanasia. In a sense, I think the pope's death and his last years and months and weeks and days that we saw almost pointed the cardinals toward some of the issues surrounding the end of life and the entire value of life that they're going to have to face when they think about choosing a successor to this pope.
KIM LAWTON (Managing Editor, RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY): Well, David, we keep on going back to -- I know they're all of a piece, the social and the spiritual, but I'm wondering, what are some of the spiritual challenges you think face the Church -- apart from social issues, as much as we can't divide them? What are some of the spiritual challenges you think face the Church?
Mr. GIBSON: I think it's really a question of religious indifference, and that really affects largely the industrialized world, the West, certainly ancient Christendom in Europe, but also to a degree in North America -- just convincing people that the pursuit of sanctity, which John Paul made look heroic, is really, is really worth dedicating their lives to. And I think not just dedicating their lives to the spiritual, but carrying that out in a religious framework, in the framework of an ancient tradition, which is what the Catholic Church is. Certainly in this country, spirituality is everywhere, faith is everywhere, but people aren't always very religious. And Pope John Paul combined, I think, that deep, deep spirituality with a great adherence to an ancient tradition.
Dr. PHAM: I think they are going to have to look for someone with a deep spirituality. However, spirituality itself -- the gifts of the spirit are many. And so one shouldn't look for a clone of John Paul simply to find a spiritual person. The spirit can manifest himself in myriad ways and gifts, but they have to look for that spiritual quality. At the same time, the papacy is and remains a human political and ecclesiastical institution. Some of the saints who were popes were disasters as popes but personally very holy. In the 20th century, Pius X was undoubtedly a very holy individual, but he provoked numerous crises that took the Church over half a century to get over. Celestine V, one of the last popes to resign voluntarily, was an exceptionally holy man, but as a pontiff, the six months he was pope helped provoke the great schism and the Babylonian captivity of the Church because he was inept for that public dimension. So they're going to have to seek a balance between the two -- a person who can witness to the eternal and at the same time relate to ordinary mortals.
ABERNETHY: David?
LAWTON: Well, I'm just thinking again, picking up on something you'd said earlier about the lasting images. You know, over the last several days we've seen over and over again the images. And for me some of the most powerful were indeed him before an altar, him kneeling on his staff, leaning on his staff in prayer, and I'm just wondering, you know, I think that that's going to be the enduring image of John Paul, despite all of the crowds and everything else. That's the image I think he leaves.
