Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly . INTERVIEW . James Yee . October 7, 2005

Read more of Deborah Potter's interview with James Yee:

Q: You grew up in a family of practicing Lutherans. You went to church every week.

A: Every Sunday.

Q: Tell me about your beliefs as a youngster and then what attracted you, as a child brought up as a Lutheran, to Islam eventually.

Photo of James Yee

A: I grew up in Springfield, New Jersey. I was raised a Lutheran. I was rather active in the youth group until high school. As a child -- Sunday school every Sunday, and as a teen we went to church every Sunday, pretty much all the children and my mother. I started learning about Islam after I graduated [from] West Point. And it was just really basically through some interfaith dialogue with another student I met on my travels through Washington, DC. The conversation was basically surrounding comparison of religious doctrine. I grew up as a Lutheran believing in the Trinity, the doctrine that God is Three in One. And the dialogue, in comparing the doctrine of Islam, which also believes that God is One -- it was basically that type of discussion. Initially when I heard about Islam, [I heard] that Muslims believe that there's only one God but they don't believe that Jesus is a divine figure in religion. However, Jesus is a very important figure in that he was someone very important to people and taught them that actually God is One, and I believe that God is One. But initially, because I believed in the Trinity, I rejected that idea. And the challenge was put to me that I couldn't really base or judge something without having learned or really studied that topic. And that was true. I had never studied about Islam. So I went and I started doing some self-study on my own. I purchased a general book about Islam, an introduction to Islam. Reading generally about Islam, I found the ideas very easy for me to accept -- that people can believe in just one God and direct their worship to God, but realize that there were a number of people throughout history, prophets, who taught that message that God is One and those people who were chosen by God to spread that message were the most revered.

Q: A lot of people study other religions and don't convert. What pulled you into the conversion process?

A: It made sense to me to direct my worship to a supreme being. Realizing that there's God, the existence of God, and everything else is what God created, and so if something had been created by God then it can't be God. So it made sense to me that I direct my worship to God himself. Man, like myself, is a creation of God. And so thinking about that, it became clear that the prophets -- Moses, David, Abraham, Jesus -- were men of faith who also taught that we should worship and believe in God and not worship them [in order] to worship God. That's what convinced me to explore Islam and really attracted me initially to the faith. When I became Muslim I converted solely based on believing in that simple belief of one God.

Q: What made you decide, then, to take the next step and become a chaplain, which was not what you went into the military to be?

A: I was in the military as an air defense officer. I served in the aftermath of the first Gulf War as a Patriot missile fire control officer, and shortly after the first Gulf War I was deployed to Saudi Arabia for six months. While I was stationed in Dahran -- I was actually living at Khobar Towers, and that was the site of the bombing against the American troops, I think, in '96 -- and in the process of my being a very new Muslim at the time, I learned that, being in the theater, there was an opportunity for American Muslims serving in the Gulf to go to Mecca and visit Mecca as a minor pilgrimage-type journey. I eventually looked into this possibility, and the command approved myself and three other Muslims who were in the unit to go on a trip to Mecca and see the holy mosque. I recall [thinking] on my way to Mecca: Here I am a Muslim of only five months; my interaction and experience with other Muslims had only been Arabs or African Americans. And my impression was, I could be Muslim because I believe the same thing that they do. I believe in one God. I believe in the lineage of the prophethood of the messengers. But I was still under the idea that I would be the only Muslim Chinese -- of Chinese heritage -- visiting Mecca that day. This was my impression, as this might be the impression of many people in the West and many people in America. And I was very surprised when our bus rode up to the outside of the grand mosque at Saudi Arabia, and the first large group of pilgrims, of Muslims that I saw was a group of Asian Muslims. I would say they were probably either from Indonesia or Malaysia. On that trip it was an eye-opening experience. I saw Muslims from all different parts of the world. And this wasn't during the holy month of Ramadan. It wasn't during the main pilgrimage season. This was just any time during the year. It was truly a universal experience, a symbol of diversity. And I was drawn by what I saw.

Q: So why then decide to stop being a Patriot missile officer and try to become a chaplain?

A: Well, it wasn't an initial idea that "now I have to become a chaplain." What that experience did for me, it really brought out my faith. And I saw it as a faith that was being applied universally around the world -- that it was inclusive, included people of all different races, and that's what made me or inspired me to want to know more about Islam in depth and really study the religion and the doctrine. It inspired me into becoming a better practicing Muslim. Coming back to my job in Saudi Arabia, coming back to Dahran, rejoining my unit -- I often frequented this Saudi cultural center which was set up on the base. And in that cultural center I recall seeing a thick notebook full of pages, and each page was a one-page short description of a person who converted to Islam while they were serving in the Gulf. And so I saw this growth of Islam from our involvement in the first Gulf War and realized that there were Muslims now in the military and that perhaps this is going to be a sector of the military population that is going to grow. But I hadn't heard that there were any Muslim chaplains. So this was something that I began to consider at that time.

Q: What drew you to the profession of the chaplaincy? What is it about being a military chaplain that interested you or attracted you to that work?

A: Initially my impression of becoming a chaplain was that I would be focusing my work on improving conditions for Muslims in the military. To see to it that the Muslims who are serving within the armed forces have the freedom to practice, to make their prayers every day, to fast in the month of Ramadan, to get leave approved during the time of the pilgrimage -- things like this -- to attend the Friday prayer. Initially it was my understanding that that's what I would be focusing all of my time and effort on. And [these things] did become part of my job, but it was much more than that. But that's initially what drew me -- wanting to uphold the fundamental value of freedom of religion.

Q: And when you went into training, you say that this whole idea of a free exercise of religion by all in the military is sometimes a difficult concept for many would-be chaplains. Why is that?

A: Well, that was actually a point that was made to us very early in our chaplain training, when I went to the chaplain officer's basic course. We started learning about pluralism. The point was made very early on that we should seriously consider, you know, our ability within ourselves to help others who do not believe the same things that we do to practice their religion. If we couldn't, then this job as a military chaplain is not right for us. But what I found going through that training is that, yes, some chaplains did have a problem with that concept. Naturally, people have a belief that their view is the right view or the only view. And perhaps that made it difficult for many who were fellow colleagues of mine becoming chaplains. I do know that being a Christian, you know, growing up as a Christian myself, that there is a part of Christianity which encourages you to go out and to spread what you know to others, in hopes that they will join your denomination or accept the beliefs that you believe. But within the military there are strict regulations which prohibit proselytizing in government institutions because of the separation of church and state.

Q: And yet we see that happens. Did you see it when you were serving in the chaplains corps? Did you see other chaplains essentially proselytizing?

A: One of the things that I did observe when I was down in Guantanamo was, when I first got there, I learned from my predecessor, Chaplain Hamsa, the Muslim chaplain -- he told me that the only chaplain allowed into Camp Delta is the Muslim chaplain. And he said the reason for that was because just recently, before I had gotten there, one of the Protestant chaplains had conducted an interview with the media and had stated that five Muslim prisoners in Guantanamo had converted to Christianity. When this was reported in a news article, the commander immediately stopped the Christian chaplains from going into the -- and the commander at that time, I believe it was General Baccus; I'm not sure about who the commander was that ordered and made it clear that no other chaplains were allowed into the camp except the Muslim chaplain.

Q: Let's talk about Guantanamo. How differently were you perceived by your fellow soldiers, by your superiors, and by the prisoners?

A: There were four other chaplains who were serving down there with me, with Joint Task Force Guantanamo, and then there were two navy chaplains assigned to the naval station. I was the only non-Christian chaplain among that group of seven, and I worked well with them. They understood my role in Camp Delta, and they understood that I provided the worship services for the Muslim personnel, which was quite [a] large [group] because there were a number of American Muslim personnel who were serving as translators. They were in the military, or they were civilian. I had an active community of American Muslims in my congregation as well, and we worked well together, and I was accepted as a colleague. I didn't have a lot of conflict based on what my job was. As a fellow soldier, there were some conflicts within the camp because I was counseling the prisoners, but yet the soldiers who were serving as guards were often in conflict with the prisoners themselves. And so I was employed by the commander of the camp to sometimes try and relieve these tensions, because these tensions and conflicts often led to the riots within the camp, within the blocs. I was used to try and defuse a lot of this tension. Some of my suggestions and recommendations to the command to relieve or to revisit some of the policies that were being implemented maybe went against some of the normal practices of the guards. So there was some tension sometimes between myself and the guards, but that was mainly in the camp. Outside of camp I got along well with the guards themselves on a social basis. I greeted them. You know, I helped soldiers in whatever capacity that I could.

Q: A large part of your job was providing religious support to the prisoners. This is a standard that the military has always provided to prisoners, correct?

A: Well, Guantanamo Bay is a very unique situation, so it's hard to answer that question of whether it's the standard or not. Guantanamo seems not to be the standard of anything because things that are happening there -- it seems like there, Guantanamo has its own rules. But a chaplain's role in the military is to provide for the free exercise of worship for all personnel, all people. I had never served in an environment where the chaplain is serving prisoners of war or EPWs, enemy prisoners of war, as they are called in the military. I have served in some sense as a prison chaplain in limited duty at Fort Lewis. At Fort Lewis there is a confinement facility where there are prisoners. When a chaplain is assigned weekend staff duty, that job includes the chaplain going and visiting the prisoners at the confinement facility. So I did have some experience providing religious support and counsel to prisoners, but not prisoners of war.

Q: And they are not even considered prisoners of war. Technically they are enemy combatants at Guantanamo, which raises the confusion even higher.

A: The current administration's view is that these prisoners in Guantanamo are not prisoners of war, and they are characterized as unlawful enemy combatants.

Q: And yet your job was described, at least in part, as providing religious support to these prisoners, however we describe them. That was, at least in part, what your job was meant to be at Guantanamo.

A: According to the standard operating procedures, that was my role. It's also important to realize, though, that down in Guantanamo there are certain things that are provided; however, the commands and the U.S. administration, though they may provide certain things, still contend that they don't have a right to those things. I provided religious support even though it was part of the standard operating procedures. Realize, though, that our government still contends that it's not their right to have those things, even though I was providing it, and could at any time withdraw that, whatever it is that has been provided.

Q: So it was a privilege, the way they saw it -- it was a privilege for those prisoners to have your services there as a chaplain?

A: In some sense.

Q: Were you essentially set down in a situation where you couldn't win either way? Effectively they were providing a privilege to prisoners that you were asked to provide, but at any moment it could be yanked away?

A: Well, initially I went not really knowing what my role was going to be down there. It wasn't explained what I would be doing, just that I would be working with the prisoners as well as providing the worship service for the American Muslims. In terms of the Guantanamo detention operation, I didn't know what my role was going to be. So I was under the impression I was going down there so that the Joint Task Force Guantanamo could say we had a Muslim chaplain assigned to the operation; therefore, that means we are being sensitive to the religion of prisoners. I was under the impression that perhaps when I got down there that's all they needed me for -- [so] that they can make this claim -- and did not expect me to be actively involved in the operation. However, when I got down there and I interacted with those of the detention operation staff, I proved myself and my capabilities to the deputy commander and the commander of the detention operation and showed them what I could do for the mission. I presented them with guidance, advice, recommendations, cultural expertise. I brought to them what I could contribute to the Joint Task operation, and they believed in what I could do. And in seeing what I could do, they employed me very actively in the operation.

Q: How was what you were providing helpful to the mission, the mission being effectively to get information from those prisoners?

A: It should be understood that the mission down in Guantanamo is twofold. You have the interrogation operation, which is kept very separate from the detention operation. I was assigned to the detention operation. The mission of the detention operation was to handle the daily needs of the prisoners: feeding the prisoners, taking them to recreation, giving them showers, religious support, which was my role. I was far removed from the interrogation and what went on in the interrogation sessions. Being assigned to the detention operations, of course, my providing religious support, I believe, helped run that part of the operation a lot smoother because it allowed the prisoners to practice their religion freely and openly, although sometimes there was conflict with the guards. My job was to try and eliminate those tensions or those conflicts so that the daily handling of the detention operation would run smoothly.

Q: But didn't you also say that you felt in part if that went more smoothly, the prisoners might be more likely to cooperate in the interrogation?

A: Exactly, and sometimes this issue came up -- when there were many complaints about the abuse of the Qur'an, for example, or certain policies were being implemented in how detainees were searched before they were taken from their cell inappropriately, or when there were complaints about the Qur'ans consistently falling on the floor, on the ground, accidentally in the conduct of cell searches. These complaints, when they became repeated, would lead to tensions, riots, then the IRF-ing [Immediate Response Force] or the forced cell extractions, which would upset the detainees even more, to the extent that when they went to interrogation, they would make these complaints repeatedly to their interrogators. And it became an issue between the interrogators and the detainees themselves as to all of this turmoil that was going on inside the camp. It was disrupting the intelligence operation, and when that happens then, of course, the command takes concern and says, "We need to stop these riots, we need to calm the situation down."

Q: Do you think it was more difficult for you as a Muslim chaplain dealing with Muslim prisoners than it would have been if, let's say, the tables were completely reversed and a Christian chaplain was trying to deal with Christian prisoners? Is there some difference about Islam versus other religions that made your role more difficult?

Q: I would say first of all that theoretically, a chaplain in the military is supposed to be able to provide for the free exercise [of religion] for all people regardless of what their denomination is. I myself, when I was at Fort Lewis, had a battalion of some 700 soldiers, very few of them Muslim, but I was able to provide their opportunity to worship the way they wanted to. In Guantanamo, when I was there, there [were] about 660 Muslim prisoners. But I don't believe that a Christian chaplain can go into that situation and fully understand the religious needs of that large a group to adequately advise the command on the ramifications or the implications that religion had on that operation. My being a Muslim chaplain, [I] had much, much better insight into the concerns of the detainees, because I am a practicing Muslim myself. And I was better able to relay that to the command. So in that sense, without there being a Muslim chaplain down there now, I think that's a cause for concern.

Q: You talk about Islam being not just a religion but a way of life. Did that make it more difficult to manage the relationship in a way it might not have been, for example, had it been a prison full of practicing Jews or practicing Christians? In other words, that Islam is more than just something the prisoners need to be able to do once a week, just as an example? Do you think that made it more difficult?

A: I think that's what made the religious paradigm very unique and why [there is] the need for a Muslim chaplain to be down there, because the way Islamists practice on a daily basis is a way of life. And that's something that I understand because it's also my way of life. Praying five times a day, fasting fully in the month of Ramadan, the religious aspects of worship, reciting the Qur'an, the call to prayer -- all of these things; the halal diet, the proper slaughter of the meat that is acceptable in a strict religious diet.

Q: You also say that you think cultural ignorance was at least partly to blame for the attitudes that you encountered at Guantanamo. But at the same time you say that the military used Islam as a weapon. Is there any contradiction there? If it's cultural ignorance that is involved in some of the attitudes of the soldiers and some of the superior officers, how could they also be smart enough to use Islam as a weapon against these prisoners?

A: I would say that it definitely was used as a weapon, and I'll give you one example. When the issue of Qur'an abuse became a major problem, the military employed me to develop a set of standard operating procedures giving guidance on how to properly handle the Qur'an. I wrote that, and I authored that, and it was implemented. However, one of the things written into that standard operating procedure which I didn't author was that every cell would have a Qur'an, must have a Qur'an, and it could not be taken except with the approval of the camp commander. The situation of abuse of the Qur'an got so bad that the detainees themselves requested to give me the Qur'ans so I could put them back in the library where they wouldn't be abused. The prisoners felt assured that if I took the Qur'ans and put them back in the library, there would be no abuse of the Qur'an, especially in front of them in their cells. However, the command's decision was, "No, the detainees are not allowed to turn in the Qur'ans. It's our policy to enforce that every cell has a Qur'an." So this became a way to rile the detainees by repeated abuse or mishandling or disrespect towards the Qur'an in front of the prisoners, because they knew that this would rile them up. In this way Islam was being used as a weapon. Instead of allowing the freedom of religion, now it seemed that we were forcing the Qur'ans on detainees even after it got to the point where they no longer wanted to keep those Qur'ans themselves.

There was a major complaint about something that happened in an interrogation session, and this disrupted the entire camp. The complaint was that an interrogator had kicked the Qur'an across the floor. Disrespect against the Qur'an was something they clearly knew would rile detainees and get them angered. Another complaint that was made, also occurring in the interrogation sessions, by the detainees in regard to the Qur'an was that often in the interrogation session they would play [recordings of] the Qur'an. Now when the Qur'an is played, proper etiquette is to listen to it and respect the words of God. However, the interrogators would play the Qur'an and then conduct the interrogation session over the words of the Qur'an, shouting or in loud voices or playing other music, knowing that this is considered disrespectful to the words of God by the prisoner.

Other instances [of using Islam as a weapon] might be the forced shaving policy. There was a policy that was implemented that whenever a detainee or prisoner was disciplined and taken to a solitary confinement cell, he would forcibly have his beard shaved. In a very strict, conservative interpretation of Islamic law, many Muslims believe that a beard is a religious obligation. Many of the prisoners believed that growing a beard was their religious obligation. The policy which forced them to shave the beard, or where they were held down and someone shaved their beard, was another aspect of religion that was used against them. Maybe another example could be the process which the guards were implementing or conducting -pat-down body searches, specifically at times using females to conduct that search. Conservative Muslims limit the amount of direct contact that they have with females who are not close family or their wives. I would say a great majority of Muslims down in Guantanamo never had any contact with female strangers, [only] with their wives and their family. To have a female guard conduct a pat-down search was very uncomfortable. You might call this a cross-gender search, and cross-gender searches in general are not even conducted within our own prisons here in the United States. But this was something I believe the command knew was an added pressure point on the prisoners because of their religious practice and how they view physical contact between men and women.

Q: Wouldn't it be possible, though, to look at that from the other side and suggest that maybe that's how the command saw its job, which is to break these prisoners? You had to use every possible approach you could to get at them, to get them to crack. Isn't it possible that they had security reasons for wanting to shave beards, for example, or to look inside Qur'ans or to do body searches?

A: There is that concern. But I think what has to be looked at here is, one, what are the values that our nation holds? One is freedom of religion. I believe religious freedom is a right that all people have regardless of where you are or where you come from. We have prisons full of criminals -- murderers, rapists -- but they are accorded freedom of religion as long as their practice does not put anyone else in danger. So there is a concern there. One of the things that was written on my officer evaluation report, which was dated two days before my arrest (it was the best one I had ever received as an officer in the United States Army) was that my supervisor wrote that the recommendations I made to the command took into account forced protection considerations, meaning I had made recommendations to improve policies of the command but I also considered the ramifications on security as well. So, yes, there are concerns for security. But it becomes extreme when you go overboard.

Q: But these are not ordinary criminals, as far as the United States government is concerned. These are potential criminals who have information about future threats. That's one reason they are being interrogated, right? So you could say they're trying to prevent more terrorism. Why isn't it okay to use any tactic you can think of to get that information?

A: As I mentioned, we uphold certain values. The same argument can be made about torture, for example. Why can't we use torture in order to get as much information as possible? I think it works in the same way. When you cross the line by violating fundamental values, values that we as a nation uphold and promote around the world, then when we violate those principles, then we're in fact doing the opposite and may be causing more harm to ourselves in believing that we're going to get better information, when in fact we're interrupting or disrupting the intel gathering process.

Q: Why do you believe that you became a target of an investigation and then were ultimately arrested?

Q: The anti-Muslim hostility down at Guantanamo was strong, not only towards the prisoners who were Muslim but also towards the military Muslims who were serving in Guantanamo. I wasn't the only one who was looked at as a potential suspect or spy or espionage. There was another airman who was arrested as well, Airman al-Halabi, who was also put in jail for nine months. There were other members who were also under investigation who were Muslims. All of these people that they had under investigation were people who were practicing Muslims, who regularly attended my service -- part of my congregation -- and who socialized together. There were misunderstandings about Muslims socializing together. Why is that suspicious? There were suspicions about Muslims who were working overtime, striving for excellence by putting in extra duty in order to get the job done. But a Muslim in Guantanamo who was staying late in order to do more work was seen as suspicious. So these are the kind of things that were going on down in Guantanamo.

Q: Do you believe you were targeted simply because you're a Muslim?

A: I believe I was targeted in large part because of my religion. The lack of knowledge -- because ... my form of prayer, in which I bow prostrate to the ground, and reciting of the Qur'an in the Arabic language, was the same form of prayer as the prisoners in Guantanamo. That led many to believe that if these are alleged suspects, then I must be an alleged suspect.

Q: In one issue of the camp newsletter you wrote, "Why are we still afraid of Islam?" Do you believe Americans in general or the American military is afraid of Islam? And if so, why?

A: I believe that Americans when they're educated, or people in general when they're educated, are able to judge correctly. There's an extreme lack of knowledge, and because of that people are afraid of Islam. I found when I lecture[d] to large numbers of soldiers who basically had no understanding of the religion of Islam that many of them were impressed with or were surprised to find that many of the beliefs that I held as a Muslim were many of the beliefs that they held as non-Muslims. You know, for example, some of the beliefs about Jesus. [I] as a Muslim believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. This is a fundamental belief in the Christian religion. And they were surprised that Muslims believe the same thing, as Muslims believe that Jesus will return to this life. In the Christian religion, Christians are also awaiting the second coming of Christ.

Q: But you've heard people say, "Those were not Presbyterians in those planes that flew into the World Trade Center. Those were not Presbyterians who blew up the subways in London."

A: "Those were Muslims."

Q: "Those were Muslims." You've heard this. How do you respond?

A: I think the best way to respond to that is, when someone learns about Islam, that Islam doesn't advocate the killing of innocent people, doesn't promote violence. Timothy McVeigh, for example, was not a Muslim, but his religion wasn't blamed for his act. What has happened is the religion of Islam has become blamed for criminal acts instead of individuals being blamed for their acts.

Q: And you were blamed, or at least you were accused of being essentially a spy. You were put in solitary confinement for 76 days. How did you handle that, and how did your faith help you handle that?

A: My faith was a very strong part of being able to handle that, and it was very difficult. Even now in some sense [it is] very difficult to go back and recall how I was able to get through that. It got to a point where I was accused of some heinous crimes that I could potentially get the death penalty [for]. Initially I thought it was pretty much absurd and ridiculous. How is it that I'm being accused of crimes I could be put to death for? And I thought, perhaps this thing will be cleared up very easily. I believed that General [Geoffrey] Miller was very reasonable, and he would see that this was absurd, and it would be cleared up immediately. But that didn't happen, and the longer it took, the more I became worried that perhaps maybe one day I [would] get the death penalty. At that point, that's where I became frightened, and I had to rely on my faith, and the only way I was able to get through it was under the realization that I had to accept that was a possibility. But I came to the state of mind that if I was going to get the death penalty, then at least I would be put to death in a state where I was getting closer to God, the God that I worship. And my belief in the hereafter, knowing that one day I will be brought forth before God, that I would be blessed and I would be rewarded for an increase of faith when someone [was] falsely accusing me of crimes which could very well have put me to death.

Q: Your record was cleared. You got an honorable discharge from the military ultimately.

A: And the Army Commendation Medal.

Q: Were you guilty essentially of just being too sympathetic to the prisoners?

A: I think I was guilty of striving too hard to uphold the values of diversity, freedom of religion, equality, and tolerance. That's what I was guilty of. I believe strongly in those principles, in those concepts. I'm an Asian American; I'm a Muslim American. Right there, those are two minority sectors in our nation. I believe that one of the greatest strengths of our country is that of diversity, and I believe that makes us the better country. I went down to Guantanamo believing that by upholding those principles of diversity and freedom of religion we would have not only a better -- not only would I have contributed greatly to the mission down there, but ultimately I was making this country a better nation. And that's what I was guilty of -- striving to reach and uphold those values.

Q: You once said that you always carried a copy of the Qur'an and a copy of the U.S. Constitution in your pockets. Do you still?

Photo of James Yee

A: You're testing me here. I have a copy of the Constitution. It's interesting. I read the very first line, "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice. ..." I believe my story very much is a story of justice. What I went through, the terrible ordeal that I suffered through was a gross miscarriage of justice. The Constitution fights for justice. One of the values of Islam is to uphold justice. The beauty of the Constitution is its congruence with my religion, Islam, which strives to uphold peace and justice.

Q: Do you think justice ultimately has been done in this case? All charges have been dismissed. Your record was wiped clean. Has justice been done?

A: When, finally, the charges were dismissed, some people finally came to their senses. However, the fact that I served 76 days under harsh conditions in which I was prevented from having those rights -- I was prevented from having the religious rights that I fought for for the prisoners in Guantanamo. I didn't get my liturgical calendar that indicated my prayer times. I wasn't given the direction of Mecca so I could pray in the proper direction according to my faith. I wasn't even allowed access to a clock. In Guantanamo I made sure that the prisoners down there heard the call to prayer five times a day, that they had an arrow in their cells pointing to the correct direction of Mecca, that they were able to make their prayers, have proper Islamic diets. The values, the religious freedom that I fought for for the prisoners down in Guantanamo I didn't get myself, and I believe that is not justice.

Q: What consequences do you think your case has had for Muslims in the military, for Muslims who might want to be in the military, or for other Muslim chaplains and for the military itself?

A: A strong consequence of what happened in my case is the senior leadership of the army, the military, has been undermined. How did my case get so out of hand? Why didn't the senior leadership of the command take control of the situation, make a value-to-risk assessment, and qualify whether or not putting me in jail was really, in fact, the right thing to do? That could have been cleared up by analyzing things that had been seized from me and finding out that there was no evidence, there was no classified information, which I was accused of having. These bad decisions that were made by the leaders undermine the trust of the people in the military leadership of the army. And these are the people that we trust the lives of our sons and daughters to when they go and serve the country. You've got their faith in the decision-making of those in command. That's one consequence.

The second consequence is the damage that my case has done to the military justice system. I didn't get a fair shake. I was under the U.S. court martial system, which theoretically provides the same constitutional rights and due process rights as our civilian courts. But if I, a U.S. citizen, couldn't be treated fairly under that system, how can the foreign prisoners in Guantanamo be treated fairly under a system that provides much less in terms of rights and due process than what I received? That makes it more difficult for us or our country to hold accountable people who potentially will be responsible for crimes.

Q: Do you think that other Muslims would look at your case and say, "Why go in the military if that's -- "

A: Think? I have traveled around the United States and visited many Muslim communities, and I know from people that I have interacted with in the Muslim community they're reluctant to want to have anything to do with serving the military or the government. I believe there were two chaplain candidates in seminary who were ready to join active duty while I was down in Guantanamo. After I was arrested, they finished their program but decided not to come into the military. So definitely it hurt recruiting in the military at a time when perhaps Muslims in the military can make great contributions, based upon our military activity today.

Q: What would you personally advise a young Muslim who was considering a military career?

A: I would advise that person to first of all think very carefully what he or she wants to do. Joining the military is a big decision, and it involves making a contract. It's not something that you can easily get out of.

Q: That's true for any young person. They should consider that.

A: I would ask that person to consider whether or not he or she feels what he or she is going to do in terms of contributing to the military, if that would be valued. I think that's important to consider when you join the military: is your contribution going to be valued?

Q: So what are you saying, exactly?

A: I'm saying these are considerations that young people need to make, especially Muslim Americans. But those who do choose to go into the military, I would advise them to strive for excellence, to be the role model for all of those people you are working with and for. You should strive to excel and be very detailed and cautious in terms of covering all your bases. I'd like to say that when I was in the military I use to cross all my t's and dot all my i's and leave no room for someone else to scrutinize my work. I was always someone to excel, to be the best, and it [was] reflected even when I was in Guantanamo on my evaluation report, on the awards that I received, on the recognition. I would recommend to those young Muslims who do choose to join the military that that helps counter the negative stereotypes that Muslims are unpatriotic or don't contribute.

Q: That's all very good advice for any young person who thinks about going into the military. How is it different for a young Muslim? What considerations are there? Essentially you feel you were targeted because of your religion. So aren't you in a position, then, to tell other Muslims, "Don't do this. It's not a good place for a Muslim to be"?

A: When I worked as a chaplain in the military, we listen[ed] to [people] when they [came] to [us] with concerns. By listening it often helps that person get a clear understanding of what their problem is, and it encouraged that person to solve that problem for themselves. It's not me telling them what they should or shouldn't do. But as a listener, it allows that person to understand better the problem that he or she is going through.

Q: What's next for you? At one point you said you wanted to stay in the military, but that's not happening.

A: I made my decision. I left, and one of the main reasons I left was, after experiencing a lot of the obstacles that were put in my path even after my record was cleared and I was exonerated and sent back to duty, one of the factors that I also weighed was being able to contribute in a much larger way. It's my hopes that the book I've written will be an even greater contribution than I've made in the military. That's one of my hopes.

Q: Do you see yourself leading a congregation again, in a different way?

A: It's possible. But right now I'm concentrating also on advanced education. I'm very close to finishing a master's degree in international relations. I'm one course away. My experience down in Guantanamo has very broad international implications and has also spurred more interest in that field of study, so with my background in Islam, religion, with international relations, with some experience that I was given with communications and public relations, as well as my understanding of the military system and how things operate within the military, I hope to use all of that in pursuing my intent to continue to contribute in the future. But, you know, I am in transition.