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INTERVIEW:
Hollyn Hollman
February 10, 2006    Episode no. 924
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Read more of Kim Lawton's interview with Hollyn Hollman, general counsel for the Baptist Joint Community for Religious Liberty:

Photo of Hollyn Hollman Anytime the government enters into formal, contractual relationships with houses of worship, red flags should go up for people who care about religious liberty. Religious liberty has thrived under our system of government with the separation of church and state largely because the government has left religious entities, including houses of worship, to flourish on their own merits. Whenever government funds religious entities, it risks funding religion in a way that is incompatible with our constitutional tradition. Religion in America has been a voluntary endeavor. It has flourished well under our system of government.

When religion is funded by government, it tends to be controlled by government. Religious entities start answering to government's concerns instead of matters of [their] own conscience and religious tradition. Religions are threatened because they become entangled with government process, with the bureaucracy and red tape of government. They also lose their independence, their autonomy that gives them such moral force to speak out for justice in society, when they become enmeshed with or tied too closely to a political party or to government in general. So there are many threats.

A house of worship might thrive because it's dependent on voluntary contributions and voluntary efforts of the people in that community. And it can totally change when they are seen as accepting tax dollars and serving government's purposes instead of God's purposes.

We have a long tradition of religious entities cooperating with government under traditional rules that protect religious liberty. What I hear the administration saying is we need to change those rules. I say the burden is on them to show us why we need that change. ...

There is a real tension between allowing [an] entity to operate in its full religious nature and at the same time protecting against the impermissible advancement of religion with government funding. It's hard for me to see how we can ensure that religious entities operate in the way that they do fully according to their religious dictates and at this time guard against government funding of religion, which is a core value that has protected religious freedom in our country.

I think it's very unfortunate that some people would use this tragedy [Hurricane Katrina] to advance a policy that's been extremely controversial. It's been controversial for a good reason, and that's because it causes a threat to religious freedom. I do think there is great sympathy and empathy for the enormous needs that people face in the Gulf Coast. I think it requires creativity and a greater cooperation on behalf of all of us -- government entities and volunteering organizations, including houses of worship. But I don't think this should be an opportunity to fundamentally change the way we do church-state relations.

I think that there will be houses of worship that under other circumstances would not consider taking government funding that will certainly be tempted. And for those houses of worship, we can understand that temptation. What we would say is that they need to go in very cautiously and carefully, aware of the risk of government funding. That's the risk -- that they become dependent on that government funding, that they are subject to rules and regulations that get them into legal trouble that they aren't prepared to handle, and that they lose their moral authority and independence that has served them so well.

We should be concerned with getting houses of worship and other religious entities back on their feet -- ones that provided such great services and have such enormous needs. We really need to be concerned that they're able to continue to respond, that they're going to be there for the next disaster. And when we fundamentally change how they operate, I think [there is] the risk that they would not be able to do what they did in this situation in the years to come.

We need to be careful about creating exceptions that will later be expanded and actually swallow up the rule [separating church and state]. While I certainly understand the immediate needs, I also would encourage those houses of worship and religious entities to be aware about how this would affect their long-term ability to serve their community. There many be private sources of funding that do not cause the same complications and do not have the same risks to these entities that the government funding has involved. First we should seek to make sure that these groups have access to private funding. And we need to be careful about any kind of false promises that government might make.

We have many stories about religion entities that we're hearing -- that they were going to be reimbursed and helped from the government. And weeks after the hurricane, they had still not seen any government agency. I think it's important that while many will consider, and maybe for the first time engage in, a more financial relationship with government, they need to go in with their eyes wide open, aware of the risks.

All of us need to be aware that whenever we create these exceptions to the rule we risk opening the door for the next situation and fundamentally changing a tradition and a practice that has really served religion very, very well.

[The recent law allowing student evacuees to use federal vouchers for religious schools] was very troubling. Voucher proposals have been around for decades, and they have not fared very well for numerous reasons -- mainly for education policy reasons [and] justice issues about how we fund public schools and church-state reasons -- whether or not it's constitutional to allow taxpayer dollars to fund specific religious education. And yet in this tragic situation where there's a huge need for quick response, we see Congress pushing through the system that really opens the door to larger voucher programs. ...

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[The law] is a great concern because it becomes harder to fight the next voucher proposal that will be larger. I don't think that this is the end of the question. I don't, by any means, think that this ends the debate over vouchers. But I do think it makes it harder the next time someone proposes a voucher proposal. While the conditions of the Gulf Coast are certainly emergency conditions, who's to say that the next problem could be defined as an emergency to further justify expanding voucher programs? I know there are those who will argue that certain public schools that aren't performing well create an emergency situation that demands a voucher response. The situation on the Gulf Coast and Congress's response opens the door for that argument. ...

The government is not competent or constitutionally permitted to pay for or provide spiritual services. These [faith-based] organizations did a great job because they responded not only to the physical needs but to the spiritual needs of people there. And we're going to make sure that they continue to be able to do that. They are the ones the can do that. The government is not fit to do that kind of work.

The fundamental question about funding religious entities is that they are not allowed to use tax dollars to proselytize, to evangelize, to conduct religious worship and education, and that's for good reason. Those things should be voluntary. Anytime an entity that's involved in those issues from those houses of worship that aren't involved in spreading the message, anytime they engage with government funding, then they have to be concerned about separating and segregating the way they do their work to make sure that we don't have that unconstitutional advancement of religion.

We're not certain about what kind of accountability is going to be required of these entities. It's a double-edged sword. From the church's standpoint, they are concerned and they don't want to be over-regulated. I certainly understand that. The taxpayers' concern [is] we want them to be accountable, to make sure that tax dollars go to support the social services that our government should provide and not the spiritual services that should be provided through voluntary efforts or voluntary funds.

The constitutional issues that are raised by these funding policies are at the heart of what the religion clauses [of the First Amendment] mean. They don't allow government to advance religion in financial ways. When the Founders provided this First Amendment, they did so out of respect for religion -- knowing government should not advance religion, that it should be left [on] its own to flourish. They were concerned with government controlling religion as well as the excesses of religion controlling government.

With regard to education, government's first duty is to fund the public schools, those schools that take all students wherever they are without regard to their financial resources or their religious tradition. The public schools operate in a way that is open to all students from all backgrounds and without regard to their religious tradition or their parents' financial situation. The government's commitment to education should begin with ensuring that public schools are well funded. While private and parochial schools perform important functions and I'm sure will be called on to do even more than normal during these times, our government does not allow taxpayer dollars to support religious education. Parochial schools that promote religious education should do so with private funding. ...

Many parochial schools get funding support from their religious bodies. Many of them operate under entirely different rules than the public schools. They're not held to the same standards and they're not required to let all students in without regard to income. So they're very differently situated than the public schools. While of course private and parochial schools offer important services and I'm certain are called on to do more today, our first commitment has to be to those public schools that are open to all children.

In the face of these enormous challenges, it's not enough to say, "Don't take government money." We know that. And religious entities are coming together and working to make sure that they step up their voluntary contributions through their religious association and through their churches. Many people want to be involved with voluntary gifts, and we urge houses of worship to look first to private firms. One example is the Bush-Clinton fund, a very large private fund that we hope goes to these private religious entities that should not be funded by the government and, indeed, one area of emphasis of the Bush-Clinton fund is to fund these organizations.

The president in his speech from New Orleans asked all of us to continue to give through all of our voluntary organizations. You know, I think we have to do everything. We have to look to government. While we are all looking at these religious entities and admiring how they respond to the tragedy, we need to be careful that our attentions to those entities don't take us away from the important task of calling the government to respond in a large way, in a way that these small entities could never perform. While we appreciate and support these small religious entities, we must call on the government to do more, to do the things that small religious entities cannot do.

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