Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly . INTERVIEW . Keith Butler . April 28, 2006

Read more of Kim Lawton's April 18, 2006 interview with Keith Butler:

Q: How should we identify you?

A: Well, if we're talking in a religious realm, I would be Bishop Keith Butler. In a political realm, I'm Keith Butler, candidate for U.S. Senate.

Q: What prompts a minister to run for the Senate?

Photo of Bishop Keith Butler

A: Well, first of all, I feel strongly led to do it. I'm at the very front end of what happens on the street with public policy. I'm the person that they come to [if] they can't get a job. I'm the person they come to if there are problems getting an education. I'm the person they come to if they need help. I'm the person they come to if they can't pay for gas prices. I'm someone that actually is on the very cutting edge of what happens out here on the street to real, live people. People in Washington -- not all of them, but many of them in Washington -- have not been in the type of situation I've been in. I've started from zero, from nothing, built an organization, have hundreds of employees, pay a health care bill of $105,000 a month, feed people, clothe people, educate kids, and have done it from a standpoint from having to build it from the ground. Washington needs to have people there as I believe the Founding Fathers envisioned, people who are not just lawyers but people who actually are not intending to be career politicians but go there, serve for a while, bring their expertise, things they know, then come back and live under the very laws that they've created. From what I've seen in these 30-plus years I've been in the ministry, it's time for someone like me and others.

Q: African Americans traditionally vote Democratic. What made you switch? Do you see a trend emerging among African Americans?

A: I'll start with the latter. There's certainly a trend of African Americans away from the Democratic Party. Not necessarily to the Republican Party, but definitely becoming independent. They recognize that the Democrats have not fulfilled what they've talked about. And after giving them 90 percent support, they don't even get 10 percent results for them. Here in my state, there's never been a Democrat ever put up for the United States Senate that's black. Never a governor that's black. Not any major office in the Democratic Party is black. Yet they get 90 percent support here. And the people are beginning to understand what's happening. And then African Americans are becoming more affluent financially, more middle class, more business owners and the like, and beginning to understand the results of the policies of the liberal wing that the Democratic Party's put forth and what the Republicans stand for, and they're beginning to understand that, you know, maybe what the Republicans are talking about makes a lot more sense for us in the long run. Finally, you have a younger generation. This generation is not wedded to or wasn't around back in the '50s and '60s, when a lot of strife went on. The Republican Party has done a terrible job with telling our story. Most of those governors like George Wallace and what happened in Alabama and Tennessee and Mississippi -- those were Democrats. They were not Republicans. Most people don't even know that. So as people start to find that out and find out the history, I think all the combination of all these things is starting to erode the Democrats' stranglehold on African Americans.

Q: How important are social issues and moral issues to this trend?

A: Certainly for a significant portion of the African-American experience, including myself, those issues are very important. First of all, our Declaration of Independence tells us that we have a creator [who] has endowed us with certain inalienable rights, the first of [which] is the right to life. Life is extremely important. The Dred Scott decision [in] 1857, when the U.S. Supreme Court declared that blacks should not have personhood. Then you have the Supreme Court [in] 1973 do the same thing with the unborn does not have personhood. [That] should strike a chord with African Americans, and for many of them it does. Secondarily, the traditional family is critical. Marriage should be between a man and a woman only, and many African Americans believe that. Many people, of course, of all races and creeds believe that. It's the very foundation stone of society. Once you begin to unravel that and begin to change that, you begin to change the entire nature of the human experience and the entire nature of a society -- for the worse, in our view. And so for particularly those who go to church, these issues resonate, along with others. But what's different about a black, let's say, evangelical Christian in general, as opposed to a white evangelical Christian in general is that with whites, typically those two issues are the cutting stone. For African Americans, economic issues are also ranked as high as those, and justice issues. That's really the reason why most African Americans tended to be more Democratic than Republican, because of that. But once you start to level that playing field, so to speak, I think you'll see, again, more African Americans will look to move over to Republicans or certainly become independent.

Q: Some African-American Republicans I've talked with still feel problems of racism within the party. They say the party structures aren't really as open as they'd like to see. Has that been your experience as well?

A: I think you have that problem in both parties. Democrats surely have that problem. I mean, why is it, again, with 90 percent support for decades, why is it there's not been a black Democrat Secretary of State? How come there's not been a black Democrat Secretary of Defense? How come the major issues of our government -- with 90 percent support, how come there's not been a black Democrat Vice President? You see? I think that racism's got something to do with some of that in the Democratic Party, and I think both parties have got problems with it. People of color have to deal with that issue. We're not the majority, and it's pervasive everywhere. Those who take the position that racism no longer exists don't know what they're talking about. The people who say that are people who are not people of color. Now, it's not as bad as it used to be. It's a lot better than it used to be, but it's still there, and it still has an impact on our society.

Q: What kind of impact do you hope your candidacy will have?

A: My candidacy, I think, will have a national impact for a number of reasons. I have to do something for the people of the state of Michigan, because obviously they need better representation than they're getting, no question. We need to have nationally someone that understands how economic development really happens in the world, particularly in the global economic environment that we are [in] today. We have to cut our tax rates, we have to simplify our tax code, we have to stop killing each other with the regulatory burdens that we have and the litigious nature of our society. And we have to have a society that you have people of all races and creeds and color[s] at every single level of society to help the society be able to be as pluralistic as it needs to be, because it is actively changing. Then from someone who is strongly prolife, pro-traditional family, someone who strongly believes in the Judeo-Christian ethic, again, that will also help us stay the course that this country was founded upon and became the greatest nation on the face of the earth. I think our candidacy has an impact across the board, and it opens up the dialogue for African Americans and other people of color to look at both parties, which is in, I think, everyone's interests. Competition is healthy.

Q: Is it difficult to balance being a megachurch minister and being a candidate?

A: No. For me, my entire life has always been wearing multiple hats at the same time. I have always done that. I've always been a person who's been able to do more than one thing at a time and do it relatively well. I've been blessed to be able to say that and do that. And so for me, I have great staff, and congregations that I pastor are people who have been around for a while. They understand that there is a call in my life into all types of realms and not just within the confines of the four walls of our church building. What we believe in, the scripture teaches, anyway, what Jesus told us was to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world, not just being inside the four walls. You should have an impact wherever you go and throughout the entire world, and what I believe my calling in life is, is to have an impact everywhere.

Q: It used to be that conservative Christians focused a lot inside the church. They did mission work, but they were not as involved in the broader culture, particularly politics. Many even thought politics was kind of a dirty business. How do you approach that?

A: The founding of this country, if you look at its history, was founded primarily by people we would classify as evangelical Christians. Twenty-four of the original 56 signers of the Declaration [of Independence] held theology degrees. If you look at the laws of all the states, when you're talking about the 13 states, or others as we continued to expand, all of them talked about God in the public arena, and usually ministers were very prominent and involved in that. We've had a President of the United States that was a minister, served in the United States Senate, served in the House. The first black United States Senator was the Reverend Hiram Rhodes Revels. It was only that period after World War II up through about the 1970s where, in my view, the lie was sold to the American public that there is supposed to be this separation of church and state, meaning that God is supposed to be completely divorced of everything, out of the public sphere. That's a new thing in American politics. The Bible was the textbook for school, of schoolchildren for almost 200 years in this country. So what's happening is you're seeing Christians return back to the arena that they never should have left in the first place.

Q: What do you hope that will bring to the country, when people like you and others do just that?

A: Just bring the country back to its roots, back to the ethics this country was founded upon. Today Washington is a place of career politicians run by special interests, and the special interests, with the career politicians, have caused our politics to be corrupted in this country. Moved us away from the things that made this country great -- hard work, expecting to help other people, doing things fairly and honestly. We've moved away from that, and our view of the world is affected by the type of politics and politicians that we have today.

The Founding Fathers did not envision that you have lifetime politicians that would be there and would have the type of system we have today. They expected there would be citizens like myself and yourself and your viewers, people who have been very successful in whatever their fields may be, but farmers and doctors and ministers and lawyers and other disciplines, all come together to bring their varying views to the public sphere for the good of the entirety of the country. We've got to return to that. I think the special interests and the career politicians are harming our country. We need people more like myself and others.

Q: Let's talk about the anniversary of the Pentecostal movement. How far has the movement come in the last 100 years?

A: Astounding. I was on an aircraft about, maybe a month ago, and I was reading THE ECONOMIST magazine, which is certainly not, as far as I understand, a Christian magazine, it's certainly not a conservative magazine, any of that. And in this article it said that America was affecting the world with two streams. One it was talking about [was] the Hollywood culture. But the second one was particularly, it said, Pentecostal Christians were shaping and changing the world coming out of America. They were the fastest-growing segment in the entire world, over half a billion growing at an astonishing rate. Well, that little place on Azusa Street, that little dank and dark room, has really blossomed out to affect the entire globe. And those people who were once called Holy Rollers and other names not so charitable today are mainstream and getting the job done and being emulated by people in other institutions of all types around the world.

Q: As you mentioned, there was a time when Pentecostals and Charismatics often felt looked down upon by outsiders. Has that changed today?

A: As I said, they've become now more mainstream. Obviously, when you go back to William Seymour's day, God used an African American, particularly in 1906, to be the leader, and, of course, so many people initially were folks that would be classified as the bottom of the economic ladder. They were considered to be ignorant, and you understand all of the other things that would be said about them, but today the Pentecostal movement is comprised of people at the highest echelons of government, education, science, you name it discipline. A great deal of the ministers there are highly educated individuals who believe that the experience Jesus talked about in Acts 1:8, "You shall receive power of the Holy Ghost that has come upon you," is something that they receive, accept, live their lives by, and teach others around the world to do so. And that's why THE ECONOMIST magazine said what it says about the impact that it's having around the world.

Q: What do you think the appeal is?

A: Changing the lives of so many people. My church is ostensibly the largest church in my state, you know, 22,000 members. Well, the church changes lives. What builds churches is not television, radio, billboards, direct mail, any of the advertising gimmicks. What builds churches is that someone's life has been changed and revolutionized. And there's someone else that they love, that they want them to have the same experience. And so it's because of the power, dynamism of the message and the changing of the lives that has produced such a growth and that will continue, because you're talking about the power of God.

Q: In those early days at Azusa Street, the movement was led, as you said, by an African-American man, William Seymour. It was very diverse. Then there were some divisions. Where would you characterize things today in terms of racial reconciliation?

A: I'd like to see more. Whether you're talking about Pentecostal/Charismatic or more in the so-called mainstream churches, 10 to 12 o'clock on Sunday mornings is still the most segregated hour in America, and that should not be the case. It troubles me that it is. And you will see African Americans go to another individual's church that is of the majority, but you still don't have enough of the majority that is prepared to allow someone who is not white to be their leader. And that's changing. I mean, my church used to be an all-black church -- even 10 years ago it was a completely, all-black church. Not by design. Never for me. But it's been in the last 10 years that it's become integrated. Now I have hundreds of folks from different backgrounds and creeds who are part of us now, and more every day. So we're starting to -- it's starting to break down. I don't believe heaven will have a black section, a Latino section, a white section, or any other section. We're all going to be together. And I hate to quote Rodney King, but can't we all get along? I mean, it's time to do that, and it's just starting to happen, and I thank God it is.

Q: Some people have observed that the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches seem to be further ahead than some others. Do you think that's the case?

A: I do think that's the case. It's not as much as I would like to see it, but it is happening, and it's happening regularly. The walls are being broken down; people are beginning to care less about what the skin color is of whoever is being used by God as the leader. And it's happening daily. I've been part of movements that nobody cares about anyone's racial background, and today you see things like people marrying of different races. Nobody even thinks anything about it. The issue is not the color of their skin. The issue is where's your stand on the things of God. And my church is an example of that. I've been doing that and marrying people like that and seeing that and I talk about it, I promote it. Racism is not just a white issue. Blacks can be just as racist as any whites can be. And blacks and white can be racist against Asians, and Asians can be racist against others. I mean, it's part of the human condition, and what the love of God is about is melting all that away.

Q: We've talked about the mainstreaming of the Pentecostal movement. Are there downsides that come with being mainstream?

A: Oh, absolutely. You become a larger target. You become more scrutinized. Anytime you seem to have some of the power that ostensibly comes along with that, then you're going to wind up having some divisions among yourselves, and they are a lot more magnified because the stakes are higher. When you are a little movement on the street in Azusa in California [in] 1906 and everybody there is from every creed and color, nobody cares. When you are that type of person and you affect presidencies and you affect policies that affect the entire world, it becomes an entirely different matter. People begin to wonder what we're thinking, what we're doing, where we're going, what sinister motives we may have -- all the other craziness, you know, that comes along with it. So, you know, there's no question the target's on our back. That comes along with anyone in leadership.

Q: Are there internal challenges, inherent dangers?

A: Sure. The big thing that you have to watch out for is that you don't become too comfortable in what you're doing, forget what your real mission is, whatever that may be. And make sure that you stay true to that and don't change and don't lose your intensity about that. One thing about me, I am highly intense. Anyone who knows me will tell you that. What I believe is what I believe, and I will die doing what I believe, if nobody else comes along. And you've got to have that kind of focus if you're going to continue to be successful in carrying out [anything], whether it's the mission for the kingdom of God dealing with the public sphere or any other sphere. The people who are most effective are the people who are most singularly focused.

Q: What are the biggest challenges that face the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement over the next 100 years or even the next 10 years?

A: Watering themselves down and becoming too mainstream. Losing the very character which made them successful.

Q: You mentioned feeling a call to the ministry. Do you feel a call to politics as well?

A: I believe that there's a plan of God for everyone's life. Whether or not they follow that plan or don't follow that plan or even know there is such a plan -- that's another question. I certainly believe that my steps as I prayerfully get before God and seek God's will for my life -- I believe the steps, my steps are ordered of the Lord in this sense, that I know I'm called to minister to the public good, to help everyone that I could help at every level and have an impact in shaping my nation. And to, of course, get the gospel out around the world. That's the commission that Jesus gave all Christians. So from that standpoint and that viewpoint, yes. I've known that I was called to the ministry since I was seven years old. Didn't want that call and didn't receive it for a while, but it's always been my life to be involved in that, and I see being involved in the public arena [as] just an extension of that ministry.

Q: How has it affected your own faith, your own spirituality, to get involved in politics?

A: Hasn't affected my faith at all. If anything, it's probably made me more driven, because who you are is a result of what faith you have. Whether you have no faith in God, you've got faith in something. You may have faith in humanism, faith in what they taught you in science class, faith in a university education or what your parents taught you, faith in the Bible, faith in the Qur'an, faith in the Old Testament. But everyone is a result of all the experiences and teaching [they've] had in the past. Sometimes I get asked a question by media people, you know, "Are you going to impose your religion on - " you know. Who you are is a result of everything. I mean, I'm a graduate of the University of Michigan. Nobody asked me if the liberal professors I had at Michigan, am I going to take the view of what they taught me mindlessly and then use that in the public arena? It's all nonsense. You know, who you are is what you are, and there are values that I believe. I will bring those values to the United States Senate. And I suspect that Ted Kennedy's values he's bringing there for 60-plus years, and all the places that he's been, and so to say that somehow you can divorce yourself from your values or that they should be divorced in order to go into government, to me, is absolute silliness. Who you are is who you are.