Visit Your Local PBS Station PBS Home PBS Home Programs A-Z TV Schedules Watch Video Donate Shop PBS Search PBS
Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly -- An online companion to the weekly television news program
Keyword Search
Topic Index Stories by Week
Home
Current Stories
Headlines
Election Coverage
Calendar
TV Schedule
Newsletter
Subscribe or unsubscribe to the E-mail Newsletter, or edit your preferences.
The Series
For Teachers
Resources
Feedback

INTERVIEW:
Lee Strobel
May 12, 2006    Episode no. 937
Read stories by week: 
Go
Read more of Kim Lawton's interview about THE DA VINCI CODE with Lee Strobel.

Q: What are your concerns about the Da Vinci Code?

A: I think people are concerned because of the challenges that it raises, not because they have any belief that the substance of the allegations are true, but because there are people who are believing these allegations. One-third of all Canadians who've read the book now believe that there are descendents of Jesus walking among us today. Fifty-three percent of Americans who've read the book say the book has been helpful in their personal spiritual growth and understanding. We are seeing evidence that even though the book is a novel, though it is fiction, there are certain claims in the book that Dan Brown asserts are true, and unfortunately there are some people believing them even though ultimately they don't hold water historically.

Q: What are some of those things? What troubles you most from a theological standpoint?

A: There are several things that trouble me. Number one: the claim that you really can't trust history. The winners write history, and therefore it's always skewed and one-sided and can't be trusted. Number two: the four Gospels that we find in the New Testament are not historically reliable; there are more reliable gospels that were excluded from the New Testament. Number three: that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene; they had a child named Sarah; their bloodline continues today and that through history the Christian church has suppressed women. And then ultimately, number four: the allegation that Jesus never claimed to be the son of God, nobody believed he was God until in the fourth century when the Roman emperor Constantine deified him for his own nefarious purposes. I think those allegations are really important, because they cut to the core of Christianity. These aren't peripheral issues; these cut right to the core of what we believe as Christians.

Q: THE DA VINCI CODE is, frankly, not the first place where people have raised questions about how the various books of the Bible came to be chosen for inclusion. Why is this more troubling?

A: Certainly the historical evidence for the reliability of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John far exceeds the historic reliability of the so-called Gnostic Gospels, which were written in the second, third and fourth centuries, which really don't have the same kind of historical trustworthiness that the four Gospels in the Bible have. I think people get confused when they are lumped together and the claim is made that somehow they present equal claims in terms of the reliability of what they present. We can have confidence as Christians that the four Gospels in the Bible can be trusted. I don't have that same confidence that these later Gospels which, if you read them, just on the face of them do not make the same kinds of claims with the same kind of authority that the four Gospels that we have in the New Testament do.

Q: And the questions about Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Christianity has traditionally taught that Jesus was fully human and fully God. Would it make a difference if he had indeed been married? Would it affect what he did and taught while he was here?

A: Well, certainly I think the first issue is: is there any historical evidence that he was married? There's not one scintilla of reliable historical data that suggests that he was. There's not a serious scholar in the world who would present convincing evidence that Jesus actually had been married, so it's a very speculative question. On the other hand, theologically, would it have made a difference? Well, God created marriage. There's nothing wrong with marriage, but I think when you have the sinless son of God in some sort of relationship of that kind with a human being, I think there's theological issues raised there, but even more so if they were to have children. Well, what's Jesus going to do, say to his son, Jacob, "I'm fully God and fully man, and you're like 78 percent God and 67 percent man, and your child is going to be 42 percent God and 28 percent man"? It raises all kinds of theological problems. The important thing is that we don't have to address those really, because there is no compelling evidence that Jesus ever was married.

Q: Talk a little more about THE DA VINCI CODE'S suggestion that Jesus wasn't really considered the son of God. What impact does that have on the ultimate Christian message?

A: This allegation that Jesus was somehow never considered the son of God until the fourth century is just historically absurd. Not only do we have the four Gospels in the Bible -- go back to the first one, go back to Mark and the claim is made by Jesus that he is the son of God; people recognize him as such. Go back to the writings of Paul, some of which predate the writings of the Gospels. You have assertions in Philippians 2 that [Jesus] was in the very nature of God, or Colossians that says he is the image of the invisible God. These are early creeds and hymns of the church that affirmed his deity. And we have early church fathers in the late first century and the second century that also affirm that Jesus is the son of God, so the idea that this was somehow a concept that they came up with at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD just flies in the face of a mountain of historical evidence that shows he was considered the son of God hundreds of years earlier.

Q: What do you make of all the theological conversations that THE DA VINCI CODE has prompted?

A: I think it's a good thing that people are becoming spiritually curious. I think it's a tremendous opportunity for Christians to engage with them and say, "Wow, your curiosity about Jesus has been piqued. You now have some questions about who he was and what he claimed and what he did. That's a good thing. Let's discuss it, let's get into a dialogue." That's why one of the things I did instead of just doing a book about it -- we did a discussion guide with a dvd so people could get together and offer their opinions and debate these things among themselves and listen to some interviews with experts who can kind of guide us in terms of what history actually shows. I think it could be a positive thing that people engage in these sorts of dialogues, and ultimately I think it will accrue to the benefit of Christianity, because I think we are going to find a lot of people who have been turned on to studying history, and frankly history is the friend to Christianity.

Q: But why are so many people so disposed to suspect what the Church teaches, to believe that some massive con has been perpetrated by the Church?

A: Well, I think there are some issues why people are really believing this stuff and that this book has become such a phenomenon. Number one: people love conspiracy theories and the bigger the conspiracy the better. There are people who think Oliver Stone's version of the assassination of JFK is gospel truth. So people love conspiracy theories. Number two: there are a lot of women who feel alienated from the church, and so the feminist themes of THE DA VINCI CODE resonate with them. I think people see the Church as being a secretive institution. They've seen scandals that have broken out among some Catholic priests and some Protestant televangelists, and it makes it easy for them to believe underneath this surface that there might be conspiracies lurking, and, frankly, the Church has done a lousy job of helping people understand Church history, of teaching them theology. In the first four centuries, when a person would become a follower of Jesus, they were not allowed to join the Church for three years, and during that time they were educated on not just what Christians believed but why they believe it. These days we don't help our people understand why it is we believe what we believe, and consequently when THE DA VINCI CODE comes up, and these allegations are raised, people tend to believe them because maybe they have some residual skepticism about the Church due to these scandals, due to the secretive nature of the institution itself.

Continue to top of next colum
Tools:
E-Mail this article
Resources
Q: What should Christians and the Church be doing about that?

A: The Bible tells us in 1 Peter 3:15 that if you are a Christian you always need to be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. And so we are told in Scripture, let's be ready to engage people on these issues that come up. Questions are a good thing; doubts can be a good thing if they propel you toward investigating the truth. I like the trailer on THE DA VINCI CODE that says, "Seek the truth." I would just modify that a little bit and I would phrase it this way: "Seek the real truth." Christianity has nothing to be afraid of from people who thoroughly investigate the truth behind it. I was an atheist. I was a skeptic for most of my life, and it was my wife's conversion to Christianity that prompted me to begin asking questions. Did Jesus every claim to be the son of God? Did he ever prove it by returning from the dead? Is there any historical evidence for that? I spent two years of my life systematically investigating the historical credibility of Christianity and other faith systems until I came to the conclusion that the evidence of history points powerfully towards Jesus Christ not only claiming to be the son of God, but proving it by returning from the dead.

Q: Some Church leaders are urging Christians to boycott the movie so as not to encourage Hollywood to make these kinds of movies. You seem to be encouraging Christians to see it so they can have a dialogue about it. What's your approach?

A: I can understand Christians who want to boycott the movie, picket it, ignore it and wish it would go away. I understand that, because I was indignant when I read the book and its allegations that are so far-fetched against Christianity. But I just don't think that's the most fruitful approach to take. We are not going to stop this movie. We are not going to stop this book. I would rather see us engage with it. I would rather see us engage in dialogue with people who have seen it and who have legitimate questions raised by the book and movie. Let's talk to them, let's ask them their opinions, [and] let's engage in a conversation about this stuff. I would say for Christians, if they are thinking of going to this film just for their own entertainment, I would say don't go. Why would you want to put money in the pocket of Hollywood and reward them for producing what is essentially anti-Christian propaganda? However, having said that I want to add that I'm going to see the movie, and I would say any Christian whose motivation is to engage with their spiritually curious friends who are going to see the movie and to get into a conversation about these very important issues, I think it's probably important to see the movie, because the first question you're going to get, if you try to talk to someone about THE DA VINCI CODE is, "Have you read the book?" or "Have you seen the movie?" And if you say no, then you are automatically branded as one of these know-nothing Christians who criticize things that they don't know anything about. I think that the ultimate spiritual condition of human beings is more important than whether or not we reward Hollywood. If there are people going to this film and being confused spiritually, there's a lot at stake here, and I think it is worth my time and my effort to be knowledgeable about the film and knowledgeable about the book so I can have a meaningful conversation and hopefully help bring people to the real Jesus.

Q: Is there a conversation to be had with Hollywood as well?

A: Hollywood is going to do what Hollywood is going to do. I think they are driven by the profit motive [and] often about ideology, and I think I would love to see them say there's a huge reservoir of interest in this country on spiritual matters. Look at "The Passion of the Christ," the box office that it did. Eighty percent of Americans at least make the claim that they are Christians, so a huge percentage of people are interested in this kind of material. I would hope Hollywood would see that positive films that explore in a legitimate way many of the issues involving spirituality -- that those can be successful financially, and they can also serve a social good. But I know Hollywood, having myself a television show on a network in Hollywood, understanding what it's like to pitch a show about spiritual matters to a network and getting the kind of response that we got. I understand that there is still a lot of resistance, still a lot of skepticism in Hollywood. I think it's going to take some time before there is a track record of positive films like "The Passion of the Christ," like the Narnia film, that tell Hollywood that there's not only profit to be made, but there is important spiritual content to be delivered, and I would hope they would take that seriously.

Q: This is, after all, just a movie, just entertainment. Are people overreacting about the impact it may or may not have?

A: I don't think people are overreacting, because Dan Brown claims this is more than a novel, and if you open the book he lists on one of the first pages on the book a series of so-called facts that he asserts are historically true. Even though things like the Priory of Sion, this organization that he says is founded in the year 1099 and through the centuries, according to documents discovered in the French National Library, has leaders like Leonardo da Vinci and Victor Hugo and other famous people. And he claims that's historically true. And yet when we investigate it what do we find? We find that the Priory of Sion was founded in 1956 by a convicted conman named Pierre Plantard, that he manufactured phony documents, he counterfeited them to create this phony history of this organization, and he planted these documents in the French National Library and when they were discovered people thought, "Oh, my goodness, here is a secret organization. Why did it exist? Well, Dan Brown tells us to protect the secret that Jesus had been married to Mary Magdalene; they had children and his bloodline continues today. So, here we have things that are asserted as being true by Dan Brown even though they don't check out when we investigate them. Dan Brown himself said to Elizabeth Vargas on ABC that he became a believer, that he was a doubter when he first investigated this stuff for his book. He looked at this whole Mary Magdalene issue and became convinced that indeed she was married to Jesus [and] he did have a child. He's making more than just a claim that this was just pure fiction. He's saying there is a historical backbone to it, and yet historians, secular and Christian, who investigate the claims that he makes find that they don't withstand scrutiny.

Q: What advice would you give to people who see this movie?

A: I would say seek the real truth. There are lots of materials out there. I did a book called EXPLORING THE DA VINCI CODE. There are many other books that are written to try to set the record straight [and] interviews with scholars, secular and Christian, who will debunk the allegations made by Dan Brown. I think it's a positive thing if, indeed, this does generate curiosity among people because, as I say, Christianity has nothing to fear from history. Christianity is an historical religion. It's not just a collection of amorphous beliefs, but it claims certain things in history: That Jesus actually lived at a certain point in time. That he did certain things. That he said certain things. That he was crucified under Pontius Pilate. That he returned from the dead and thus proved that he is the son of God. Those are historical issues. Are they true of not? We can investigate those as I did when I was an atheist and come to a conclusion whether or not they are supported by the historical evidence. I think if this book and this motion picture encourage people to go on that type of journey, then I have confidence as a Christian that they are going to, ultimately, if they will pursue it with an open mind, they are ultimately going to meet the real Jesus.

Did you like this story? How can we improve our program or Web site?
Resources






TOP