Read more of Kim Lawton's interview about THE DA VINCI CODE with Lee Strobel.
Q: What are your concerns about the Da Vinci Code?
A: I think people are concerned because of the challenges that it raises, not because they have any belief that the substance of the allegations are true, but because there are people who are believing these allegations. One-third of all Canadians who've read the book now believe that there are descendents of Jesus walking among us today. Fifty-three percent of Americans who've read the book say the book has been helpful in their personal spiritual growth and understanding. We are seeing evidence that even though the book is a novel, though it is fiction, there are certain claims in the book that Dan Brown asserts are true, and unfortunately there are some people believing them even though ultimately they don't hold water historically.
Q: What are some of those things? What troubles you most from a theological standpoint?
A: There are several things that trouble me. Number one: the claim that you really can't trust history. The winners write history, and therefore it's always skewed and one-sided and can't be trusted. Number two: the four Gospels that we find in the New Testament are not historically reliable; there are more reliable gospels that were excluded from the New Testament. Number three: that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene; they had a child named Sarah; their bloodline continues today and that through history the Christian church has suppressed women. And then ultimately, number four: the allegation that Jesus never claimed to be the son of God, nobody believed he was God until in the fourth century when the Roman emperor Constantine deified him for his own nefarious purposes. I think those allegations are really important, because they cut to the core of Christianity. These aren't peripheral issues; these cut right to the core of what we believe as Christians.
Q: THE DA VINCI CODE is, frankly, not the first place where people have raised questions about how the various books of the Bible came to be chosen for inclusion. Why is this more troubling?
A: Certainly the historical evidence for the reliability of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John far exceeds the historic reliability of the so-called Gnostic Gospels, which were written in the second, third and fourth centuries, which really don't have the same kind of historical trustworthiness that the four Gospels in the Bible have. I think people get confused when they are lumped together and the claim is made that somehow they present equal claims in terms of the reliability of what they present. We can have confidence as Christians that the four Gospels in the Bible can be trusted. I don't have that same confidence that these later Gospels which, if you read them, just on the face of them do not make the same kinds of claims with the same kind of authority that the four Gospels that we have in the New Testament do.
Q: And the questions about Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Christianity has traditionally taught that Jesus was fully human and fully God. Would it make a difference if he had indeed been married? Would it affect what he did and taught while he was here?
A: Well, certainly I think the first issue is: is there any historical evidence that he was married? There's not one scintilla of reliable historical data that suggests that he was. There's not a serious scholar in the world who would present convincing evidence that Jesus actually had been married, so it's a very speculative question. On the other hand, theologically, would it have made a difference? Well, God created marriage. There's nothing wrong with marriage, but I think when you have the sinless son of God in some sort of relationship of that kind with a human being, I think there's theological issues raised there, but even more so if they were to have children. Well, what's Jesus going to do, say to his son, Jacob, "I'm fully God and fully man, and you're like 78 percent God and 67 percent man, and your child is going to be 42 percent God and 28 percent man"? It raises all kinds of theological problems. The important thing is that we don't have to address those really, because there is no compelling evidence that Jesus ever was married.
Q: Talk a little more about THE DA VINCI CODE'S suggestion that Jesus wasn't really considered the son of God. What impact does that have on the ultimate Christian message?
A: This allegation that Jesus was somehow never considered the son of God until the fourth century is just historically absurd. Not only do we have the four Gospels in the Bible -- go back to the first one, go back to Mark and the claim is made by Jesus that he is the son of God; people recognize him as such. Go back to the writings of Paul, some of which predate the writings of the Gospels. You have assertions in Philippians 2 that [Jesus] was in the very nature of God, or Colossians that says he is the image of the invisible God. These are early creeds and hymns of the church that affirmed his deity. And we have early church fathers in the late first century and the second century that also affirm that Jesus is the son of God, so the idea that this was somehow a concept that they came up with at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD just flies in the face of a mountain of historical evidence that shows he was considered the son of God hundreds of years earlier.
Q: What do you make of all the theological conversations that THE DA VINCI CODE has prompted?
A: I think it's a good thing that people are becoming spiritually curious. I think it's a tremendous opportunity for Christians to engage with them and say, "Wow, your curiosity about Jesus has been piqued. You now have some questions about who he was and what he claimed and what he did. That's a good thing. Let's discuss it, let's get into a dialogue." That's why one of the things I did instead of just doing a book about it -- we did a discussion guide with a dvd so people could get together and offer their opinions and debate these things among themselves and listen to some interviews with experts who can kind of guide us in terms of what history actually shows. I think it could be a positive thing that people engage in these sorts of dialogues, and ultimately I think it will accrue to the benefit of Christianity, because I think we are going to find a lot of people who have been turned on to studying history, and frankly history is the friend to Christianity.
Q: But why are so many people so disposed to suspect what the Church teaches, to believe that some massive con has been perpetrated by the Church?
A: Well, I think there are some issues why people are really believing this stuff and that this book has become such a phenomenon. Number one: people love conspiracy theories and the bigger the conspiracy the better. There are people who think Oliver Stone's version of the assassination of JFK is gospel truth. So people love conspiracy theories. Number two: there are a lot of women who feel alienated from the church, and so the feminist themes of THE DA VINCI CODE resonate with them. I think people see the Church as being a secretive institution. They've seen scandals that have broken out among some Catholic priests and some Protestant televangelists, and it makes it easy for them to believe underneath this surface that there might be conspiracies lurking, and, frankly, the Church has done a lousy job of helping people understand Church history, of teaching them theology. In the first four centuries, when a person would become a follower of Jesus, they were not allowed to join the Church for three years, and during that time they were educated on not just what Christians believed but why they believe it. These days we don't help our people understand why it is we believe what we believe, and consequently when THE DA VINCI CODE comes up, and these allegations are raised, people tend to believe them because maybe they have some residual skepticism about the Church due to these scandals, due to the secretive nature of the institution itself.


