Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly . INTERVIEW . FRANKLIN GRAHAM . July 14, 2006

Read Kim Lawton's July 12, 2006 interview about North Korea with Franklin Graham:

Q: You have been there; you have a sense of the place. How dangerous do you think the situation is right now?

A: I think probably North Korea is the most dangerous place on the face of the earth right now. You've got a country that I feel is kind of backed up against a wall. I like to hunt, and I know if you ever back a dangerous animal up against a wall and don't give that animal a place to turn or to run, you've cornered him, he's going to come at you. And I just have a sense that with North Korea we may be kind of at that point with these people. We have to treat this very, very carefully. You don't want to get into a shooting war with these people. These are not like the Iraqis that are going to cut and run, where the army will just kind of fold in front of the American advance. These are people that will come at you wave upon wave, and millions of people could be killed. Not hundreds, not thousands, but millions. So, I really believe that we -- when I say we I'm talking about the United States of America -- we need to be extremely careful with this situation.

Q: And what in fact would you like to see the U.S. do? You have talked about dialogue. Is that where you think the answer lies?

Photo of Graham

A: I believe that the United States needs to talk one on one with the North Koreans, eyeball to eyeball. We have had our armies facing each other now for over fifty-some years. It's time that we talked to them face to face, and we got to find a way to resolve this. Now, the six-party talks -- I don't believe these are going to be successful. They haven't been successful up to this point. Now, here are some of the problems: [Do] all the people sitting around the table want to see the two Koreas united? And I would have to say no, they don't. Is it in the Chinese best interest for the two Koreas to be united? I don't think so. I think China would like to see the two Koreas separate, because if South Korea and North Korea got together, economically they would put a huge dent into the Chinese gross national product. If you take the technology and the science of the South with the cheap labor source in the North, it's going to hurt China economically. Same thing for Japan, same thing with Russia. So, if we're going to find a way to solve this thing, I think the United States of America is going to have to talk face to face with the North Koreans. Doesn't matter if we like them; we don't have to agree with them; but we need to talk to them face to face.

I go back in my memory to Nixon, when he went to China back in the early '70s with Kissinger, and they met Mao Tse-Tung, and Mao Tse-Tung is responsible for the greatest genocide in history -- sixty million Chinese people. He's responsible, and his government and his army [are] responsible for killing. They met face to face with Mao Tse-Tung, and as a result of that meeting the tensions between China and the United States began to fall, and we began to see cracks and doors that began to open. And, of course, it's the same government in China, it's the communist government that we're dealing with, but yet they have moderated considerably because we talked face to face. And I think with North Korea, I think that same strategy is probably, maybe, what we need to do.

Q: The U.S. government has been talking a lot about sanctions on North Korea as one solution. Is that a good idea?

A: In my opinion, I don't think sanctions work. They didn't work really with -- in Iraq. And pretty much there's sanctions right now against North Korea, and these are self-imposed sanctions by the North Koreans on themselves. They're pretty much isolated. I don't know how you can take North Korea and isolate it any more than its isolated today. I think sanctions -- I think this is probably just a joke.

Q: Are you concerned about the impact of sanctions on the people of North Korea, given the humanitarian situation there?

A: Well, we saw in Iraq -- and I was working in Iraq before the invasion of Iraq in this last war. From the first Gulf War till the beginning of the second Gulf War, we worked in Iraq with humanitarian work under Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein's lifestyle did not change. He, his family, his generals, those that were in power with the Baath party still had a significant lifestyle. But it's the people themselves that suffered. It was the individual people. Hospitals didn't have medicine. There was less food in the stores. It hurt the people, and I think whatever sanctions, what little we may be able to bring to bear on North Korea, it's just going to end up hurting the people worse. It's not going to hurt the army, and I don't think its going to hurt Kim Jong-Il and his family and his generals that support him.

Q: How is the humanitarian situation there? What is the situation for the majority of the people?

A: We have seen not the entire country, but we have seen good parts of it. We have worked with tuberculosis. This is a tremendous problem. We've put in an intensive care unit at the Red Cross hospital in Pyongyang. We have been able to -- two dental clinics that we have operated there. So, from that standpoint we have seen parts of the country. The hospitals are extremely poor, they are basically -- they're just not operating. If you go to a hospital you're going to go there to die, because the hospitals don't have medicine; they don't have equipment, just basic equipment to help the people. It's very sad. When you go out into the countryside, the roads are terrible; the people are working with hand tools in the fields. It's not mechanized like you see in the rest of the world. This is a very primitive society. But remember, these are human beings, these are people. The North Koreans -- we talk about the North Koreans like they just dropped out of Mars or something. These are human beings, these are people, and when you talk to them face to face, one on one, you realize that they have the same concerns that we have. They get up in the morning, they get dressed like we get dressed. They have concerns about their family, they have concerns about marriage, they have concerns about education, their children, all of these things that we have concerns about. There's a lot that we have in common.

The North Koreans, during the Second World War, fought the Japanese. They see that as a link with the United States. They see that we were together on that particular issue. I don't sense a hatred towards the United States. I sense a frustration with the North Koreans towards American policy towards them. I believe the North Koreans would like to find a way to get around this impasse, but they want to be respected. The North Koreans don't want to be bullied, they don't want to be treated with disrespect, and I find sometimes our diplomats -- and I'm grateful for our men and women that serve in foreign service -- but sometimes there's an arrogance with our diplomats, and they have a tendency to talk down, especially to smaller countries. And I think this is what happens from time to time as our diplomats talk to the North Koreans. We lecture them, we bully them and, you know, that doesn't go well. And I think we need to sit down and talk face to face and possibly just ask God for help, and as a minister of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, I believe we should ask God's help and approach it in that way.

Q: I understand that there's a Samaritan's Purse team headed back over to North Korea possibly next month. What kind of projects are you exploring for your ministry in the future there?

A: We have been working there for the last twelve years in the areas of TB, also in the area of dental [care]. We have a lot of spare parts going back in. We have two mobile dental vans that are right now in the country, and we are taking spare parts and supplies and equipment as it relates to those vans. The work that we're doing in North Korea is ongoing. And it's -- we have found the North Koreans basically keep their word. When they tell us that we can do something, basically they let us do that. Sometimes things change once you get into the country. Schedules don't work out quite the way you thought they might work out, but the work we have done with the North Koreans, they have let us pretty much do what they'd said they'd let us do, and we have found them to be tough negotiators. Very hard, but once they commit to something, we have found they've lived up pretty much to their end of the bargain.

Q: What kind of work do you hope to keep doing there with Samaritan's Purse, and what would you like to do in the future?

A: First, I would hope that we would be able to continue to help the people of North Korea, because they are suffering. This is a very poor country, and they need our help not just with tuberculosis, but I would like to help set up several hospitals in that country and equip them with modern equipment. One of the problems, though, is that whatever we set up, it takes staff to train the North Koreans on how to use that equipment, and it would take a fairly large staff to do that, and this is where we have problems with getting visas for a large group of people to go in and stay for a period of time to train the North Korean counterparts, and trying to get visas for them to come to this country for training. Certainly that is not easy. Very difficult.

But I would like to help them medically. We would like to be involved in more food distribution in the country, and of course I would hope that we would be able to present the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. We have asked North Korea for permission to build an international church in Pyongyang. We haven't been told no, but we haven't been told yes either. And we would like to build an international church so that diplomats and their families, as they go to North Korea, have a place to worship. Right now there's two official churches. There's a Protestant church and a Catholic church that are open, but these are controlled by the government, and really there's no place for the international community to worship in Pyongyang.

Q: Have you been invited to go back yourself?

A: Yes, I have. And so far I have not been able to work out a date when that would take place. We're looking at next year; they're wanting me to come this year, but instead we're going ahead with our work, but I'll probably go back sometime next year.

Q: I know when you were there, when your father was there, and even now Rick Warren is heading over there, I think, next week, there are always concerns raised that people are being used, that the government uses high-profile people like yourselves in order to say they really do have religious freedom. What kind of moral factors do you weigh when you try to make a decision whether or not to go, knowing that in fact you might be used?

A: I don't worry about being used if it's for taking a chance for peace, let's put it that way. If my father, myself, someone else going can help the dialogue and help to bring peace between these two countries, a better understanding between the United States and the DPRK [Democratic People's Republic of Korea], I think it's worth doing. I think that's worth the risk of possibly being used. They may want to use me for propaganda, whatever, that's fine. I want to use that opportunity to try and present the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to the North Koreans, and wherever, whatever meeting I've been in with whatever leadership -- the foreign minister, the minister of health, different ones like that -I've been able to share my faith with them. First of all, I want the North Koreans to know that Christians are not their enemies. Christians are commanded by God to support those that are in authority over them. We are not a threat to the communists. We are not a threat to the North Koreans. We are told to subject ourselves to those that are in authority over us. So, I want to convey that to the government so that they understand that as Christians we are good citizens and productive citizens and that probably the best citizens in North Korea are the Christians. And the North Korean Christian church has suffered. They have been persecuted over the years. The church is very small in the North, and I hope that our influence in North Korea has helped the church.

Q: Do you think religious leaders perhaps have a role to play, that they can do things, accomplish things that the government can't?

A: I think in the last twelve years since we've been involved, absolutely. We've been able to go into North Korea when others can't go into North Korea. We've been able to talk to North Korean leadership when others aren't talking to the North Korean leadership. So, yes, I think we can play a role. But I want to encourage the president. I want to encourage this administration, those in Congress that we need to talk to the North Koreans face to face, period. Eyeball to eyeball. And there is a lot that can be accomplished if we simply just do that.

Q: Some observers have suggested that President Bush has a faith-based foreign policy that's in some way engineered by evangelicals. But you are breaking ranks with the administration on this. Are evangelicals concerned about the Bush administration foreign policy on different fronts?

A: Oh, I don't know about that. I don't speak for the evangelical community. I'm not a spokesperson for them. I'm just a preacher of the Gospel who happens to have gone to North Korea, that happens to have worked in North Korea and has seen some of the problems firsthand in North Korea, who believes the only way we can resolve this is through prayer, with God's help, and then talking with the North Koreans face to face. I think that's extremely important. We need a dialogue, period. Without that dialogue, this policy is just going to stay drifting in this diplomatic sea. We need to find a way to get some wind to the sails and get this thing moving forward. It's just not going anywhere right now. And I think the Bush administration sees this; I think they're frustrated with it. They're doing everything they can except talking to the North Koreans, so let's talk to them.

I'm not breaking ranks with the president. I'm encouraging the president to change his strategy just a little bit. If he could send one of his high-ranking people from the State Department, I think at some point Condi -- Dr. Rice needs to go to North Korea sometime in the next two years. I would love to see President Bush just drop what he's doing someday and just get on a plane and go there and sit down and talk to Kim Jong-Il face to face and shake hands and invite him to come to this country, and let him get on a train and go from San Francisco to New York, and let him see it from one end to the other. I think it would change his perspective of us.