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PERSPECTIVES:
Mideast Conflict
July 28, 2006 Episode no. 948
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BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: A conversation now about the ethics of the Israeli-Hezbollah war. What does the Jewish tradition say about what's happening? And what does Islam say? With me are two professors -- one Jewish, one Muslim -- who are friends and who serve together in a group seeking better Jewish-Muslim relations. Peter Ochs teaches Judaic studies at the University of Virginia, and Mehdi Aminrazavi is a professor of philosophy and religion at the University of Mary Washington, also in Virginia.
Welcome to you both. Peter, let me begin with you. In the Jewish tradition, what are the rules -- the moral rules -- about what is happening, how it began and how it's being fought?

Dr. PETER OCHS (Professor of Modern Judaic Studies, University of Virginia): Bob, this is a terrible and tragic event, the last few weeks, and there will be no clear, good side on this. We should point out that Israel is a secular state. Lebanon is a secular state. The laws governing these events are secular. So the question what do religious ethics mean for religious Jews, Muslims, and Christians who live in Israel? What are their standards? I think the standard is to be ethical, is to serve God -- the God of Abraham, which all three people serve. And to act ethically is to protect the image of God in others. The Jewish position on the war is if someone is seeking to destroy the image of God, that is, to murder, we must stop that person from doing that. And that's called self-defensive war.
ABERNETHY: Mehdi, how about in Islam?

Dr. MEHDI AMINRAZAVI: (Professor of Philosophy and Religion, University of Mary Washington): That's an identical position in Islam. Muslims are allowed to resist in two cases: when it is an act of self defense, and when it is in defense of the community, "ummah." And ironically, perhaps, the Hezbollah feels that they're doing exactly that.
ABERNETHY: Well, how do you justify -- so that's the justification of the raid into Israel?
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: They don't see it as a separate incident. They see it as a continuous struggle for survival. We can't separate these as this raid as opposed to that raid.
ABERNETHY: Now in both traditions, then, killing unarmed civilians in war would be forbidden, right?
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Absolutely.
ABERNETHY: And yet that is going on now on both sides. Peter, how does Judaism justify all the civilian casualties, as you go after Hezbollah?

Dr. OCHS: Once again, when Jewish ethics faces such horrible issues we can't expect to come out with a position that says saintly behavior/evil behavior. In between the two is the case of what's called "lifeboat ethics." In this case, where both options are bad, which one do we choose? And the one chosen in this case is should a murderer, God forbid, hold a hostage and fire at one of us, he's trying to destroy the image of God in us. It's the hostage's obligation to interrupt that behavior. And tragically, if the hostage fails, the one pointed at has the right to defend himself.
ABERNETHY: And in Islam, Mehdi, how do you justify lobbing rockets into IsraelÖ
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Well, PalestiniansÖ
ABERNETHY: Öwith all the, let me say, with lots of civilian casualties?
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. They, again, they see it as part of self-defense, just as various Israeli incursions for the last half a century has left hundreds and hundreds of so-called collateral damage, even though they have precision-guided bombs. Palestinians fight with what they have, which are essentially very unprecise weapons.
Dr. OCHS: But you and I aren't defending that, are we?
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: No, no, no.
Dr. OCHS: We're religious thinkersÖ

Dr. AMINRAZAVI: No, no. Absolutely. Right, right.
Dr. OCHS: We understand the religious basis for self-defense.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Right, right.
Dr. OCHS: We don't necessarily attack our brethren verbally...
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Sure.
Dr. OCHS: ...for being unethical.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Sure.
Dr. OCHS: But I assume you and I are profoundly troubled...
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Oh, absolutely.
Dr. OCHS: ...by the collateral damage.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Absolutely, absolutely. It's unconscionable to have that. We simply must not. But the real point is, at the heart of it this is not a religious war. And so the behavior of either side is not in accordance to the principles of Judaism and Islam.
This is a war, despite what seems to be the case on the surface, about what most wars are about. It's about land. It's about property.
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It's about domination, money, power. And so that's why the behavior on either side of the aisle does not correspond to traditional Jewish or Islamic ethics.
Dr. OCHS: But then religion could be a source of, ironically, of help here rather than a source of the war.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr. OCHS: I begin by suggesting that the religious people in Israel are religious Muslims, Jews and Christians. They all worship the God of Abraham. I don't know any international peace approach that brings profoundly religious Christians, Muslims and Jews together to share what they believe and to act in relation to what's going on. It isn't tried. We should try that.
ABERNETHY: Act to try to bring to bear their influence onÖ
Dr. OCHS: Their influence and their faith. Faith should be a condition for arguing the kind of ethics that you and I share.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Exactly.
Dr. OCHS: And it's not happening.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Exactly, exactly, exactly.
ABERNETHY: But what -- a religious summit meeting?
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Well, the attempts that have taken place in -- the ambience is so poisonous that even the well-intentioned efforts by those few whom I know have failed. And so that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but I'm all for it.
Dr. OCHS: And also here in the United States, where there isn't a bad ambience.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Right, right.
Dr. OCHS: There's no reason why church sources...
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Absolutely.
Dr. OCHS: ...synagogues and mosques can't come together...
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr. OCHS: ...and share.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Absolutely, absolutely. I think I can speak for both of us. We definitely promote public discourse of Christian, Jewish and Muslim ethics.
ABERNETHY: How, in this situation with Israel and Hezbollah -- how do they see each other? Do they see each other as enemies?
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: The demonization process is very much true, unfortunately. Yes, they do.
ABERNETHY: But?
Dr. OCHS: I would put it this way, Bob. When I defend myself justifiably against a murderer and, God forbid, have to kill him, that may be justified but I get reduced by that. I get harder and colder. I think both these peoples are being damaged by defending themselves.
ABERNETHY: Well, you're not suggesting that they not defend themselves?
Dr. OCHS: No. I'm suggesting that it isn't either/or. We need third parties to enter the environment. Not those two - third parties to enter the environment and change the conditions.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: There's a price you pay for self-defense, and there's a process of dehumanization that goes with that, and that does damage to your soul, as it were. And this is where a third party would be very effective.
Dr. OCHS: Which means ethics isn't enough.
ABERNETHY: And the third party is Jews, Muslims and Christians?

Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Christians, precisely, precisely. I think the Christian church can play a major, major role, as opposed to taking sides, which someÖ
Dr. OCHS: I'm glad you say that. I agree fully. The church, other than taking sides, can help Muslims and Jews return to the God they share.
Dr. AMINRAZAVI: Right, exactly.
ABERNETHY: Many thanks to both of you -- Professors Peter Ochs and Mehdi Aminrazavi.
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Related R & E Material:
Middle East Update, February 3, 2006
Israel in Crisis, September 26, 2003
Seeds of Peace, August 22, 2003
Hearing the Music of Faith in a Dangerous Holy Place: Interview with Gershom Gorenberg, December 15, 2000
Middle East Unrest, October 2000
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Related Reading:
THE PROMISE OF SCRIPTURAL REASONING edited by David Ford and Chad Pecknold
HOLY WAR, HOLY PEACE: HOW RELIGION CAN BRING PEACE TO THE MIDDLE EAST by Marc Gopin
THE TENT OF ABRAHAM: STORIES OF HOPE AND PEACE FOR JEWS, CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS by Arthur Waskow, Joan Chittister, and Saadi Shakur Chishti
THE SHIA REVIVAL: HOW CONFLICTS WITHIN ISLAM WILL SHAPE THE FUTURE by Vali Nasr
JOURNEY OF THE JIHADIST: INSIDE MUSLIM MILITANCY by Fawaz A. Gerges
THE ETHICS OF WAR AND PEACE: RELIGIOUS AND SECULAR PERSPECTIVES edited by Terry Nardin
ISLAM AND WAR: A STUDY IN COMPARATIVE PERSPECTIVES edited by John Kelsay
ISLAMIC IMPERIALISM: A HISTORY by Efraim Karsh
THE GREAT THEFT: WRESTLING ISLAM FROM THE EXTREMISTS by Khaled Abou El Fadl
THE JUST WAR AND JIHAD: VIOLENCE IN JUDAISM, CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM edited by R. Joseph Hoffmann
JUST WAR, LASTING PEACE: WHAT CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS CAN TEACH US edited by Delores Leckey
WAR AND PEACE IN WORLD RELIGIONS edited by Perry Schmidt-Leukel
ISLAMIC ETHICS OF LIFE edited by Jonathan Brockopp
RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVES ON WAR edited by David Smock
SCRIPTURES IN DIALOGUE edited by Michael Ipgrave
THE ROAD AHEAD: A CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM DIALOGUE edited by Michael Ipgrave
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Related Links:
Economist: "The ethics of war: Mind those proportions," July 27, 2006
Washington Post: "'Disproportionate' in what moral universe?" by Charles Krauthammer, July 28, 2006
Compassionate Listening Project
Children of Abraham Institute
Scriptural Reasoning Forum
Journal of Scriptural Reasoning
International Review of the Red Cross: "Judaism and the ethics of war" by Normon Solomon, June 2005
The New Republic: "War Fair" by Michael Walzer, July 31, 2006
The New Republic: "Faith Hill" by Yossi Klein Halevi, July 31, 2006
National Catholic Reporter: "Mideast crisis also sign of U.S. failure," July 28, 2006
Religion News Service: "Christian groups press for Middle East ceasefire" by David E. Anderson, July 27, 2006
Catholic News Service: "On eve of summit, pope says prayers for Mideast might be working" by Cindy Wooden, July 25, 2006
Guardian: "Blair dismisses archbishop's ceasefire call" by Oliver King, July 21, 2006
Archbishop of Canterbury: BBC interview on Middle East situation, July 21, 2006
Jewish Weekly: "For Israelis, how far to go?" by Michelle Chabin, July 21, 2006
BBC News: "Who are Hezbollah?", July 13, 2006
Washington Post: "Muslims and Jews: Common Ground" by Robert Eisen, May 9, 2006
The Jerusalem Post
Forward: "War on Two Fronts"
Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life: "Islam and Democratization in the Middle East," April 27, 2005
Journal of Lutheran Ethics: "Intepreting the Islamic Ethics of War and Peace" by Sohail Hashmi, February 2003
Santa Clara University: Markkula Center for Applied Ethics: "Ethics and War in Comparative Religious Perspective" by David Perry, April 2, 2000
"Cross Meets Crescent: An Interview with Kenneth Cragg," Christian Century, February 17, 1999
My Jewish Learning: "The Ethics of Jewish War" by Michael Walzer
Informed Comment: Thoughts on the Middle East, History and Religion by Juan Cole
George Mason University: Center for World Religions, Diplomacy and Conflict Resolution
U.S. Institute of Peace: Lebanon and Israel
American-Arab Discrimination Committee
Shalom Hartman Institute
St. Ethelburga's Centre for Reconciliation and Peace
Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding
Churches for Middle East Peace
Internationial Prayer for Peace
Hartford Seminary: MacDonald Center for the Study of Islam and Christian-Muslim Relations
Interaction: Crisis in the Middle East
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