Jamie Rubin:
Alexander Stille, thank you for joining us.
Alexander Stille:
Thanks for having me.
Jamie Rubin:
We've just seen in our film a powerful example of how Silvio Berlusconi, the leader of Italy, controls, directly or indirectly, 90 percent of the TV in Italy. We've seen trials stopped and charges of corruption. But what really is the threat Berlusconi poses to Italian democracy?
Alexander Stille:
Well, I think in the world we live in where television is the principal source of information for most people, it really affects the balance of the democratic process. The fairness of the democratic process. And the fact that Berlusconi can really shape the way in which events are portrayed and the way he, himself, is portrayed makes a huge difference. He, for example, on his own stations which dominate 45 percent of the market --
Jamie Rubin:
Those are his private stations?
Alexander Stille:
His private stations. 40 percent of the sound bytes on all news programs show Berlusconi speaking to the public. On the public airwaves, he speaks more, five times more, than any other political figure. You can't buy advertising like that. And then, of course, he's also in a position to buy advertising. His opponents, for example, in the 1999 European elections didn't buy any advertising at all, because the only place they could buy advertising was on his private networks. So you have an unequal competition. It's like playing on an uneven playing field. Someone compared Berlusconi's position to starting a soccer match with a three-goal lead. It may not be that great, but even a one-goal lead is obviously going to lead to unequal results.
Jamie Rubin:
But when you look at the practical consequences of Berlusconi's taking power in Italy, has he been good for Italy? For their economy? For their reputation in the world? What are the practical consequences of Berlusconi's leadership ability?
Alexander Stille:
Well, I think part of the problem is that because this is such a kind of personalized style of government the things on Berlusconi's political agenda that have really received attention and energy from his party have been his personal interests. During the campaign of 2001 he talked about a lot of issues. About getting the Italian economy started, creating jobs, public work programs, etc. But the things they have thrown all of their energy into are immunity laws for Berlusconi, watering down the criminal-justice system to keep him and his associates out of trouble, and the conflict of interest law that allows him to keep his business enterprises intact. Last summer the Italian Parliament worked around the clock and was held into their summer vacation in order to pass one of these criminal-justice laws. That's where the energy is going. It's not going toward a lot of these other things. Everyone agrees that some of the reforms that Berlusconi has proposed and others proposed -- for the Italian economy and even the Italian justice system -- are needed, but they tend not to get done because the energy is going toward these other things.
So I think that having somebody who has such an incredibly high stake in the way government operates, and the way it affects his business, has a way of distorting the legislative agenda in a way that's been very detrimental to Italy.
Jamie Rubin:
But have the Berlusconi-led, Parliament-passed, laws been harmful to Italy? Have they done any harm? Or have they just been so busy protecting him that they haven't been able to get any business done?
Alexander Stille:
Well, there are a couple of ways in which I think it has harmed Italy. For example, you take the fact that the average criminal trial in Italy lasts twice as long as it did ten years ago -- because of reforms that have been made to the Italian judicial system. Not all of those reforms were done under Berlusconi, but they were, for the most part, endorsed by Berlusconi and pushed by his party. So that the criminal justice system, as a whole, is being gummed up by the needs of one individual to protect himself and a lot of his closest friends in trials. And that, obviously, has a harmful effect. Everyone understands that in a modern economy -- transparency, accountability, a working justice system are part of having a functioning, modern society. And one important part of Italian society is not working well. Berlusconi, of course, is in the media business, in the information business. In the new economy that we all live in, information is a huge part of the economy. He not only owns TV stations, but owns mutual fund companies. And other information businesses. If somebody has a monopoly position, and wants to keep that monopoly position, it means that you are effectively shutting out competition from other sources. And, despite the fact that Berlusconi pays a lot of "lip service" to being a free marketeer, you have nothing close to a free market in Italy in the businesses where he's present. And he's present almost everywhere. So I think that's a very, very unhealthy situation for Italy as a whole. And a reason why somebody shouldn't have so much public and private power together.
Jamie Rubin:
But in the criminal justice area, is it already clear that his gumming up the criminal justice system has caused crime to increase, for example, in Italy?
Alexander Stille:
Well, there are areas where it has increased. And it's certainly true, for instance, that when you talk to prosecutors that work on Mafia cases -- as I've done -- their job is a lot harder than it was six or seven years ago. Berlusconi, for example, was accused by several Mafia witnesses of ties between his companies and members of organized crime. Berlusconi's people then pushed for a law that would limit the use of testimony by Mafia witnesses and would greatly reduce the benefits to Mafia witnesses. That obviously -- leaving aside the merits of the cases involving him -- makes it much more difficult for people to gather evidence in Mafia trials. And the changes in the criminal justice system has made it very hard to win cases.
Jamie Rubin:
So you would assert that the effort by Italian prosecutors to combat the Mafia, combat organized crime, and to break it up, has been harmed by Berlusconi's role?
Alexander Stille:
I would say it's been retarded by it. And I'm not even saying that's intentional. I'm just saying that there is a kind of "ripple effect" in the criminal-justice system that has negative effects. And that's not to say that there aren't genuine reforms; that there aren't abuses of justice in Italy that Berlusconi and his people have pointed out. They do exist. But, unfortunately, I think the thing to understand is, you can't be a defendant and re-write the justice laws of the country at the same time. Your position as an interested party causes you to make misjudgments.
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