July 18, 2002: Ambassador Steven Pifer discusses the war in Chechnya with host Daljit Dhaliwal.
Daljit Dhaliwal: Ambassador Steven Pifer, welcome to Wide Angle. Now, you're the State Department's Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian affairs. Connect the dots for us: how does the war in Chechnya impact on us here in the United States?
Steven Pifer: Well, the concern we have about the conflict in Chechnya is first of all humanitarian. What you have there is a tragedy. It's a tragedy for the Chechens, you've seen thousands of people killed, the destruction of Grozny, hundreds of thousands displaced.
It's also a tragedy for the Russians. And where it impacts on the US-Russia agenda is a problem. It's something that we talk about a lot with the Russians. The President raises it regularly, Secretary Powell raises it regularly. It's something that we would like to find a way to encourage the Russians first of all to end the human rights abuses that we see in the security sweeps, and second, try to find a negotiated settlement because we don't think this can be solved militarily. And until there's some progress on that it's going to continue to be a difficult issue in the US-Russia relationship.
Daljit Dhaliwal: And there's lots of very interesting issues that I want to try to come back to a little bit later on.
Steven Pifer: Sure.
Daljit Dhaliwal: But why does Russia care so much about holding on to Chechnya? I mean, why does this small piece of territory matter so much to them?
Steven Pifer: Well, I think the Russian concern is one, to protect Russian territorial integrity. And they don't want to see one bit break-off, because it might encourage separatists elsewhere in Russia. So they're very much focused on preserving Russia within the borders of Russia after the breakup of the Soviet Union.
Daljit Dhaliwal: And I should say, this is something that we support. We support Russian territorial integrity. We don't agree that the Chechens or other separatist groups have a right unilaterally to break away from Russia.
Steven Pifer: You don't think it's an independence movement? I mean, it does after all have the popular will of the people behind it similar to the situation that we see with the Palestinians.
Daljit Dhaliwal: I think it's a situation which is fairly complex. There are certain aspects pushing for independence and separatism. Our view is that these are issues that can be dealt with maybe later down the line. The focus now really ought to be to find a way to bring the fighting to an end, and that means getting some dialogue going between the Russians and the Chechens.
Steven Pifer: So the US position isn't opposed to independence, eventually at some stage maybe further down the road for the Chechen people.
Daljit Dhaliwal: If it's mutually agreed by the Russians and the Chechens, it's an issue that they need to decide together.
Steven Pifer: So we're not talking about any sort of status which involves self autonomy; we're talking about full fledged independence, a proper state for the Chechens.
Daljit Dhaliwal: Well, some Chechens wanted that. What happened is, after the first conflict in Chechnya, which ended in 1996, basically the Russians and the Chechens reached what I think was a wise decision. They said, let's put this issue of Chechnya in its final status off for five years and work on some other questions.
Steven Pifer: And that, I think, is a sensible approach. But we don't agree that the Chechens can unilaterally leave Russia.
Daljit Dhaliwal: So in the meantime the war, this brutal bloody war that we've seen in our film, continues for five years. But we also have a very important relationship now with Russia. They are our ally in the war against terrorism. But it's also a very sensitive relationship. Isn't it the point that actually we can't bleat about Chechnya that much, we can't get in their faces about Chechnya in the way that perhaps you would like to?
Steven Pifer: Well, I don't think that's quite true. The US-Russia relationship has developed in a very positive way over the last year, and increasingly we're partners. We're partners in the struggle against international terrorism, we're partners in reducing strategic offensive forces. We're partners in trying to promote a solution in the Middle East.
Daljit Dhaliwal: So we're finding ways increasingly where we can work together. But the relationship that we have with Russia and the relationship that the President has with President Putin is also one where we can talk about difficult questions.
Steven Pifer: And for example, when President Putin was here, when he was in Texas in November, the President raised our concerns about Chechnya there. That issue came up in Moscow when...
Daljit Dhaliwal: What particular concerns would he have raised about Chechnya, can we be...
Steven Pifer: Well, the two main concerns that we have about Russia and Chechnya are first of all, the human rights abuses. And our concern being that as Russian security forces conduct these security sweeps in the area, we all too often hear reports of summary executions, arbitrary detentions, beatings and such.
Daljit Dhaliwal: Also torture as well, allegations of torture...
Steven Pifer: There are lots of these allegations. Now, to be fair, I mean, this is coming both ways. And certainly there are an equal number of allegations about how the Chechens behave. But that doesn't excuse the Russians. And our message to the Russians is, first of all, you need to maintain discipline over your forces. And second of all...
Daljit Dhaliwal: Are they out of control?
Steven Pifer: In some cases, I mean, when you see these sorts of abuses you have to ask that question. And the second point is that when these abuses are committed, there needs to be an effort to hold those responsible accountable. And this has been a big part of our message to the Russians.
Daljit Dhaliwal: The second main message has been we don't think you can solve this militarily. This conflict has been going on now for almost three years. It's hard for us to see an end in sight.
Steven Pifer: And we think it's important not just for Chechnya but also for Russia, to start a dialogue and try to find a negotiated settlement, because that's the way we think this problem can be resolved, not by fighting which we fear means conflict into the indefinite future.
Daljit Dhaliwal: I want to come back to the global war against terrorism and post September the 11th...
Steven Pifer: Right.
Daljit Dhaliwal: It has become increasingly harder to engage Russia over the issue of human rights abuses committed by soldiers in Chechnya. Isn't there a sense that we really have given Russia a pass from this because they are our allies?
Steven Pifer: I disagree with that, because again, the President raised it in November, the President raised it again with President Putin in Moscow. Secretary Powell raises it regularly with Foreign Minister Ivanov. And when Secretary Powell was in Moscow in December, he had a fairly extensive conversation on this with President Putin. Deputy Secretary...
Daljit Dhaliwal: What are we saying to them there?
Steven Pifer: Again, it's the two main messages. This military solution isn't going to work. There needs to be a negotiated solution. And you need to do something about the human rights abuses.
Daljit Dhaliwal: Okay, we talk about a negotiated solution. There have been some signs of optimism that the Russians and the Chechens might come together and talk. There were some meetings, but it all seems to have sort of faded into the background again. Where are we right now with the peace talks?
Steven Pifer: Well, in late September in a speech President Putin seemed to open the door a bit for negotiations. And he seemed to draw a distinction between the international terrorist groups in Chechnya and acknowledged that there were some historical roots to this conflict.
The Chechens, the moderate Chechens, led by former leader Aslan Maskhadov responded. There was sort of an effort to try to engage. And there was in fact a face-to-face meeting between a senior Russian representative and a representative of Maskhadov in November.
This gave us some encouragement. We were very hopeful that this might lead to a continuing dialogue that could find a way to end the fighting. But unfortunately we haven't seen any follow up to that meeting which took place in November.
Daljist Dhaliwal: What happened?
Steven Pifer: We don't have details on the conversation. It was one meeting, it took place over the course of the day. We were hopeful thereafter that there might be some kind of a continuation, but we haven't seen that happen.
Every now and then we hear suggestions there may be some kind of back channel conversations, but so far in terms of looking for the dialogue, which we think is the key missing piece in this conflict, we really can't find it.
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