Daljit Dhaliwal: Well, with his background in the KGB he's got to be on top of the situation. He's a military man in some respects, isn't he?
Steven Pifer: I think so, but I think it's also important to understand the situation there in Chechnya. And I'm not saying this to justify the behavior of the Russians, but you do have Russian soldiers who are seeing very brutal tactics being conducted against them, mines, I mean guerilla wars tend to be the most brutal on both sides, and unfortunately that kind of activity feeds back and forth.
That doesn't justify it; we still think it's incumbent on the Russians, though, to maintain the discipline of their forces. And unfortunately, that's not happening to the degree that it should.
Daljit Dhaliwal: Russia describes the war in Chechnya as a war against terrorism. What's the US's position on that? Do we agree?
Steven Pifer: We have a slightly different view. We agree that the Russians are fighting in Chechnya against some factions that are connected to international terrorism, but we would not consider the entire conflict to be a war against terrorism. It's a more complex issue.
Daljit Dhaliwal: Complex in what sense?
Steven Pifer: In that you have groups in there, and it gets into shades of gray between some of the tactics, but you have groups in there that are fighting that we don't see as terrorists, that have some legitimate political grievances that are going to have to be addressed. And this is why we want to keep pushing back towards getting some kind of a dialogue going.
Daljit Dhaliwal: But you're referring to the moderate Chechen nationalist...
Steven Pifer: Right.
Daljit Dhaliwal: ...as opposed to who else?
Steven Pifer: As opposed to groups, for example, the group that used to be headed by Khattab who we believe was killed several months ago, Shamil Basayaev we believe leads a group that probably has some connections to international terrorist organizations. So you have this variety of factions, some of which we think truly do fit the classification of terrorists.
Daljit Dhaliwal: And have we managed to prove links to al-Qaida?
Steven Pifer: We have some pretty strong suspicions in that regard. We do think that there were large sums of money, billions of dollars, that came in to support certain groups like the Basayaev and Khattab.
And we think some of those connections go back to groups that were operating outside of Chechnya and perhaps including al-Qaida.
Daljit Dhaliwal: So how many al-Qaida men are there fighting the war in Chechnya?
Steven Pifer: We don't have the information on that. I mean, it's not the total group of Chechens fighting; it's some subset of that group.
Daljit Dhaliwal: Were there Chechen fighters in the war in Afghanistan?
Steven Pifer: There were rumors to that effect; I'm not sure whether we ever got hard information on that.
Daljit Dhaliwal: So we can't say definitely one way or the other yes there were or no there weren't, but there's no evidence that exists to suggest that there were.
Steven Pifer: I can't give you a hard yes or no on that one.
Daljit Dhaliwal: But they're not being held in Camp X-ray?
Steven Pifer: I have to give you a no comment on that.
Daljit Dhaliwal: You mentioned the discussions that President Putin has had with President Bush and also with Colin Powell where the issue of human rights abuses has been raised with President Putin. What's their response when you tell them about this?
Steven Pifer: Well, they see this and have portrayed this as a war against terrorism, and they have tried to draw a parallel to the conflict that we have in Afghanistan with al-Qaida. We have just a very different view on that. And we haven't succeeded to date in persuading them that there really needs to be some kind of a negotiated settlement.
Daljit Dhaliwal: What do we need to do? How can we exert more pressure on the Russians to be a bit more forthcoming at least in the dialogue?
Steven Pifer: Well, I think it's an issue we're going to continue to raise, it certainly will remain on the agenda.
But I think this is a case where we can't overestimate how much leverage we.... We don't really have good leverage to effect this. And ultimately this is going to be a decision that the Russians the Chechens take.
Daljit Dhaliwal: Why don't we have good leverage if to some extent we are not saying that we've given them the green light on Chechnya, but we've certainly softened our rhetoric on Chechnya? So why don't we have leverage there?
Steven Pifer: Well, let me take issue with that. I don't think we have softened our rhetoric on Chechnya. I mean, the sorts of things that we are asking the Russians to do in terms of ending human rights abuses, holding people accountable who do commit abuses, in terms of looking for a dialogue, these are things that we were saying before September 11th.
The one aspect of our policy that's changed is we do now explicitly recognize that there are international terrorist groups operating in Chechnya. Rightly or wrongly before September 11 we didn't look at that, but as in many areas, September 11 really focused our attention.
Daljit Dhaliwal: So there's been no trade-off?
Steven Pifer: I think we've maintained a position that's pretty consistent with what we were seeing prior to September 11. And I think if you'd ask the Russians, the Russians certainly feel that they're hearing the same things, that they're hearing now is what they heard before, both in terms of what we say privately and publicly.
Daljit Dhaliwal: But before September the 11, would you have called the Chechen cause terrorist? Would that word have even been used, was that terminology there?
Steven Pifer: I think we would have said that some of the actions being committed were terrorist activities. And this goes back a number of years. For example, in 1995, led by Shamil Basayaev there was a raid where a group of Chechen fighters went into Budyannosk seized a hospital, took over 1,000 people hostage. And in the fighting that ensued, over 100 were killed. This to my mind is terrorism.
Daljit Dhaliwal: But in terms of the Chechen cause, has there been a change in positions on that?
Steven Pifer: In terms of...?
Daljit Dhaliwal: In terms of the Chechen cause that they're fighting for an independent homeland, has there been a change in US policy on that after September 11th?
Steven Pifer: I think the basic change in the policy has been the need to distance themselves from and exclude those elements that have connections to al-Qaida and other international terrorist groups.
Daljit Dhaliwal: The US also has a presence in Georgia. That's created a lot of suspicion in Russia. Putin basically has said, yes, you can come in, you can use Georgia to train the Georgian military in counter terrorist operations.
Steven Pifer: Right.
Daljit Dhaliwal: The proximity to Iraq hasn't been lost on this. What are your views on that?
Steven Pifer: Well, the situation in Georgia is really related to the question of the Pankisi Gorge, which is close to the Georgian-Chechen border. And there are probably between five and 10,000 Chechens in that gorge most of whom are refugees from the conflict. But we also do believe that there are certain groups in there connected to the mujahadeen or other international terrorist groups who are funneling people, funneling money, into groups fighting in Chechnya.
This is a problem. And the Russians have told us this is a problem. And we agree. What we told the Russians is, you should not take unilateral military action, you should not take military action to address this problem. It's a problem for Georgia to solve.
And the purpose that we now have American military trainers in Georgia is to help Georgia develop the capacity so that the Georgians can themselves go in and reassert control in the Pankisi Gorge.
Daljit Dhaliwal: Why isn't it a matter for the Russians when what happens in Chechnya is an internal matter but what happens in Georgia isn't an internal matter, why do we have to have US involvement here?
Steven Pifer: Well, we think because of the complexities of the Russian-Georgian relationship we don't think it's a good idea for the Russians to take military action to address the Pankisi Gorge.
Daljit Dhaliwal: You're talking about Russian support for Abkhazia?
Steven Pifer: No, in this case, I'm talking about unilateral Russian military action in Pankisi. Again, what we are trying to do is encourage the Georgians to resolve that problem.
And your reference to Abkhazia, I mean, that sort of points to some of the complexity of Georgia where you have Abkhazia, a separatist region which is broken away or is trying to break away from Georgia, where the Russians have a presence there as peacekeepers basically trying to maintain a line of control between the Georgians and the Abkhaz. But again, against that backdrop, we don't think Russian military action in Pankisi would help the situation.
Daljit Dhaliwal: The Georgian army really is a ragtag army that has to be built up from scratch. What happens if they are unable to bring the situation in Pankisi under control? Isn't there a danger there of mission creep that American forces could be drawn into the war ultimately in Chechnya?
Steven Pifer: Well, I think we're going to be very careful about that. We're very mindful of keeping our mission focused on a particular objective. In this case, the objective is training the Georgians so that they have the capacity to do this.
And we have a very thought through program that we refer to as train and equip which we think is going to give them both the knowledge of the tactics so that they can go and conduct these operations, but also the equipment so that they can do it themselves. And from our perspective, from the Russians' perspective, we think letting the Georgians do it is the right way to go.
Daljit Dhaliwal: And what is the timeline on that operation? What if it needs to change?
The operation itself, our first trainers began to arrive in May. It will take some months. I mean, this is not an easy operation building this capacity.
We have tried also, you referenced the concern on the part of the Russians about this American presence there. We have tried in this case to be extremely transparent with the Russians in terms of letting them understand roughly the size of the training mission, how long, what we're trying to do.
So the Russians realized that we're there simply to help the Georgians acquire the ability to deal with the problem in Pankisi.
Daljit Dhaliwal: But nevertheless the US establishing a new political presence in the Caucasus hasn't been lost on a lot of people. What's your view on that?
Steven Pifer: I think that there are some in Russia who still tend to look at the world through Cold War stereotypes, and they see this as a threat.
President Putin doesn't. When President Putin was asked about this I think he made it fairly clear that he understands the rationale, he understands the limitations that we've imposed on this presidency, and he's not objected.
And again, part of the reason why we've tried to be so transparent with the Russians is that the Russian government understands exactly what our trainers are there to do, and that there are no misconceptions.
Daljit Dhaliwal: So once the training is over, that will be the end of the operation?
Steven Pifer: Once the training is over, we are then at that point assume that the Georgians will have the capability to go in and deal with the problem. And that should resolve this issue.
Daljit Dhaliwal: And if they don't, Putin could ask the Americans to stay and maybe get involved?
Steven Pifer: I think that would be unlikely, and I'm sure, you know, we're very mindful about how we want to handle our presence there.
Dajit Dhaliwal: But that is a situation that could realistically speaking could...
Steven Pifer: Well, I think that's a hypothetical question. We think that the Georgians, once they have the training and the equipment, are going to have the ability to do it themselves. And we've had some fairly extensive conversations with the Georgians about this.
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