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August 7, 2003: Jorge Castañeda discusses the power shift in Latin America with host Mishal Husain.
Mishal Husain: Dr. Castañeda, welcome to WIDE ANGLE. One of the things we saw in that film was the rise of the indigenous movement in Bolivia as a political force. Why is it that you think that's happening at this particular point in time?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, I think it all goes back to 1992 when the 500th anniversary of the discovery or conquest of America took place. At that time, a lot of commemorations, celebrations, condemnations of that date took place. And indigenous peoples' movements began to emerge as political factors either in countries where the indigenous population really is a majority, mainly Guatemala, to a lesser extent Bolivia, and even in countries where there's a small minority like México or, much smaller, in Brazil. So I think this began in 1992 and, increasingly, it has grown because the indigenous peoples in Latin America, differing in each case, have a case. They have been discriminated against. They have been excluded. They are impoverished. They have a case. They have become increasingly aware of the case they have, and they have drawn increasing sympathy throughout society.
Mishal Husain: So you think it's a sustainable movement, it's not just a reaction to discontent? Economic discontent?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, it certainly is partly that. For example, in the case of México, this had to do with NAFTA [North America Free Trade Agreement] coming into law in 1994, and coffee prices being very low. Very specific issues, on occasion, can be a detonator, but I think it certainly is a sustainable trend in Latin America absolutely.
Mishal Husain: It is interesting to look at someone like Evo Morales, who we saw in that film, who was dismissed as a marginal figure and then almost won the presidency.
Jorge Castañeda: Well, I think something like that has happened in other countries, in Ecuador up to a point and certainly in México. No one ever thought that an indigenous peoples' movement like the Zapatistas and Subcomandante Marcos could draw the attention and be as central a figure and factor in Mexican politics as they were for a few years. This has been surprising, but, actually, if you look back on it, it makes a lot of sense, particularly in the case of Bolivia.
Mishal Husain: Do you think that movements like this, now that they are entering the political mainstream, are actually a threat to the United States in the way that they're challenging the establishment in Latin America?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, I think there's two ways of viewing these movements. One is as an anti-systemic, anti-globalization, anti-establishment series of movements. That's one way. Another way is to view them as movements that defend a very specific cause, with very specific demands, which can be couched in very ideological terms or not, but at the end of the day really are, so to speak, single-issue lobbies. I think the movements try to present themselves as the former, but I think they really are much more the latter. And what that means is at the end of the day, they do not represent a threat either to the United States or to the status quo in Latin America. They represent a legitimate cause, a legitimate grievance, a legitimate demand with which through democracy, through legislation, through protest, through mobilization can be addressed little by little.
Mishal Husain: They do put into sharp focus, though, many issues including the crucial one of inequality, of financial inequality, which is a reality across Latin America, but particularly acute somewhere like Bolivia. Do you think that is one of their main functions, in a sense, in raising awareness of that rich-poor divide?
Jorge Castañeda: The rich-poor divide, but also the racist issue which is very important in many parts of Latin America, regional issues in some countries of Latin America, the indigenous peoples are very much concentrated in certain regions of the country which are particularly impoverished or particularly excluded. So, in that sense, they raise, yes, many aspects of the single issue of the exclusion or discrimination against indigenous populations. But these are demands that, through the democratic process that does exist now in Latin America, can be increasingly addressed. And, in fact, this is occurring in many Latin American countries.
Mishal Husain: Examples?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, in México, for example, the Fox administration approved an indigenous peoples' rights law at the beginning of the administration which was not exactly what the Zapatistas wanted, but was a huge advance in relation to what existed before. In other countries, in Perú, President [Alejandro] Toledo, who is of indigenous descent himself, has pushed through important legislative changes. In Colombia, dating back to the early '90s, a new constitution was drawn up, which specifically includes indigenous peoples' rights provisions and representation. So this is a process which is taking place in the overall context of Latin American democracy. Obviously the advances are insufficient. Obviously the solutions are not totally effective or adequate, but there is movement going on.
Mishal Husain: You've spoken about democracy in Latin America being under threat, that this is a crucial time for the democratic movement across the continent. Is that really the case that you think that there could be a real return to authoritarian rule? Is the danger as great as that?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, I'm not sure it's an imminent danger. It's not a clear and present danger, as the phrase goes. But certainly what is true is that, on the one hand, there is a feeling in Latin America that democracy has not delivered the goods, though it's not entirely clear what the goods were supposed to be. Because the advent of democratic rule and economic reform occurred at the same time in Latin America and because economic reforms have not delivered the goods, sometimes people blame democracy for the failure of economic reform to deliver the goods.
Mishal Husain: But it's fair enough to see them because they happened at the same time and because they were bundled together.
Jorge Castañeda: Absolutely.
Mishal Husain: It's fair enough, isn't it, for people to see them as --
Jorge Castañeda: It's logical. Fair or not, it's certainly logical and understandable, and that means that there is a certain, sense of disappointment, of frustration with the failure of the democratic rule to address the region's fundamental problems. That's a fact. Whether that leads directly to a collapse of democratic rule, I don't think so. I think we have seen many countries go through extremely severe crisis. And fundamentally, at the end of the day, democratic rule has remained intact. Perhaps the three best examples are Argentina, an extraordinary economic crisis or catastrophe from the end of 2001 through just recently; Venezuela, with the extreme polarization of Venezuelan society; and Colombia, with the virtual civil war occurring in certain areas of the country between the military and the guerilla groups. In the three cases, I wouldn't say that democracy is thriving. Clearly, there are problems. Clearly, there are obstacles and dangers there. But none of those three counties has fallen in or fallen back to authoritarian rule.
Mishal Husain: Doesn't a great deal depend, though, on economics delivering, because otherwise this discontent that people have on the bundling of the economic reality and the democratic protest is just going to continue?
Jorge Castañeda: Absolutely, I mean there is no way that democratic rule can survive in countries, like those of Latin America, with current degrees of inequality over a long period of time. You need to reduce those gaps between rich and poor, between black, brown and white, between town and country, between men and women, between the young and the old. The gaps in Latin America -- of course the ethnic gaps are even more important -- all of these gaps are so wide that unless economic growth begins to reduce them, over a long period of time it seems very difficult to even think of how democratic rule can endure.
Mishal Husain: These are obviously huge questions in how to address that economic divide, but I think some of the statistics are really, really striking. And one poll said that over the course of the last twenty years, the number of people below the poverty line in Latin America have almost doubled. How do you actually go about addressing the economic reality? Is it time for a major rethink of the free market reforms?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, there's two different ways of seeing this. There are statistics also that show that in relative terms the number of people below the two dollar a day poverty line has diminished in Latin America between 1980 and the year 2000 even if, because of population growth, the absolute numbers have increased. Statistics on all of these issues are never as clear cut as that, so it's difficult to really make a clear case one way or the other. What is certain is that with the exception of Chile, and perhaps the Dominican Republic, structural reforms of the economy in Latin America have not provided the fruits that they were expected to provide. They have not delivered the goods. And so there's a huge debate today in Latin America about whether the solution is more structural reform or to go back on it.
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Jorge Castañeda, México's Minister for Foreign Affairs from 2000 to 2003
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